Diana Chapman is a best selling author. Her book, The 15 Commitments of Conscious Leadership, is one of my all time favorites. I would underline that five times. It's one of my all time favorites. She is also an adviser and executive coach who has worked with over 1000 organizational leaders as well as a founding partner of Conscious Leadership Group. She's simply one of the best executive coaches and Silicon Valley and probably the world. Her best selling book has a great subtitle, a New Paradigm for sustainable Success, with the key phrase being sustainable success. Today I get a chance to talk with her about so many different topics. But they almost all lead back to that phrase sustainable success, really excited for the chance to chat with her and for how expensive it is to spend an hour with her. I'm really excited for you will to get some free insight from one of the people that simply simply one of the best executive coach is out there below the line is brought to you by play cast media. If you want the easiest way to set up a professional premium podcast from your home or office, go to play cast media dot com and get their premium podcasts in a box delivered right to your door.

It's everything you need for a premium podcast, all the equipment info that guides you in setting up everything you need. You basically clicked. Buy on their site and boom, your next step is basically clicking record. It's that easy. I'm recording this podcast, and what you hearing right now on play casts equipment and my voice has never sounded better. I can't stand my voice, but I could kind of stand it with play cast and their equipment they've given me Having a professional sound studio in your home or office has never been easier or more straightforward than with play cast. Go check them out. Play cast media dot com and tell them James Senior Let's play cast media dot com. So let's get into it, Johnny. Kick it with the music. This'd is below the line, but and we're live. Hello, Diana. How are you doing this early evening?

I'm great. I'm, uh I'm just happy to be here with you.

Likewise. That makes two of us and we're sipping on watermelon water. Today's crazy drink um Is watermelon water? No vowels spelled with no vowels. That is deliciously hydrating. Yeah. I haven't had a sip yet. How's it? Okay. Okay. Well, that's really sweet. I don't know if I'm a little sweet talk. I agree, but pretty good. Pretty good. We'll see chicken in a few minutes.

So, Diana, we were chatting just a few seconds ago about your telling me about. I think you said 15 years of work with any of grams. So what is the background on any of grams?

Okay, so we don't know for sure where the origins of EMI Graham come from, but we we think they're at least 3000 years old. I was sitting with archaeologist on a shuttle bus at airport. He said, I think it could even be older, but we know we're finding Theo. Any Graham models in Egyptian tombs were still finding more and more of them and old sights, and we think that they've come from these ancient people who were studying human beings and looking for what causes reactivity and a human being. And, you know, we came up at one point with the seven deadly sins, and so the any Graham is those seven deadly sins, plus two more. And so it's this interesting map that says we don't want to put you in a box. We want to show you you're already in a box that you don't see, and if we could help you see it,

we can help you get out of your reactive patterns. And by the way, we have a little map here with these lines. And if you follow these lines, it can help you get more in balance so you could be more present conscious and away. We go with the any Graham,

and so so it does have religious kind of undertones

to it, I would say spiritually more spiritual undertones than religious.

Of course, we're in California, so that is the preferred nomenclature.

Well, just meaning I don't think it's connected to Christianity or Judaism or something like that. I think it's something more universal that came

right, that's it is, you know. So I came across that I was telling you three or four years ago, and I couldn't tell if it was a no astrology or if it was Myers Briggs and it felt kind of like a little bit in between, um, and they're friends of mine that swear by and friends of mine that are like, No, there's no it is like, in fact, I think the ones that are turned off by it or turn out fight because it seems to be catching hold the last few years.

Taking off. Yeah, you know, it's probably the most valuable tool I have in my tool belt when I work with Founders Toe, help them learn how to be more present as leaders and create more effective relationships amongst co founders and other team members. So I'm a huge fan, and I would say it's made the biggest difference in my life, including in exquisite marriage and being a really, I think, successful parent by knowing the anagram types of my kids and my husband so and myself and them knowing mine and so and my friends and if my parents, my siblings, it's just it's greatly affected my own personal life. So I never give anything out yet it to the world that I don't first try on myself and make sure it's really valuable in my world before I use

it with the others. All right, Well, it's Ah, there's a good articulation of I think people skepticism my own skepticism around. It was very much off, like just not necessarily believing that we could be just put into one box and in it and that there's, you know, only so many makes and models of humans. But I e. I like the articulation of, um, it's time to put you in a box, but you're already in a box and you don't know it. And I think that just kind of map to my experience with it as, um as a three is my is my number and feeling like, Oh, this is a reaction like that is where it's in my reactive mode comes from, And yet what what's what number

are? I'm a type eight called The Challenger or the Leader and, um, and my type. The snake in the head of a type eight is much out. The world is a dangerous place. It's out to get you, so you better be strong and powerful and in charge, and then nobody can hurt you. And so my that snake can be always on the lookout for that. I think that's against you. Watch out, Watch out! Don't be vulnerable. Don't let him. They could hurt you. And so it's this constantly being with that voice that oftentimes I'm not even aware of. It's just so regular that it starts to become the background noise that I don't even notice anymore.

Interesting. And has it guided you or at least being aware of that box? Is that guy did you say, like, in the last two weeks?

Oh, yeah. Um, let's see, um,

either guided you away from, you know, a potential, you know, mishap or or has it led to a potential

miss? Yeah. What I would say is, um I had a situation happened where one of my colleagues was in conversation with one of my clients that I work with without me knowing it. And immediately when I first heard it, I got reactive and I had this year against me. Um, you're you know, you're not thinking of my best interests and you're the you know, you're somebody I gotta conquer now in squash. And I could feel that aggression kickin of wanting to stop and control something as if it's a problem so that I could catch it and go Hold on, Diana. There doesn't have to be a problem here, you know. Let's learn. Let's find out what happened. There is nothing that's dangerous or threat here.

And so then I could come back and speak more, Um, from curiosity versus reactivity and not be a jerk, basically. So eso both. I saw the reactive pattern kick in, noticed it could catch it and then shift it. And that's the whole point of any Graham is. Let's help you become aware except yourself. That that's happened doesn't have to mean something about you.

And then how do we shift interesting Well, in end, the how we got to know each other was through you, our coach, to some of the best founders I've ever ever met here in the Bay Area. And you also are co author of one of my favorite books on leadership. 15 commitments of unconsciously or consciously leadership. Um, and and it's something that I think a lot about in terms of conscious leadership in unconscious leadership and, um, and then 1/3 you know, Touchstone is also just below the line is similar. You all have a very different application of those three words. But it's the first time that I've ever heard of those three words is five years ago or so in your book, And so I want to touch on that in a second. But, um,

but I I'm fascinated by this you being an angiogram expert because I'm like, you know, casually tossing about cocktail parties. But you're an actual experiments. So, um, what have you noticed within founder work? Are there certain types of founders that there's a pattern that it's and they're typically one category or one number? And it's nine numbers for those that don't know it's nine Numbers numbers

one through nine. I see a lot of three founders. Ah, lot of seven founders. Lot of eight founders. Um,

is there any number that you don't ever

really see? Um, you don't see a lot of four founders and what what's for? A four is called the individualist or the artist. There are some Joe Green's dying being one of them, but you don't see them. You don't know who connected us, but you don't see a lot of them you don't see. You don't see a lot of two founders. Certain types not as

often. What's do? Do you know them? By heart of 123 Okay. Yeah. What?

What are they? Okay. So Type one is called the Reformer, sometimes called the perfectionist. But I like the reformer and the focus is on. Hey, everything could be better. How could everything be better tech to is called the helper? What's what's there? Snake the snake and then one's head says, You know, you're bad and corrupt. You gotta find a way to be good And there is a good and right way and go find it So they get very into the right way Integrity being, you know, doing they can see the world Very black and white reformer That's the reformer. Type two is called the Helper and the helper, the snake in the helpers head says,

You know, no one's gonna really love you just the way you are. You Why don't you take care of their needs and that that's how they get them to like you. So the helper gets very good at tuning in, and what do you need? And how can I support you? And so they tend to be in roles where they're they're offering a lot of support. Nurturing type three is thehe Cheever. The snake in the three

of you can diagnose me all you want. I think

you're three, but we'll see the three. The snake in the three's head says, You know you're not worthy. Just being you isn't enough. I need achievement. You need to produce and Crippen and achieve things, and then you'll have some worth. So

there's definitely completely identify with that and certainly yeah, early in my life. Um,

yeah, and all of us can a little bit because United States definitely used to be a very three culture. And so we all had achieve, achieve, achieve. It was very much a part of what we all grew up in and so interesting. So we all can relate to that a little more than maybe other types.

I see and and you can't have partial types you

can. Well, the truth is, we're all all of the types, so I have a little one and two and three. I have all of them in me so and some will be more relatable. And so it's yeah, so it's not uncommon for people to say, Oh, I can relate to that one in that one. But we're really looking at when you're most reactive. What's going on? What's the

threat? Mmm, okay. And so three would be just not achieving or the failure to

achieve. If you are failing, it's because none of us like to fail, of course. But for three, since my achievements are directly related to my worth. And that means if I failed, I am a failure. It feels very much like that's just been who I am. So I can't fail. So there's this really threat to failure,

and I I asked you just before I was like, We need to record this because I asked, Ah, can people change in their life? And can people move from one to

another? Yeah, the theory is no, you really do get a type. A reactive pattern develops as a child, and that reactive pattern is the one that you work with them through your life. You certainly can look different on the outside that you can change, but but the internal reactivity, if you're really gonna get stressed out, it typically goes back to us saying pattern throughout your life,

quipped I was like I think I'm the first person that's changed because I felt like I have. I feel like I have ah shifted from completely identifying as a three and then through. There's many different kind of influences. Um, I feel like I'm a seven and or was misdiagnosed as as a three. Yeah,

original. And you might really to both a lot and you know, But you might. But the key question is, when I'm most reactive wets the threat for three would be more a threat of not achieving. Whereas the seven be more a threat of missing out on something. Yeah, so sevens. Like cash. There's just something I know. I want it somehow out there. It's not here. And so the seven's always out seeking like a hungry ghost. That thing that will finally fulfill

them. Yeah. Okay, so we got reformer. 12 is helper three is achiever or performer, Achiever. Performer. Both of those

fours. Forest, the artist or the individualists. The snake says, you know, just kind of something broken about you. Uh, we can't you know, we don't know what it is, but it's broken, and it's never gonna get healed. So you know, Go find your own unique style of your own unique way of doing things. And that's what we'll be worthwhile for you. So in the individualist, then gets born from that mindset.

Interesting. I know, I know. I feel like I'm sure there's common feel. Like I know people in these different buckets. The individualist, um, the artist. I definitely know people in that in that bucket. A lot of musician friends. Yes,

in that bucket. Lot of highly creative people are in that bucket. And that's one of the, you know, one of the each snake and our head has a gives a superpower or gift. And so, you know, um, if you're broken, you know, you start to become more this kind of individual, creative, unique, you're willing to be more unique, and so creativity is more accessible. And so those folks have some incredible talent, often in the and the creative arts,

right? Yeah. Broken would be like the shadow descriptive term and unique Would B e a lighthearted on optimistic

view on that? Yeah. Yeah. Okay. And then 55 is called The Observer. You are, um, sometimes the investigator, like that term and the snake in the fives. Heads like everybody got the manual how to be human. But you, um you're gonna have to figure this thing out. Go learn everything you can about howto get along in this world, and then maybe you can figure it out. And so there's this deep, deep sense of I've got a coat, learn,

learn, learn And, of course, to be ableto belong to be able to understand how to do things, you know, toe toe, understand how to be and do here. And ah, and so creates the superpower of incredible intellectual capacities.

Interesting. Okay, is yeah, it's This is it's always fascinating when I go back through these and learn about them and and start to see which ones I identify with and which ones I just don't identify with, um hoping this is interesting for our listeners to. But all right, so six is

Type six is called the Questioner, um, or the skeptic. And the snake in the six head says, you know, you're not safe, and you know you can't trust you can't trust yourself and you probably can't trust others, so you're gonna have to anticipate all kinds of problems out there to make sure you can be safe. So creates a really super power for looking out for what could go wrong. Let's think about this. And so they're really great to have on a team. Six is because, you know, the three might say, Hey, let's go to achieve this And the six will say, Well,

wait a minute. Have you thought about this? This in this? That could go wrong And three was like, Well, no, I didn't think so much and keeps us from having pitfalls along the right. Okay? And okay. And then seven Type seven is called the Enthusiast or the adventurer, and the snake in their head says, You know that thing that you really want, It's not here. It's out there, Go get it and then you go arrive there and it's like, No,

it's not here a little bit. Keep going, keep going. And so it creates this sense of adventure and willingness to try a lot of things, but also kind of, Ah, unwillingness to just rest in the moment and recognize it's all here already.

Yeah, I definitely identify with with that when I feel like that's the one I've become over time, um and or just realized I was the whole time, but I total enthusiast down to I mean, like, the macro side of things. My first job out of college was in South Africa, and, uh, went from there to Silicon Valley and just never, never really. It didn't bother me at all to go chase adventure. Oh, it was always kind of call to adventure. And just to the micro sense, like, I'm total enthusiast.

I I love sharing things like the weird drinks, Yes or yeah, or it's ah, or it's, you know, my emails have way too many exclamation marks. Yes, and I've thought,

you know what? Maybe

I needed tone this down and I was like, no other room only tone it up. Life's pretty good. We should, uh we should, uh we should, you know, actually, or is just it was just natural to how I would talk. So I'd be like, Okay with this.

Yeah, seven's air. So optimistic and enthusiastic. And that's one of the gifts, too is like, hey, why suffer, You know, there's so much to be excited about. And sevens also have a great gift for change. You know, I can I can change on a dime. I'm finding the unknown. Um, because that adventurer has turned me into somebody who can adapt very quickly.

Interesting. And the type A is my type of the snake for the 70 said was Oh, not resting.

The one that says what you really want. It's over there. Go get it. So it's always, you know, hungry for something. It doesn't think it can get interesting. Okay. And then eight, type eight. And as I mentioned earlier, that's my type is you know, the world is a dangerous place. So me and Donny Trump, you know where type aids. So you gotta put up walls, and you gotta protect anything.

Oh, yeah. Really? Yeah. So we're gonna put up walls, We gotta get, you know, they're bad. They're gonna hurt us, You know, we can't trust them. And so we got to be powerful and in charge and strong, and you know that. Then we'll be safe. So it creates a lot of ah, very confident.

Could be narcissistic. Uh, you know, I've got it all figured out, right? Mindset. Interesting. And then type nine is called the Mediator or the peacemaker and the snake in the nines head says, Yeah, you know, nobody really cares what you know what? That you're here, what you have to say. It's It's not really critically valuable. So can you just kind of back up into the blend into the corner and don't make any conflict? And we can all have some.

We can all get along, and that's probably the best route for you. So the nine can then start to suppress their opinions and try to just keep harmony. And, of course, it creates a superpower of helping others be able to create peace amongst themselves. And when they don't get bitten by their snake, they can come out and speak their own opinions and no be willing to have some conflict.

I have so many questions about this, I'll tryto contain them within just a few. But one is, um, is where is it a genetic route? Is it a childhood experiential

route? There's still no Here's one of the criticisms about any Graham that I I understand, which is there's not a lot of science behind it right now, and so we don't know. Um ah, it's really Ah, it's a model that you try on and recognize. It has value because you say it does. And, um, but we don't have much research yet, but so far, at least amongst the BND Graham folks, it's probably your more genetically wired to be a particular type and then your environment at home. If you were raised in a pretty nurturing environment, then you're not gonna have the rial shadowy patterns of your type. But if you're a raise,

an environment that was stressful, then you'll see more of that. The reactive patterns showing up so likely I had probably a more nurturing childhood than Donald Trump. And so he has more of that shadow than Ideo because of the pressures and what it was going on in his life versus mine as a kid. So we both have the same type, but we might. Our reactivity in our type will be different based on environment,

okay, And so, um, you're saying there you notice patterns with founders to be which which ones again? Three

often found it well. It's getting more and more varied, but it's been a lot in the past. A lot of organizational leaders were three sevens and eights more so than the other types. And it doesn't mean that any of those types could be in that role and be founders. But there tends to be certain types that are more likely to what those roles or go after

those roles, right or be insecure enoughto to push themselves to into those roles because they feel like it's gonna serve them. Yeah, some some form. Yeah, yeah, the, um that's really yeah. I have not heard that that in depth explanation of them. And I literally just like, well, Google, you know, the different ideograms at a dinner party. And, you know, people chat about the numbers that they think they're they are.

But really, it's It feels like it's come out of nowhere in the last three years. What? Why is it being picked up? Well, so so quickly these

days, you know, it got it got popular in the U. S. Because the Jesuit priests learned about it from some of their cohorts and other parts of the country in the world, and they it was like this little secret thing they had that made them really good at counseling their parishioners because if they could know their Internet, any Graham type that could help them with their stress with the reactivity. And then it kind of spread from there in the US Um, and it's just I think, uh, it's it's an international phenomenon right now. It's not just happening the US that it's getting popular all over the world. And in fact, in Northern European countries, many of the leaders would all have any Graham coaches is just part of the culture there. So, um,

but it's ah, I think it's being tried on and it's it's working particularly, I think, any grand being brought into it. Startups and organizations. And one thing people say reliably is it has built so much more empathy and compassion on our team for one another. And that's really helped in our ability to collaborate and listen and and, uh, it array together

when it introduces this Ah, this massively significant concept that I think I know for myself. It took me a long time. To even even, I think partially appreciate is that we're different.

Yeah, we are

way offer. It's so different. So like, I think we it's so obvious to say that. And yet it is a really big thing to to accept that people are not like me.

Yeah, I remember I was parenting my daughter the way I would want to be parented right, and it really wasn't working for her. She's a type four. So I went and found a four coach and I said, Tell me, what is it like, what before want. So she gave me all this advice, and I literally, like, went back to my daughter's bedroom. She was 10 at the time, and I almost said verbatim, what this coach had told me to say, and my 10 year old daughter looks me in the eye and says, I don't know who you're talking to,

but it's totally working. Keep doing it so well. And that was just the beginning of a real shift in my relationship because I didn't know she saw the world so differently from me or wanted a very different kind of parenting style than I did. So, uh, that was a game changer for us.

Well, and how do you coach, what's an example of how you'd coach a founder through through something we using an anagram kind of back backdrop.

Usually it's it's looking at, Um, yeah, like a lot of type threes will say I start getting anxious mid Sunday, thinking about the week coming up, and I'm not enjoying being with my family because I'm already worried about, like, all the things I got to check off my list when I go to work. And I'm so focused on that because of this reactive pattern of I got a cheaper, cheap achieve and so they don't know. That's why I got to achieve, achieve, achieve. So I helped them see. Can you see how there's such an attachment to being able to achieve and check these boxes off that? Then there's this anxiety that kicks in and that if you if you could relax the need to achieve, then you could enjoy your weekend finish up and you know, of course, prepare. But it doesn't have to be from this anxious place.

What are some of the ways that someone would be able to relax in that situation?

Well, a lot of its deep work of recognizing your worthiness. You have to come back and do the work of self acceptance that has nothing to do with what you've done or what you're doing to come back and be a human being and recognize that's enough

one of things that in that vein that's that kind of opened my eyes to what I really want in life, which is and maybe this is tied to my anagram. Or maybe it's ah, universal longing of connection and that achieving in a certain re away was actually leading to a lot of disconnection, the tactical disconnection working so hard and running a company and not being able to make all these important family moments friend moments but also disconnection of just

I think that's a universal amongst all the anagram types is we all want connection. I think that's just a very human. And and any Graham would just say, Here's the thing that takes you out of connection. So if you can wake up to that, then you create a life in which connection is a reliable experience,

right on achieving in many ways. Ah, now there's a great book. Ego is the enemy, and ego is slight. 10 General to that book is its total enemy to connection. It's like put this out in the world because I want you to accept me for as a three achieves. And those are the things that drop a lot of negative energy.

Yeah, I would say ego in reactivity is an enemy to connection ego itself. Not necessarily. But in reactivity, yes. I've got to ask Why the distinction? Well, egos are fantastic, you know, they're so intelligent. So we all have an ego primarily to keep us alive. Um, but it's also thoughtful about Hey, you know, if you want a critic connection over there, here's a couple things you might want to consider. So it from above the line,

I used a model. Yeah. Wait, we'll talk about that above the line. We're meeting from a from a relaxed state of presence. The ICO is a real help, and it's intelligent. And so, you know, I don't want to get rid of an ego. I don't want to stop an ego. I just wantto have the ego be something I can utilize to support me in creating what I want versus having the ego be running me out of a threatened state that causes me to to go away from the things I most want

Yeah, well, in touching on the below the line above the line within 15 commitments of one kind of conscious leadership, Um, I got the word unconscious. I

unconsciously, really, what's true is we are arm or unconscious than we are conscious. That really that's a great

no. And I want to talk about unconscious, I guess a little bit more than then. Um, you know, the former. But the, um the latter rather said the within the book is it Is this only a concept within 15 commitments? Or have you Have you guys been working around this?

This model is old. I don't know who originally started it. I learned it from gang Katie Hendricks, who were big teachers for me, but I know it came from someplace beyond them. So the model was just a simple line. And the idea is, in any given moment, you're either above a line in a state of trust or your beloved line in a state of threat. That's it. It's really simple. Either you're open and curious and want to learn or your defensive and wanting to be right and defensive. And ah, so my experience is is that we're biologically wired to go below line. It's natural and normal, and that doesn't mean anything about it's just that we're breeding humans and we go below line. But we have the power to shift from that state of threat to trust. And that's what those commitments are about. Is learning how to do that one

commitment at a time. Yeah, yeah, and I loved the visual. I remember when I was running tilt, I would look at the visual of of or you had this. Um, I love the visual in my mind, but you had this pamphlet of, like these the qualities you feeling below the liner above the line in the book talks quite a bit about as well. But the, um hey, I think you you had mentioned one point during either ah either in real life or is in the book that people spend 98% of the time or how much of that time to

be. I think I think my experience is that the average population spends 95% of their time below the line and fearful in a threatened state, you know, in some way, just like I'm concerned about deal like me. Am I safe? Do I have enough of everything? You know, uh, I want to control things, so I get scared. And then from that place, I behave in ways that cost me and other people. But there's also payoffs to behaving that way and, um, and thinking that way. And so what we're interested in is just helping people be able to recognize Where are you?

Are you in that state of threat, which isn't fine. And then can you have some compassion? You know, your human being You get scared, we all get scared a lot. And, um, can we let all these scared little ones be here? I spent the day to day working with a bunch of founders at 10. In the morning and 10 in the afternoon, and they would bring up different issues, and I'd say, Great. Can you just recognize you're scared? I'd say Yeah.

How old are you? How old's the scared one? I heard things like five. No, 7 12 16 You know, just a bunch of scared kids, and then ah, and then if you can be able to acknowledge your and a threatened and, uh except that scared one. Then you're available for a shift, and then we teach a lot around. How do you shift? Yeah,

well, the and I think that's part of the four big questions. Yeah, I think so. Yeah. We'll touch on that. Um, but this is this is, I think, for listeners just tow. Er, tease this out a little bit further. So you know, if if the majority of the average person's time and you said what did you give it? A number 95 for 75% of the time. But no one in that threatened or potential threat state it maps a lot too. This this idea that were just We are like sonar.

Ah, sonar machines in a submarine, just looking for threats, looking for them constantly. And And maybe it is because we're just so biologically wired to not die rather than biologically wired to live biologically wired to not die. Yeah, pretty different. And that day do not die is at the bedrock off off. Okay. Where their threats where their threats. And in in that in that conceptual realm, one of the things that I tried thio give Sue to other founders is um, your book, as well as another book called What Got You Here Won't get You There. I love that book, and it's a great combination.

It was a great combination for me because it was essentially saying, Look, you're 95% below the line has gotten you to this point It 26 27 and it may be has propelled you a little bit ahead of of, ah, certain people that you were at the starting block at the same time. And you can get completely hypnotized into thinking it's working for you. Yeah, and yet maybe it's driven by extreme anxiety. You know, my one of my best friends in the world, um, wakes up at 5 a.m. every morning, and in one level it's admirable. Except five, is at the office by seven first in the office and is done with his essentially his biggest tests of the day by 10 30. In many ways,

that sounds amazing. He's ahead off everyone else in the starting block, but he told me it's because he has such bad anxiety when he the tiniest better, waking up at five, he's like, Okay, I can't fall back asleep. And in many ways, it's not this admirable, productive ahead of everyone. It's driven by, um, yeah, by you know, this anxious from this anxious place and I think, similarly weaken and kind of Ah, zoomed out, thematic way. Think that we're in a place in life that maybe we feel is is important because of things that are actually just what got you here is actually gonna be the exact things that lead to you. Not

Yeah, I'm going to the next because those things work. But then you add on more responsibility or more pressure, and then those things don't work as well. And so you've got to be willing to let those go pull some new tools out.

Right? And that is Ah, nice. I love that kind of weaving of both books because it's basically like, you know, yes. You might have gotten to this place without knowing that you were 95% below the line. Yeah, that's great. That's looking to Ambrose. Yeah, so we'll be Well, thank you. Um, but it's a ah, your book. It really can stand on its own Is the 1st 1 that I do recommend to people So,

um, in that vein, do fewer toe spend 15 minutes, 10 15 minutes. Just talking about the concepts of the book. Um, for someone that hasn't heard about it. Okay, how would you How would you describe the the opus? That is 15 commitments of consciously. Okay,

so the opus is this. So we talked a little bit about the basic model, which is above or below the line as a as a basic premise. So the idea being, um, in any given moment, can I locate myself? So the first question all conscious leaders ask is, Where am I? Am I in a state of trust? Open, curious. Gotta lightheartedness about me, even dealing with serious situations. Aiken game a fivesome. Things I don't get caught in Like whereas when I'm below the line, I'm in a reactive state,

as I discussed earlier, and I start to get into an idea that life is happening to me when I'm below the line versus above the line. Life is happening by me. I'm the creator of this experience from above the line and below the line. Gonna know this experience is happening to me because you did that or that happened at the traffic or economy or whatever. And so, um, the first recognition, where am I? And then if I am beloved line? I'm in a state of victimhood and the state of victimhood we used. Cartman's

gotta says, Watermelon water's actually terrible. It's way too sweet. And it is. It is making it so sweet. It's making me cough. But now you're taking another sip. Alright, I have to challenge everything. Yeah. Oh, good call. Well, I've done my enthusiasts due diligence. It is not good to me, but Okay,

so, uh, even I'm in a state of victimhood. We use Cartman's drama triangle Cartman, the psychologist who studied how we're doing relationship and said most of us learned how to do relationship from a mindset of victimhood, which is either, bro. Where are a victim? You know, it's hard and I tried. I can't

three rolls victim, Villain, hero,

Exactly. Villain is blaming, You know, I should have done better. You should have done better. They should do better. There's something wrong. I point the finger. And then Hero's job is seeking temporary relief. I need it. I need relief, but just temporarily and ah so those. What people find is is that most of the issues that they're dealing with are all them running around that drama triangle. And so as long as you're in that triangle, you're not gonna solve your issues permanently, or if you're able to solve it, it'll shift to a different pattern. So you're going to still it be in the same something over and over again, and so

that probably and only see others as being in one

of those three exactly and causes. You know, there's a lot of payoffs for being in that drama trying, but there's also

a lot of costs. Well, any maps to every linear story in our in our code lines that were attuned to what in life is not a linear story and and yet totally maps two narratives that that you can either create for your own life or create for AA group psychology? Yeah, and you can be can be powerful.

Yeah, just look at all the big blockbuster movies. You know, the ones who make the most money have a big hero because there's a bad villain because its support victim and you know it makes a great story so highly entertaining, which is one of the big payoffs for being in the drama triangle. And then so you start to recognize Oh, yeah, I'm in the triangle. I'm in a state of victimhood and that's okay. I'm human being. I get scared and I can accept that That's the next question. And then am I willing to shift and, you know, Weeks had we know 15 commitments is a lot. We get it, Um, but what we gain Kenny Hendrix wrote the 1st 2 commitments, which the 1st

1 says, and

who are the? They are mentors of ours who runs something called the Hendrix Institute. They're both psychologists who left traditional universities to go create their own institution to explore, um, consciousness conscious relationship, uh, and somatic psychology, and so studied with them for long. 20 years, um and so they wrote the 1st 2 commitment. So the first commitment is I commit to take 100% responsibility for my well being emotional, mental, physical, spiritual and free up any blame and commitment. Number two, as I commit to let go of being right to being more open to curiosity and learning versus defending an opinion so they wrote those 1st 2 and you know they are the cornerstones. We would argue. Just work on those two and you're set.

Hey, do you mind repeating

those two? Sure. 1st 1 is commitment. Number one is I commit to take 100% responsibility for the circumstances of my life. My emotional, physical, spiritual. Ah, mental well being is mine to take responsibility for. And I don't blame when I'm taking responsibility. I don't blame myself or others. I am just more interested in taking a look at How do I create my results? And then commitment Number two is all around curiosity. So I commit to letting go of being right to being open more open toe learning than defending my opinion. So those are the 22 cornerstones and ah, people said great, but can you new ones that force like,

what does that mean? So the rest of the commitments are parsing that out more and putting more detail in about Well, it means take responsibility for feeling your feelings and having candor and not gossiping and having really clear agreements and appreciating and on and on and on. And so we just wanted to map the territory for people, like just to be more specific. So people could really understand If I did all these things, I would really know what it was to be present in the moment to be free

of threat. And so if you had 10 minutes with someone, would you just focus on the 1st 2?

Yeah. Yeah, well, it depends. You know, I'd say What's if I had 10 minutes with you? I might say, What's an issue going on in your life? And as I'd listen to you, I know I could hear what commitments were likely The biggest challenges for you and go go support

you with those. And does this only apply Mainly apply to professional pursuits?

No, it applies to all of life. So, you know, we're all above or below line in any given moment, whether we're with ourselves or anybody else, personally or professionally.

Well, let's let's do one. Okay. Yeah. I'll let you run a 10 minute. Okay. A little

10 minute little founder coaching session. Yeah. Okay. Good. So, um, tell me one challenge that you have been dealing with and certainly still currently are dealing with right now. It could be at work or personally.

Mmm. Well, personally, in this, the whole purpose of the podcast is extreme extreme candor and honesty. So, personally, the biggest one is my wife and I. We just had a miscarriage last week, and, um, so still dealing with just processing that it's been such a healthy experience. Um, and like most things you would not drop is unexpected but can be extremely grounding and and much good can come from them. I feel like that's That's the It's the path that it that will likely take shape in coming weeks, months, years, But going through

it right now. Yeah, and it sounds like you're being with it. And is there anything that is becoming is challenging or where you're feeling stuck because, um, is there a problem in any way around this issue? For you?

It's what to be completely, Honestly, it has not been a major. Um, the challenge is just being there for my wife, um, and, um, and us both being being able to balance processing and grieving. Um, but also trusting and letting go. Yeah, and so I'd say I bring it up because it's so top of mind, but I actually don't know if it's a major challenge. Um,

well, it sounds like, um, your in your heartbreak

you're letting go of a vision. That's a good way of putting it. Because that's what we have chatter about was, um, just it's one of the most painful things we can do is build out this future, some tiny bit of information. And you build out this future that then you especially as an optimist, he becomes so hopeful, enthusiastic about that future that then, yeah, it's re written nor taken away. Yeah,

the drop. Yeah, and so you're dealing with It's a death of, ah, literally a deficit of the person. And it's also a death of a whole vision of a life that you thought you were gonna have. So there's lots and lots of letting go on lots of grieving. And at the same time, what I hear is rather that you could go at the effect of that meaning like this shouldn't have happened and pour us and you know we can't be happy anymore, and you could go down that path. But what I hear is you're letting yourself fill your feelings and letting her feel her feelings and they're in waves. And you never know when the next one's coming. Just when you think felt them all here comes another, especially with grief like that. So can I be with the grief mine and hers and everybody else's and not use optimism to get away from grief, uhm, but to to be in a state of trust as we grieve and move through and let go and then open to what wants to happen next and sounds like that's what's happening. And there's an ache, right? Yeah,

but I I I hear three guidance on not letting optimism and or the ability to adapt quickly become young superpowers that are overused. He has its That is a very easy way that I could get away from grief.

Yeah, it's very easy to go. Hey, you know, Okay, we can go together. And it could maybe a way in which you could be, um, trying to get her to get away from her experience, because it might be difficult to watch her going through her grieving process. And then that spurs something over there. So right. Can you let her grieve as long issue once and needs to grieve and not make that mean anything and not need her to be any place other than where she is. Right? So that would be the practice for you. But it sounds like

he's been so inspired. Is she has been so strong through, um, throughout is, and then this is the first time she's gone through something like this, And, um, and even the first time to experience loss of life of some some form. She just had thio just reflecting over the weekend. She has never dealt with essence. So it is. Ah, but she has been so amazingly strong and strong, but also being strength to be able to go to that to that grief. Yeah, and give it space. But also strength, too. Laugh? Yeah, An hour

later. Yeah. And can you be a space in which all things actually can you be a space in which you could be laughing and grieving at the same time? Which seems like what? But can I have all of that there? And I think in the culture it's a missing experience for us to collectively grieve, support grieving, you know, we don't see a lot of grieving in the business world. It's one of my big passions is to help people feel it work. And, you know, there's deaths happening all the time at work with. I thought this baby was gonna take off at work, and here I have to close it down and you know it's or we thought we would have this amount of money by now. Or we thought we'd have this many users or a constant state of grieving. That's happening for lots of teams,

right? One of one of my previous guests, Eric Greece. Um, he's phenomenally phenomenally. Ah, wise leader, articulate author. And so those two things in mind for a really interesting an interview with him and one of the phrases that he used after a board meeting of getting something wrong that someone had delivered in the deck and it was wrong. And And he used this phrase that he went back to the person and said, You know, getting that wrong caused me psychological death. And it's so to your point. For about three seconds, four seconds, I was like, Okay,

that's no psychological death sounds pretty heavy and dramatic. And then, 2nd 5 second six. I completely empathized with that because I felt that in various versions that there's no other way. I mean, even a miscarriage is a psychological death or a death of a vision and future that you had in addition to, um, actual loss. So it's

Yeah, it's a thing. Hell, yeah. So it cries lots of patients, right? Yeah,

Well, the it's grief in business, I I actually have never heard those three words to

really know. Yeah, I work a lot with teens on. Um, can we be sad for a minute? And could we go around and say one thing? You're sad about it. It's so cathartic for people go. Yeah, I'm sad. I thought I'd have more engineers on the team, and it's been much more difficult to higher than I thought, and I'm really sad about it and somebody else, You know, I'm I'm said. I thought I thought we'd have way more users by now. And I had this whole vision,

and it's much, much more challenging than I thought. Um, you know, we lost so and so who went over to Google, and I'm still really grieving the loss of that Maty member and so just letting people acknowledge there's loss that's regularly happening, you know, even like Oh, we used to have the food be delivered this way. And I love that Cater. Know it sounds silly, but those air, you know, it's just does air there. And if we don't let this feelings come through, we have to stuff them. And one of the things that I think is causing some of the greatest burnout and exhaustion in the Valley and beyond is people's unwillingness to, or a knowingness to feel and feel their feelings and speak their the words that they're not speaking and that that withholding thoughts and feelings is exhausting and that that's actually creating Maur off the burnout than the actual work that they're doing.

Interesting. What do you mind telling me more? When did you start to recognize this as a as a pattern, and what do you mean by giving it space, as as an antidote to to, um,

well, we're going beans. We have feelings, you know, And we So there's, you know, all kinds of feelings out there. We like to break them down to five. Core feelings were not experts on this

as far as these other who's going as well is it?

Me? Is the conscious leadership group. So we say sadness, anger and fear pretty universal. Most people would say those air primary feelings enjoy, and then we add sexual feelings in which is very rare. But there's a reason why we do that. So we have these

primary food is

the reason The reason for this is because,

and by the way, I remember that from the book Actually remember being, Ah, it's That is why I love this conversation because it's just the entire This entire interview is touching on things that are just so blatantly, obviously there, so biologically wired to be there. Yeah, and yet we don't acknowledge it. It's like, not just act like that's not

Yeah, we're sexy human beings, you know, where sex and we have a lot of sexual energy and particularly, I think a lot of founders run it on the sexual energy. It's why they want to create, create their new babies, and then I would have found these.

I totally think I was, uh, you know, I think some my favorite founders, they'll talk about the base motivations of why they want to start there. Yeah, but he's one would be, like, wanting to start one because they're friends. Started one and they were jealous. Yeah. Okay, I'm gonna start a company. Let me figure, you know, that kind of removing themselves from this whole like, uh,

it's only a social venture that happens. Toa potentially be worth a $1,000,000,000. They're just my base motivation at 24 is my friend started company, and I want it. I was jealous. Mine, I think, was, um was I just felt like, Oh, this is gonna be a shortcut, huh? And, boy, was I so wrong about that? The I think another base motivation at least early on to one to achieve was was never really on the fringe of the cool crimes ever really in the cool crowd.

Very popular reason. And and the cruel crowd I mean, the on Lee, the on lee, the below the line version of cool cut is you want to be liked by the other sex or just the sex that you're attracted to. That's what you you're craving to be accepted by the two people you have a crush on neither of them like you. Shit. I need to go remake myself. Yeah, I'm gonna show them that they're wrong. Like it's those air, the basement.

Say how sexy I am now. I said founding. I'm a founder now, bitch.

No, Totally. And it is, uh, you would eighth grade. It was like, All right, I'm not part of the cool crowd. I'm not the best athlete. I'm gonna freaking winnin and school. Yes, I'm going to go win in business or life

a mathlete, perhaps. Write your total math. Yes. Yeah. And so these feelings, we have these feelings and these feelings arise throughout, you know, daily lives. And they're your work. And, um, one of the things that we support leaders, Innis and Founders is how do you feel and do that in a way that's friendly to those around you? And so, you know, well,

we pretty much legislated anger and sexuality out of the workplace because we didn't know how to feel them correctly in a way that was friendly. And so we just decided to get him out of here. But that doesn't work. Because how you supposed, you know, the high side of sexual energy is. It's highly creative. It's highly innovative. So it's it's nuts to say, Well, we want to disrupt technology or we want We want, you know, create something really cool here. But let's not be sexual. It's like Wait

a minute. And when you say sexual, what do

what do you mean? What I mean is, Can I run sexual energy through me? Meaning it doesn't have to be. I'm not talking sexual energy like Dean Sexy, although that's possible. But it's about that that zing that juice that that thing that gets you turned on, you want to create that. It's a It's a driving force of creativity that can be channeled through, you know, intercourse, sexual involvement with somebody. But that's just one part of a much greater expression of sexual creative energy. So in some organizations, they don't want to call it sexual energy. We say Fine, Call it creative energy.

And so well, I guess sex is the ultimate creative Yeah,

it ISS and it's that it is the creative act, and anger is often the destroying act. You know? Hey, what's no longer of service here for me and my people, that's really the essence of intelligent anger. And so these two forces are very powerful. And if we can utilize them and harness them, we can create really cool stuff and evolved in significant, meaningful ways.

So you're basically so you're saying they're not based level. They're just natural levels of motivation,

just part of the system. You know that you can't control having these feelings. They arise.

Well, in touching on that topic, I couldn't agree more than this. So much for a dialogue or perspective today, Um, the best way they like the best way at suit too articulate is like is like rearranging the topsoil on a 3000 foot mountain. And it's like you can there's three feet atop so you could try to change the shape of things by legislating anger away so no one can have an outburst. That then leads to the god forbid psychological unsafe environment. Because someone had an outburst. I don't wanna touch on why I say, God forbid, but the or just okay, we're not gonna have any affection because that could lead to the shadow side of the dark side of of sexual energy. And and you can say those things But yeah, like you, it's like rearranging the topsoil on this biology that is 3000 feet deep of tectonic forces that it's It's like good luck.

I remember somebody asking me, Aren't you appalled by the sexual, um, harassment in the workplace? And I said, No. Actually, I'm in awe that there's not more of it, because if we really are honest about the biological wiring Sze of ourselves, you know many of us walk around just thinking about sex a lot. And the fact that we're not acting on it and not doing anything in the workplace is phenomenal, like that's a tremendous amount of discipline. Now that's not to discount, that there are sexual behaviors that we would prefer not to have and that we ought not to have. Um, it's best we can, but I'm also just appreciative that we are as disciplined as we are in the midst of being such sexy, creative creatures.

Well, at the I love this topic, any topic that I'm like, who there's 1/3 rail for most people, you have to dance around like I love talking about those things will for just the pure just conversation that we're having that is that I feel like is touching on something that just needs oxygen. But also, um, this is just so interesting to me, Ivan like to do? I remember I literally years ago. Remember reading that in the book? Uh, and I was like, um I think I remember the line in the book is like, you know, if you're feeling something sexually, you can say I'm feeling sexual energy,

and I was just a CEO is like, No, no, no, no, no, you can't say that, right? And then really appreciating that you all felt No. We're gonna put something in here that you have never heard before. But we

believe it. Yeah, everybody told us. Do not put that in the book. Really? Oh, yeah. We had all kinds of people say, Take it out on. We just decided that we're going to stand for we need to let it be OK to be sexual beings. It's it's actually delicious. It's wonderful. It feels so good. Can it be okay And can we learn howto have all this juice running through us and do that in a way that's easy and friendly, because otherwise, you know We got sick and tired of going and working like stodgy banks where everybody was looking very neutral and no one was allowed to be sexy. And then we were coming in there because the leaders were getting fired for sleeping around with everybody on their staff because that energy would go sneak out on the sidelines.

And so it was like, Well, that's not gonna work. So can we Queen, bring it back and let that be part of what happens here.

Well, it is. I want I do want to just play devil's advocate of Could that Lee could Are we in this state off of it not happening more because we have contained

it? Yeah, that's my art might. Well, my argument is containing it makes it have to go dark. And then if you have to go dark, then it's gonna come out in these unconscious ways. So what's it like to be able to at least say to yourself, Maybe don't want to say it to colleagues, but at least say to yourself, Wow, I noticed, when I think about going in doing a B C, I have a lot of sexual energy or wow, I noticed when I walked by, so and so I had a nice sexual polarity that just got lit up in my body, and I body lit up.

And what can I do? I just run that energy and not make that about that person or think I have to do something with them. But just enjoy that and use it as fuel because, you know, the high side of sexual energy is its incredibly enlivening. You know, forget a cup of coffee, just run some sexual energy. It's free and cheap and doesn't have a big side effect. And so, uh, you know, if people learn how to do that more, they not be so overwhelmed and exhausted, in my opinion, because it's an it's an unlimited source of

energy. And have you had ah backlash towards this?

Absolutely, Of course. Yeah, there's some people who say, You know, I'm sure there's some people say we wouldn't even hire you as an organization to come in here because we're not gonna talk about sexual feelings, or we do have people who say companies will say, Um, you can come in but do not talk about sexual feelings And so you know, we'd like to be of service. That will say great. We'll call it creative feelings or, you know, he really wants to. We'll just drop it off for the moment. But, um,

most of the people who hire us say, You know, that's interesting. And what would it be like for me to just think about myself as you know, learning to run an open up more to experiencing sexual energy and all of the feel good that that provides

now? Well, it's, I mean, think about San Francisco as a city, as being perhaps the most sexually progressive city. Um, in the United States, it is. There's not a whole lot of sexual energy, actually, um, there is, I think, the biological, the kind of layers to it. But to what you're saying,

I'm from, um, from Texas and and and a place like Dallas where I grew up. There's a lot sexual energy, and it is one of the most sexually conservative cities, and and, ah, you know, the Bible Belt. It's right there, right smack dab in the Bible belt, and and yet the energy is there, and probably it's coming out in dark places or its its shadow version. Where do you get the language? Shadow version?

Shadow. Well, that's a psychological concept. The idea that you know any anything that's a gift Task the shadow. And you just want to always be mindful of the shadow it can cast so that your you don't get caught in that unconsciously. And you know, shadow can cause a little drama or a lot, depending on how caught you are in it. So that's always something we work with our leaders

on. And I guess you could map that to the collective work within. A company's is integrating that shadow that an individual needs to as well, or else that repression suppression

leads to yes, so we always look at that. We look at each individual leader, you know, what are your superpowers and gifts? And then what are the shadows at those cast? And we look at that as a culture as well. Your culture has superpowers and these things that are really valuable. And then there are shadows to be aware of us well and so that way, if you're aware of them, you can avoid getting caught in them, and they take you off course.

I have so many shows. Welcome to Planet Earth is, uh, so many of them. And and then there's 1/5 1

The fifth feeling joy. We talked about the acid. Does joy so sad, Scared, angry, joyful and sexual r r five core feelings. And we would say those combined make up a whole bunch of other feelings. Kind of like primary colors, you know, combined make a bunch of other colors. And so we want people to get really good at knowing how to feel those feelings, locate them a sensations in the body, be with those sensations all the way through to completion, and then listen to the wisdom of those emotions.

Is there a philosophical or spiritual base to the work that you do or, you know, just any Graham you're saying, has you, eh? Maybe a spiritual underpinning, but within your five.

Oh, the $500 we got him from gain Katie Hendricks. I don't know where they got him from, but they made sense to us, so we kept them. Um, yeah, I don't have a sense about the

background. Well, the, um it's Those five are really interesting in that or the concept that everything you feel could be a mix of those. I definitely notice in myself when I'm feeling, um, fearful or not enough, I'll see something and social media that makes me feel not enough. I feel it's a tightness right in, not the pit of my stomach. It's like Ah ah, right above my stomach. Okay? And it is so visceral. It's so physical.

It's a pit there. And so we would say That's probably more of a cut. We call it a cognitive. A motive mood, meaning you believe a thought. I'm not enough that is that the thought. Something like that happens. You compare yourself to somebody else. It might

actually be more tied to this future that I've created is now in jeopardy.

Okay, so that feels like there's a threat to the my future. And so I believe that thought there's a threat. And then I scare myself with this pit in the stomach, and then that pit kind of reverberant reverberates comes back up. There's a threat, and then I go back to my feet. Anxiety. I would call it, and then it's a cognitive, a motive loop, and it can last a really long time because it's not a it's so tied to believing you're right, that there is a threat. So we say it's not very helpful to go try to feel that feeling. What's more helpful is to unwind the thought and once the fought relaxes the feeling that mood tends to go away. And, uh and so we help people a lot with questioning the beliefs that they're holding that causes that reactivity.

Okay, so, uh, could we work on one specifically, um, So the one that I felt the yesterday was on Twitter, someone saying that they wanted to start a podcast that I felt like, Oh, they're more qualified than I am to start a podcast there. Uh, so you believe they're not? They're more qualified than I am. Yes. Hey, I also believe that thought that hey, this might might be onto something interesting here. And that's that's the enemy because of my imaginative creative forces like,

Oh, and it could become this. And then this could happen. It could become this. And then there was this incredible or what I thought was a credible threat to Oh, well, this person is more qualified Yeah,

the moment I believe this person is more qualified. I'm going to go into a state of threat in my mind Wants to be right that they're more qualified. So that's gonna immediately cause reactivity. And it's gonna immediately typically put me it, put you in some kind of, ah feel threat or scared on DSO. What we want to do is we want to go after the mind and we want to help loosen the grip of the mind. Um, they are more qualified. Your mind wants be right about that. So we want to turn that around and look and see how they're not more qualified is at least as true. We're not trying to say it's more true. We're just trying to say it's at least is true. So when you say they're more qualified, what's some evidence that you look at that? Has you believe you're right about that?

Um, more Twitter followers? Okay, more kind of Ah, that's like that Direct ones ago. Shit have five times more s, so they're more because they have more Twitter followers, right? Bigger audiences, your audience and, um, coupled with this belief that this is ah, this is a unique, um, angle or perspective of of within the startup community and wanting, or at least the first digestion. And I was like,

Oh, this is really useful. This really cool. And then the second is Oh, I could build on this for the psychology of creation, this entire kind of subtext of the of the podcast. And then someone will come in and and ADM or add competitive pressure to that space in that future that I've started to edge out, I'll I will go to the end of story and say, 15 minutes later I just tweeted and said, Hey, do you want help setting? And you tell you all the equipment to get? And I cannot tell you how power, how powerful that wasn't unwinding. The threat was just being like, Oh,

I could actually help this person, huh? And I think by Universal, like we're saying, my universal compass is towards connections like Oh, I can connect with this person on this good. But for 15 minutes, I like you were like, Yeah, I went. I went like, turn on the shower is gonna jump in the shower is like, Why does this just kind of more of like this is so interesting that I'm that I care so much because hours ago would have said that absolutely. This this is that is that would be the best thing ever to inspire more guests in this

and everyone being and you start to perceive threatened. So the question would be there, not more qualified, would be at least is true. And so in the moment, the moment you think, oh, they're more qualified, that's a threat. Turn it around there. Not more qualified. I'm more qualified. And look and see how that's at least is true because we want to get the mind back to neutral. Can you mind? Come back to neutral? So it's like they're more qualified. Sure.

Okay, I'm more qualified. Sure. So now what? And you know now what do I want underneath that? I want to continue to do what I love doing here and make sure I have plenty of followers and I'd like to have more people in the space to And what could that look like? And now I'm gonna get curious versus being right that they're more qualified than another one would be, Um, we shouldn't. There's kind of a thought like there shouldn't be others in the space. Is that kind of underlying thought as well Turn it around. There should be others in the space. How is that? At least as true. So that you can see that. Oh,

you know, um, I can argue that if people are following that podcast, they might come look for another one like it and find mine. I might get actually, more followers. This'll could actually be of service as much as it could be a threat. So you're just constantly looking at bringing the mind to neutral and then going, okay? Is there a preference? A preferred state? I do have. And how do I create that right from a place of curiosity versus the moment you get threatened, you're just not gonna be able to think it's creatively typically,

right? Well, yeah, it is. So it was like, I think this self serving nature of 15 minutes later being like, let me just write him and say I can help you. The resentment came across. It is because someone mentioned, you know, it's an interesting or check out James's podcast. Uh, it's actually really interesting and fresh within this space and that contrast of, Oh, this person thinks it's interesting this person could compete with that. It was really it actually elevated the fear because it's like a hope that I think there's something valuable here. Someone else's validating that value,

and then someone else could take it away. Take away that that value. And so I went through that kind of mental journey of like, Okay, that's interesting. Why am I feeling this? What is what is this feeling, man? It's so interesting that I'm feeling it physically. That has its own kind of interest to it. I wonder how long it'll go away. And then I was gonna get in. The shower is like, No, I can't get I actually should go and write them that will help them with podcasts, one for the self serving nature of I could actually use.

This is a point of connection with this person that I respect a lot. And to self serving nature was the more people that podcast, the more podcasts I could cross promote on this subject. And was, it was I think it was completely capitalistic. Uh, but But that was um, there was a flipping there. That was hopeful, but that was a strong

feeling. Yeah, and then underneath that you might just go. I just noticed I'm scared. If I'm not right about anything, I just hear the news. There might be a new one new person in the space, and I noticed I feel scared. And the intelligence of your fear says, Hey, there's something that you don't know something you're gonna need to learn When there's an addition in the space I wonder what you need to learn here. And so you just go. Yeah, great. What do I want to learn here? And you just stay open and curious that okay, I'll need to know something different when it's just me and the space versus others in the space.

And that's important. That's intelligent. So your fear becomes an like a best friend. That just goes to pay attention. There's something you want to learn here. And so if you could be with that fear, which means, you know, you were describing It's like this pit kind of in the solar plexus area, and he breathed with it, be with it, let it have its full

experience. Meditate. I can tell because you were You use the word solar plexus on Lee applies to meditate. I never heard it anywhere else. And yet it's mentioned in every, uh, meditation at its great 10. Okay, so, um yeah, I did feel

it. There they be with it and let let it be Let it have its full expression. So emotions show up as sensations in the body. And most of us don't take the time to let the completion of that sensation occur. We tend to want to stop it or and sometimes you might want to stop it by you know what? Don't be scared. Go help the guy. And that actually may be what we call a hero move to get away from your fear. Like, let me just go to feel like I'm in control by helping him. And then I don't have to be with my scared, so you know, if that happened for you, But sometimes he will take these actions to get away from the discomfort instead of hate, stay with fear. Hoof. There's the pit,

you know? And I usually say, like, describe it, you know? And what's it like and breathe in and through and around that sensation and just welcome it being here as much as it wants to. And then it'll take its time and go through a completion. And then you'll feel a and a devolution of that a dissolving off those sensations. And then then the curiosity of what do I get to learn from the fear can can arise for you to learn

from. Well, the do you mind articulating the 1st 2 commitments again and your your perfect articulation of them share.

Actually, Uh, yeah, I'll do my best to remember it. Okay, so commitment number one I commit to take 100% responsibility for the circumstances of my life, my mental, physical, emotional and spiritual well being. And I, um, I commit and where it versus below the line, it's I commit to blaming and others and myself for the circumstances of my life. So that's commitment. Number one commitment number two above the line is I commit to curiosity to letting go of being right and making learning more important than being defensive. So something like that, I don't have my words memorized, but that's the

that's the core concepts the Yeah that I feel like there's there is, ah, signage. It seems like significant overlap with spirituality or religion. In the first in, um, I blisters my No, I'm a big fan of Eastern Florence, Italy. Philosophy EDS and but heavily influenced by Christianity and a huge, huge fan of just the ideal of this. This capital M mythical character of Jesus is pretty powerful concept, and it's why it's lodged in our our conscious and unconsciousness in the West. But, um but it seems like that idea of 100% responsibility Yeah, like that. It feels like a Christian concept because yeah,

in paganism, it's just our gods versus the other tribes gods and and they're gonna decide who wins And Christianity is is heaven or hell. It's your choice in its years alone. Yes, And you end up there and you deserve whatever you get. Yeah, that's which has a heavy subtext of you were 100% responsible. Yeah, for where you end

up. I also love it at the end. Jesus is like, Okay, guys, don't blame these guys for killing me. They're innocent. And what he means by that is they believe thoughts that I'm a bad guy. Their minds want to be right. And as long as they want to be right, they can't do anything but kill me. So don't make them wrong for getting caught in their righteous beliefs. They're doing the best they know how. If you thought the way they thought you would do this to me too So so don't blame take, you know, take responsibility and don't make them wrong for being right. Right? And I love that that I love that concept of we're all innocent. If we could let go of being right, we would do differently.

Yeah, I mofo was the dude. Yeah, that's pretty cool. It's pretty cool that they you know, it's so funny because in Sanford says, Kelly's at least Christianity is so, um, anathema to any type of intellectual conversation and or ah topic. And yet, even from the most spiritual hippy esque free lovin um, you know San Franciscans and and yet, I mean Jesus would put the biggest hippie in ah, in San Francisco's history to shame in terms of just coming down love and everybody, um, and a pretty powerful

yeah, talk of 15 commitments. I mean that I would say he was. He was definitely a great

role model. Well, in the 2nd 1 that you mentioned, I think it's also it's it's interesting that if there's, um, you know, the commitment that, um, the commitment of being okay with not being right is. And what was your articulation again?

I want I commit to radical curiosity to letting go of being right, right of defending and instead opening up to curiosity and making learning more important than defending my opinion.

Well, the the thoughts that come to mind with that is it parallel to two spirituality moment, I think in many different versions is Is this this thought that you are willing, the Christian sense it's that you're broken to begin with? Um, and that might be a little bit more of 20th century kind of Bible belt version. Yeah, but still, that concept is is a powerful one for millions and millions of people, and probably an all religions are just in many ways, psycho therapies developed over thousands of years.

Yeah, I would argue. I would argue anything is a religion that any set of beliefs becomes a religion. I would say the 15 commitments can become a religion. It's just a set of beliefs that people decide they want a practice. And, um, positive psychology could be a religion. And, you know, all these different. Any Graham could be a

religion, right? But it is. I loved the, uh, second commitment of letting go of being right because holy hell do you end up in really bad places in life when you are so committed to being right. Yeah, it's really painful. And you cannot let go off this version in your head that is tied to the carbon drama triangle of I am the victim here. And I am I am right that I am the victim or I am right. I am the hero here. Yeah, like I think if I were to sum up my failures in in my professional career or personal career, personal relationships would be to not being a good enough listener and probably could all boil down to that not being a good enough listener. And talk about what got you here won't get you there. I think what makes great founders in the early stages is they don't listen to anyone saying that can't happen. Yeah,

for you can't do that. That's the swan song for a founder is you can't do that. And yet, man, does that flip on its head where you get two years and three years and and that big mouth and shut years are the reason that you end up in some really, really tough spots.

I've just heard some statistics lately that 65% of co founders break up or only it's 65% of companies with co founders fail because of the failure of the relationship of the co founders and my experiences working co founders and having been in a lot of those relationships. And, you know, helping support keeping those together is because I'm right. You're wrong and I blame you for the problems. And and so there's this nan and yeah, that gets happening. And all of a sudden, these people who either we're friends or colleagues and had great ideas all of a sudden are against each other and the whole thing. This whole brilliant idea falls apart because those relationships got damaged by people wanting to be right. So we put a lot of attention on. Can you let go of being right so you could make learning more important and keep this relationship healthy,

right? Yeah. Well, luckily dodged that bullet. I had the best co founder in the world, and ah, and we're brothers to this day. But ah, God bless him for putting up with I'm sure so many times where I just wasn't, uh, a good enough listener. Um, okay, well, I want to ask two more questions before we before. That's the questions I ask every guest. And that's, um tell me three stories in your life that have helped shape who you've become as as

Diana Chapman. One moment that changed my life was 20 some years ago. My brother in law was a CEO of Monsanto. Bob Shapiro and, ah, you know, he got a lot of criticism, But one of the things that I really respected about Bob was that I felt at the time he was one of the real forefront leaders and being a conscious leader in Crete in conscious culture as faras, the how he treated people and how little drama were on his team's. He's pretty infamous for that, and Bob said, I'm gonna give you a gift. Here's $5000. You can do whatever you want with this money. But what I would if I were you, I would go to Santa Barbara, California,

and go study with Gay and Katie Hendricks, who, in my opinion, are the best coaches I have ever worked with. And he had sought out coaches for most, you know, most of his career. It was a positive meditator. He was really into all that stuff back, Bob. Yeah, and, ah, silly. Sending Monsanto. Yeah,

yeah, right. It's fascinating. So he said, um, I've worked best coaches thes the ones that I would work with if I were you guys. You and your husband go out, take that $5000 go study with them. So we did. And it's five days with them. Change my life and ah, it was like somebody turned the lights on. And I remember being both just overwhelmingly excited about learning all these

new things. And have you already started in this school? You

know? I mean, I I had been a seeker all my life, so I'd always been interested

in those things. Where

did you grow up? I grew up in Fort Wayne, Indiana. And, uh, and, ah, the time I was living in Arbor, Michigan, when he gave us this gift. So we go out to Santa Barbara, you take this. It's amazing. And I'm both thrilled and angry like, why am I, you know, 30 years old,

30 some years old here, learning this stuff for the first time. It feels tragic to me. So I remember right then and there, saying I would devote my life to figure out how to get this out to the minute it as many people as I can. So that was the beginning of this career. I know. Bob had no idea. This is that, You know, all of this would come from this gift. But it was the greatest gift anybody ever gave me was the gift of conscious relationship. Basically, um, that I then turned into conscious leadership and brought to the business world. So that was one to ah,

this past year, we got sued The conscious leadership group. We got sued by a leadership group down in L. A who owns the trademark rights to the terms above the line and below the line. They don't use this in their brand. And they're not. They're actually probably, I would say, in violation of the trademark. But they have a lot of money, money and some powerful lawyers. And so our lawyer said you'd win, but it cost you 1,000,000 most a $1,000,000 to try to fight these guys. So we gave it up and, um, no grieved a lot and decided Thio,

the terms have been so valuable, so we don't We can't market with them, but we can use them for educational purposes. But I really looked at, um what's the mirror for me? You know, I was so angry cause I was, like, peace terms air so helpful. And we're in a time when it would be really helpful to have more conscious leaders. Why wouldn't they want to share this? And they're not even using it out. So I thought that's so controlling. So I went well, Diana, where are you controlling?

And we've had a lot of people ask about, you know. Can we use your videos here? Can we have this here? No, no. You know, we've been trying to control some of it, and so we made a decision. Um, toe open source everything that we create. And, um, that was shocking leagues, um, liberating To free up potential money on the table and to let you know everybody can take this stuff.

You can compete with us with our own materials. You can just have it. And, um, that the abundance I feel in having that kind of I would call more like a gift economy mindset around that, um, I'm still charging for my own service is But but just to be able to say, take this and have enough trust that, um, you know, there's enough people out there who want to learn this, and I can still create living with, you know, lots of competitors using my stuff. And

what was that grieving like? And obviously there's going through. My head is there's a chance they make make me change the podcast name if they have the trademark on it. But it's, ah,

there's I just had all these visions of what we could do with the terms because, um, yeah, they just work. We've tried so many other things we tried, you know, in the box out of the box, you know, all kinds of other things, but nothing would stick like that because mine's were or to the left to the right. And people like what's left, what's right above and below. Just kind of everybody was able to stick with that. And what meant what was what? And so it's just been language that shared language that teams can use that has made such a difference in their ability to collaborate so, so aggrieved. You know,

it was just darn, I really hoped we could use it more specific ways, and it just requires us to get creative. And, um but

we'll remember not to create too much of a vision for this, uh, this podcast and name, given that it might have to change. Yeah, well, with that with that story,

I think I think as long as you're not offering the same creative Syria in the same industry, I think you're okay. But But anyway, that was going on. If it happens. Yeah, and, ah, you know, I learned a lot through the lawsuit, and, um uh, yes. Oh, I really love looking at how everything is my mirror. And so if I don't like something out there, I go take a look at how is it in here and own it and love it.

And so that was a big gift than those that those are two things that come to mind. Um uh, I think another one, This one My favorite childhood stories is when I was a kid, I was in high school and the school board said, You can't smoke cigarettes if you are in extracurricular activities. And I thought, Well, if there's a valid reason for that, you know, like it affects my performance as an athlete or as a wind player. You know, instrument player, that makes sense. But if you're gonna put a moral judgment on people, that just felt unjust to me.

So I, as part of the student government, wanted to fight that nobody else wanted to. So I, on my own at the age of 16 took on the school board and it was in the papers. And, you know, I and I won and, um, and you know, it's not like I'm a big proponent of kids smoking, but it was just this sense of, um, you know, it's not okay to put your judgments and control plans on other people. because you want to be right. And so I guess that started very young for me.

Things get very messy after their only a little bit messy. And if you don't say something when it's a little bit messy,

Yeah, so I appreciate my courageous self, but that that started some advocacy in myself. That has happened then. That's repeated many times in my life of different ways, where I stood up for what I felt was an unjust thing. And

that's really cool. Mainly from the perspective I imagined you it did not engender any compassion towards the just the no kid should be able to smoke. I had no no army of this is a no brainer way. All should fight this. It was actually No, it was a pretty kind of moral. And, uh and, uh, pretty a pretty deep ah,

position to take. Yeah, it was. And it was It was wild that I did that all on my own. And when I looked back and like, wow, where came over me that I was willing to do all that, and especially because there wasn't anybody really backing that like, oh, we all

agree. So, um we're their influences in your life of people like that around you and your family or

No, no, it's just I don't know. It was just something in me that just said that's just not It doesn't work for people of power to tell people who don't have power what they can and cannot D'oh. Unless there's, you know, really feels like some some valid reason that the way can point to. And so, uh, yeah, I just that was that was what I stood for. And I've always, you know, was the girl that said, Hey, how come the boys get the big tire on the playground? The girls get the little one like That's not okay.

And when Richard in the principal's office and said, We have to trade and you okay, we're gonna trade from now on. And you know, I was always, I think, always an advocate for justice and equality.

I don't know from that brave, um, even in something as, ah, one that is really brave just on it on the face of it. But yeah, it is something toe where I, um I think maybe it's tied to the three and achievement mentality toe wear. The decision to take on a task for me could be so just powered by word of

the chance of winning, uh, rather than right or wrong. Yeah. Whereas my type is Hey, I focus on where people might control other people and the injustice of that, and so I'm more willing to courageously stand against that is part of my system. Yeah. Fascinating. Yeah.

Okay. And the other question that I asked I'd love to ask us, uh, what's something you think a lot about? Like an aunt or an amount of of your time thinking about that you rarely get a chance to talk about, you know, publicly, socially or professionally.

Yeah. Um, well, I I think it probably would be the heartbreak I have around watching so many people be disconnected from nature and disconnected from, You know, I think ultimately most of man's suffering is coming now from its disconnect from nature. And it's wanting to managing control nature. Ah, and objectify nature. And, um, even things like watching everybody walk around with a single use plastic water bottles with, like, not even a care in the world about what's how is this affect everything else around me. Um, I I just think a lot about that. And I to me,

a lot of people look like walking zombies just so unaware of how their behaviors are affecting, um, animals and plants. And so getting leaders back out into nature. Um, having them start to have a deep appreciation for it toe want to care for it? 20 care force species care for the, um, you know, the quality of the air, the the water that that's really something that matters a lot to me. And, you know, if I had it my way, I'd be like, If you want to hire my team to come in, I want I would be You know, I'd love to be pickier about really getting aggressive on. I want your behaviors to change around how you're taking care of our lack of taking care of the environment.

Yeah, that there's two thoughts going through my one. I think that is so true and that just this disconnect from nature and the unknown repercussions off that, um and the two thoughts that are going through my head one is is the I remember hearing that, um, reading that There was a study that showed Ah, in a prison, even a poster of trees had a calming effect on inmates. Yeah, and And that just nature has this. I mean, there's this new thing going on right now, and, ah, California called its forest bathing right?

It's a Japanese term. Is it? Like they I can't over their word for it, but it means tree

bathing tree, baby. Yeah, that's it. Yeah, I just heard about It's like this new thing that people are doing and there wasn't leading these tree bait. It's just hiking. Yeah, I was just thinking, but the emphasis and that it's very deliberate. You chosen words of of, you know, it's not just hiking, it's actually just cleansing.

Yeah, and it's like taking in the high oxygen content of a heavily wooded area in a row and just yeah, in the end, liveliness that comes with being in all of that. Yeah, and the beauty of it all. And yeah, it's it's I hike a lot. It's one of my favorite things to do and, uh, on, So I'm bringing more teams. I live outside of Santa Cruz and I live in the woods and I bring teams there and people are like, I feel so good here. We

need to come here more often. And I was just saying to someone on Sunday night that one of the most underappreciated geography Sze of Northern California's the Santa Cruz Mountains no one ever talks about their

amazing Yeah, they're beautiful. I live right in the heart of them and have these gorgeous views of them. And, um, and birds and animals. And, you know, there's other everywhere in, uh, in sex and yeah, I just I love being a part of all of that and caring for it and stewarding it and thats it's important to me and I would I would like it to be more important. So you know it

well, in the the other thought going through my head is in the downside of conventional Christianity is viewing the world is this temporary place. Um, and I think that leading to a ah, this Western idea that it's like this is a bus stop and people don't treat bus stops to well rather than That's the last 150 years of the scientific, um, illumination of ecology that we absolutely are not apart from nature. We absolutely depend

on it. Yeah, well, I'm open to it being a bus stop, and I'm also open it open to it being a very sacred, rare place. And could they both be true and, uh, knowing that they're both true and I don't know, it doesn't really matter. A temple. Yes. What matters to me is just that it's beautiful to me, and I really like caring for it. And I like the idea of others being able to enjoy it in its in Its Majesty. And so, you know,

I think probably if you really knew me, you would know I'm an environmentalist at heart and probably one of the reasons why I've brought I've put my attention on business leaders. Ah, when it comes to conscious leadership are conscious. Relationship is that it seems to me that they're likely the ones who have a lot of influence over policies and have a lot of wealth to influence things. And so now that's that's a care. I care a lot about those who have influence being really thoughtful about caring for nature.

And it makes me want to follow eight. Okay, sir, fighting the cause, whether whether they think they can win it or not. And therefore it's it's a little more, um, it sounds a little more pure. Uh

oh, I don't know about that. I just think you know what's true about me is I'm pretty tender hearted, And, um, I get broken hearted about watching things that are beautiful in my mind, go away or suffer significantly because of lack of awareness on man's part. So,

um, what what would make a in 2019 within the startup ecosystem is there? Is there a pattern for what? And feel free to hurt my feelings? If you if if it's not threes, that doesn't bother me at all, Is there a. I know that we want Thio kind of view it that everything is is is ah the same, but or their leaders that is there a category or number in the India Graham that makes for a better leader in a time

like now? No, I don't think so. I think any and all of them are equally valuable. And I think it's just about Are they Are they practicing being present and aware? Um, any of them are beautiful leaders. So no one particular one of my mind more effective than another in that way, Um,

I can see the virtues of of eights and talking to you and and, uh, seeing the downsides of a three just picking battles that can be can be one.

Yeah, it's like, Hey, hey, threes. I want you to create cool stuff and achieve, but will you make sure that everybody wins when you win? And if only your winning or only your team is winning, then we all didn't win. And everybody includes all of the creatures. And so that's that's what most matters is that, um, in my mind, nobody wins unless everybody wins, right? Yeah.

Totally. No, it's not a happy ending if your narrative is you. Ah, do well in business. You everybody gets ski houses, and then the world ah, is over and 2054. Yeah, that makes night. That a great story. Um, well, Diana, thank you so much for for coming by this as, uh, God, I love this conversation. And I hope to do apart too. With us sometimes.

So in love. It's so fun to be here with you and and thank you for this work. And thank you for all of you for listening and putting your attention on this. Um, I think it matters so much that you're paying attention not only to that you know, the technical side of how you lied, but that you're also paying attention to the psychology and and the well being of yourself. End of those you lead. And I'm grateful for all of the work that you're doing. So thank you so much for that.

Of course. And for Ah, for listeners, it's 15 commitments of conscious leadership. Um, is the best selling book that that I love and give Thio, uh, and recommend to every single founder. Um, is there anything anything else that people can Ah, that should How should they find you online?

You can find us at conscious dot is, which is God. I s so conscious. Is And, um

is there another book in

the works? Not well, yeah. Um, Jim, my co founder, he's working on the 15 commitments of conscious living. Um, yeah, so just more of like, how would this apply at home and in other areas of your life? So I can't wait to read it. Yeah, we're excited about it. Awesome.

Well, thank you so much. Damn Be well, all right. A friend's and listeners. I hope you enjoyed today's episode. If you want to hear more of these types of conversations, go over to your favorite podcast. Nap and hit, Subscribe or leave us a review. Better band Love hearing from people that that appreciate this type of conversation and want more of it. You can also follow us on Twitter at Go below the line. We'll see in our Twitter bio our email address for you to shoot us a note on any suggestions of guests or topics that we should cover. We read every single one, so thank you for those that have already sent those in. That's it for us today. We will see you next time on below the line. All right. Below the line is brought to you by straight up podcasts.