the street artist. Finch is perhaps the most recognizable street artist in San Francisco, with his mega size honey bears, pop art lips, poppy flowers and poodles gracing our city in the unlikeliest of places. He wasn't always pursuing a passionate are much less a attempted a career in it, and he rarely speaks publicly about what it's like to be him, although he is known for being the only anonymous Ted speaker to date. And this episode goes deep into the below the line version of someone that has very little above the line outside of his public work that, well, by design is through the medium of street art so that everyone can enjoy the aesthetic upgrade in and around the city, which is the above the line version that people no offense, it's well, it's not much. But even though that's the intention to stay out of sight to make the Ortho focused all right, that is often against the law. And we talk about that very acute fact and the acute fact that not everyone enjoys it.

It's a really fascinating conversation, which, at about how he's taken the wrists and intentional, exceptionally hardworking steps as well as writing lucky waves to become one of the rare artists to make a living from his art. Within just a few years of picking up a spray paint can. You can find out more of the above the line version online at finch dot com. That's F in in ch dot com, and you can hear the other side right now. This is below the line. Finch James. Cheers. Cheers. We're drinking today's ah, we're drink that we're sharing adventurously. Sharing together is highball energy, sparkling energy,

water and his grapefruit flavor. It's a to describe this for listeners. It is a huge it's a tallboy can. And, um, it's white with some cool brain ing, little speckled dots. And yeah, it's called highball energy. Have you ever had this before? I'm not. What is your when you're creating art? What's your go to do? You have a go to drink?

I yeah, we're gonna start weird here, and I drink, um, mildly salted water. What? So I put a little salt in my water, makes it to pee less, and I think it tastes good. Um, so I just have, like, a water bottle, like a thermos and I just filled it up before I go into the studio. I don't trust Mr The Water that comes out of the pipes in my studio, so I just bring it from home from the filter. Really? And then, um yeah. Is that a little salt into the, um,

into the bottle before I Yeah. Take it. What? When did you start doing that? How do you even

know to do that? I started it. Um, what's the book? The guy who started on it road. Aubrey. Marcus, have you, Marcus? Thank you. And it's called, like, one great day or something. Seize the day. Kill the day. I don't know anyway, So he talks about,

um, right in the morning. He has his quote, quote, morning elixir, which I do. So it's basically like I use mason jars for water. So it's a full mason jar water, plus some salt, plus some lemon juice. And it's just that you're dehydrated your most 100 in the morning. And so he has this whole rant about how we jump in the shower and we cover ourselves in water, but don't actually drink any of it. And so it's just to start the day off, right? You start out the water,

and so that's why start insulting the water for that. And I was, like, actually looks pretty good, and so I don't put quite a much salt in. It is he recommends in the morning for my kind of everyday

water. Much does he recommend how much

I think he gets, like, 30 grams or something. You have to read the book? I don't know exactly. Um, I put about half of that, probably I know it by the number of twists of my salt shaker. So I do like 15 twists instead of 30 twists. Um, I measured at once to calibrate my salt grinding action and then just assume that is about

the same every time. And, um, it's just to limit how it doesn't help with the uptake of the of the actual

hydration. Ida, Ida, I heard about this thing is twice once from him. And then once, I think sometime in the 10 Fair Show where he talked about, Is he having a pee a lot. And so, um, pounds, it's gonna taste good. I like huge philosophy around. I'm not like some you know Salt water of Angeles. Tell it I mean, I'm super in truck. I think it takes a little better than normal water. And I just don't like to take his money.

Pee breaks. So I think I've heard that makes you a little heavier because you just retain the water. But it just water. So it's not like I'm I'm not that worried. I don't like watch my weight in that way. We're like, Oh, my gosh, I have a pound extra pound of water weight on me freak freaking

out. What are some of the other, um, and some of the hottest kind of routines that you'll do during

the day. So I also do the butter coffee thing. So I d'oh 15 grams of butter and then a scoop of protein powder and then actually use instant coffee now, which I'll admit to the world, Um, with the whole phase of, you know, reading PhD dissertations on total dissolved solids and optimal extraction curves for coffee. And then eventually I realized that I don't care that much. That's gonna get up like get my first meal in. So it was a wake up. I don't eat. Maybe for a couple hours. I just drink the the morning elixir and then kind of get some work done that's gonna get up and get to work right away. And then when I asked you take a break. Tohave like the first meal,

basically, is the butter coffee? What time do you wake up?

7 30 Ideally, um, if I'm not really late in the studio, I'll just sleep later because I just got the working at night, but I usually try to fall asleep. I got a better on 10 and then you get a good eight and 1/2 hours and then get up. If I were gonna bet earlier, eyes, whatever I said the wrong kind of a dish hours

after I after, I could've been We've been friends for a few years, and I know that you you have probably consumed as much of the information as as anyone I know on this on this type of stuff, especially with your creative endeavors. So this is really actually wanna keep asking about this? So you wake up at 7 30 and then how much work will you? D'oh.

Yes. So today I only do something productive done first. And so there's, um my work is varies a lot, depending on sort of what phase I'm in. So right now I'm doing studio work, but it's a very waterfall process. So right now I'm just trying to get the next batch of paintings prepped today to figure out one wall water waterfall means, Oh, it's like you start at. It's a very clear progression of our project. So I now have like a spreadsheet where it's like, OK, I've got 12 commissions coming in, and I'm not gonna start those until May 1st and then made. First, I get the design process going for everybody.

And so this involves either They know exactly what they want already so cool. It's added one where it's a classic honey bear on a seven foot tall, four foot white canvas. And so there. There's no real new design work to do, except for figuring out how the stencils for together for that canvas. But there's some where you know, somebody, um, wanted a pair with a burrito, and so I have to go in, sketch out that burrito and sort of get, you know, or maybe they don't know exactly they want. They're like, OK,

I've chatted with them. We have three ideas of where this could go So I will do sketches producing those three or up to three depending and then show this to them and then they'll select one and then I'll make the central design. And then we can sort of It's great that maybe 123 times for on Lee size color emplacement. And so have the spreadsheet where it's like image design. One design review, One image designed to kill you. Yeah, like design approved. Then it's stencil design, like really figuring out how it's gonna look finalized and then trapping, which is basically making sure the shapes overlap properly so you don't get gaps when you paint. And then, like stencil cut designed, figuring out how it tiles across sheets of cardboard for the peace and then buy supplies. Cut stencils. Prepared a paint paint ship to deliver whatever, right, so it sort of like everything kind of goes down. That progression and there's a line

is not as the left brain exactly creating art I've ever heard, but but it's Ah, I imagine it's phenomenally, um, simplifying for you. Just keep track of everything.

Yeah, When I started doing the central designs, I didn't really know how I did it. I just kind of did it. I sort of got into everything started in Adobe Illustrator and I basically work from photographs. And I have a Walkom Santic, which is a pen display. So I draw on the screen. And so I had just been doing work like this for a long time, and it kind of just did it. But then, as I did it more, I was like, Oh, I see. Like, the first thing I do is go source a lot of photos.

And the next thing I do is kind of do preliminary traces of those photos to see you know what? Which one might be the best and then I select want. And then I d'oh. And so it's become this. Really? Um, what I find funny is like, the more that you zoom in on anything, it's like you keep looking for art somewhere. But as you zoom in, you basically find science down there. And so when is the amount? It looks like art. But when I look in on like a monkey,

could do any of these deaths, right? Right. Well s Oh, and do you mean just when you zoom in, you see an Excel spreadsheet? You see no process just like, yeah, stenciled like version of something.

But I have just, like a repeatable process for producing the central designs. And and I ask myself the question of all the times for anything in my art if you were to substitute somebody else for me, here, with the product, be the same. And the answer is, um, yes and only a couple of areas. And so the best I have for like, where the quote unquote art actually exists is, as I'm actually like, looking at the photo and like drawing it and doing the little squiggly lines like the choice of where to put those squiggles is sort of an intuitive process, and that's where the art is. But I don't I think that another skilled illustrator could copy my style and produced quote unquote finch work in the same way that I can certainly do anything Banksy pre 2010. Like I could trivially reproduce because I know exactly he's just taking an image. Putting in a photo shop,

taking the level slider, sliding it down to the right level and then just whatever spring that on two. Like printing it on paper, cutting that with exactly knife spring that on to another sheet cutting around the edges will fill the 2nd 1 white for the 1st 1 black. That's his whole process. And then he started figuring out shading. And then now he does crazy brushwork and stuff. But the early stuff. It's just like I know how he's making it, and it's not useful for me to copy it, because that's a Banksy piece. I'm just doing a derivative work of hiss, but the sort of like technical artistry of it is something that someone else could do. And the same for me, like some someone else could dio, if you have sufficient illustration skills like a Finch piece,

and it doesn't help your career to do that because I was like, Oh, yeah, he was copying his style. But it's funny words like, Well, you know what's like is the magic. Just that I came up with this way of doing it like, Is that the artist allowance or weird?

What is your answer for the onion. I want to get into your influences. Um and I'd say you're probably the best known street artist here in San Francisco. And it's so I'm super excited for this entire conversation. Um, and I want to talk about your influences, but But actually, when it I want I love you answered your own question. They're of of where is the specialness of I mean, I have my own, You're you're doing it. My own answer would be, Well, you're actually doing it. But for someone like Banksy, at least pre 2010 to what you're saying or for some of your work, you can say,

Oh, that looks simple. Like I have said, because I am a complete rube in so many museums of like, Oh, I don't get it, that's that looks so simple. And and I think it is, uh, well, one is a As you become a creator, you realize how much courage actually goes into just to use that as your full time. It's not this splatter of paint. It is a career of 30 years to get people to see that splatter paint. But where is the the actual magic sauce for a non artist. If you're saying that you could copy Banksy's work

yet, so I don't know if there is any magic sauce. So people think that Oh, these artists are these special kind of magical people that do this kind of ineffable thing. But ultimately, when you take a step back and artist is just typically a soul, a pure who's running a little business where they have a product, which is their art. And they have sales channels, which are traditionally art galleries or coffee shops. Now the Internet and you like there's some magic in creating any product, right? But, um, it's just about yeah, the product is just an aesthetic one, right?

So the the magic of Finch in some way it's just that I have figured out a way of creating multilayered stencils that I don't believe anyone before me quite figured out how to do it that way. Or maybe some of the ways I do it, people know. But the kind of aesthetic I'm going for in the kind of imagery I'm painting artist particular to me in my interest. But at that point is whether or not that that imagery resonates with the public and whether or not you get fans and people who want to support the work. Um, but again, when you look at any bit of it, look, I don't see any magic,

Really? That's it. Well, that's a good Yeah,

there's no magic and are

using to paint all of stuff. Yeah, we're drunk. I think that's I think that is metaphorically accurate for creation of all kinds. There's very little magic to it, and, um and it is the doing of it. And I think for for your art in particular is kind of a community around it, Um, that I think it's not. It isn't just the creation, but it's the persistent creation and the subconscious understanding that this will continue to be created. Yeah, that you're getting into this community, that is, you know, two X right now,

but will be why tomorrow Or and I don't think any I doubt. I don't know if anyone is actually articulately thinking that, but I think that is a big draw of it. And it does get bigger and bigger every year. Um, and your your imprint on the

city, it's bigger and bigger. Yeah, one The very bizarre things about art is that let's say you Onley paint one kind of thing. And so if you're launching a software product, then you're serving some sort of need, right, so till it goes out. And if it's a need and then you can see immediate uptake because people need it, you solve their problem and they'll take it. But art the value comes in a very different way. So you can think of are purchasing as either consumption or investment. Or rather, it's a spectrum between those two. So almost all art buying his consumption. You like the painting. It makes you happy. You buy it, you put on the wall the number of pains of people buy that they can actually re sell. You have the same value is just a vanishingly small percentage

and with the dollar amount makeup 80 20 the other the

other way. Um, I I don't know, because most of the investment is wanted by, like investment grade art, you're probably looking at Usually. Tens of thousands of dollars were hundreds of thousands of dollars to say every Monet that could purchase, like the Jeff Koons $91 million bunny that just sold, um, you know, is investment art and also

high dollar value. So that's what that's what remain of maybe the in terms of pieces bought. Oh, yes, that is Yes. Yes, yes, I was 9 to 1, but but dollars spent. Maybe it's 80 20. The other direction.

Yeah, but what's? So let's say that I wanted to say that you were starting to paint, and I'm hoping that the painting I'm buying from yours is an investment, right? Um, the number one risk but that is faced is that you will stop painting, right? And so you see this all the time, like people that were getting going in street art when I was getting going. A lot of those people just kind of burned out because it's a very long road and yeah, I mean, I think between going almost, yep, between getting into street art and being able to take it full time for me was probably about five years, and that's really fast, right?

So if this has to support you in some other way to support yourself, then you can't make I mean most people can't make over five years, right? and so long, people kind of just and again, that's on the fast side. Some people wait 10 years or 20 years before the next support themselves. So people, there's a huge number people that stopped painting. And, of course, when you stop painting, if you're not yet really established, you're never gonna be established. The paintings never have any resell value, so it's a long way to get to the one point,

which is that if you paint one thing and it's kind of same thing, you into any kind of aesthetic innovation, your work become more valuable over time. Even you keeping the exact same thing overtime, because once you've been doing it for 10 years, the odds you doing it for 10 more years is pretty high. But one year in the odds of you doing it for 20 years is quite low. And so this is bizarre thing in art, where it's where it's actually the persistence of continuing is intrinsic to the value of the art because you need to have this long art career where you go and really become established, accomplished things. It's not. There aren't really cases that I know of where people do like the one painting which has changes everything. And they ever do a second painting ever. And it's hugely valuable. That's not really how it works. Because although the value in art comes from the brand of the artist on a lot of value comes from sort of being out there impacting the dialogue around art. We're just not things that you could just snap it happen. Where is it? Software. You can get cases where you snap and something has a 1,000,000 users.

Well, it could be solving in need, right? Yeah. Where's art is always

a lug. A luxury? Yeah, exactly. So it's really bizarre. Um, and yes. So you're mentioned before it kind of the persistence of it, right? Sort of. I'm here just to keep keep painting things and try not to be trying to be impatient about Oh, you know, it should be this, or it could be that right? I just keep doing the work and here to four. It keeps, and I keep having more opportunities.

And, you know, I keep having more fans for the work, and I think part of that is just the fact that I just keep doing it right. I don't have to be any better. I mean, I hope I'm getting better, but, um, in theory, I don't have to get a huge amount better in order to keep

keep it in traction. And that adds to to what you're saying if there's no magic to it. Yeah, is, Is it can, when you get down to brass tacks are kind of plain vanilla. Just keep doing it.

Yeah, and the work needs to be good. Um, like idea. I call image market fit, which is sort of the equivalent to people people for his product market fit where it's like sometimes people paint things and people don't want to buy the thing that they're painting. But artists feel like, No, this is my soul. I could put my soul into this, and either a judgment on the painting is a judgment on them and their soul, or it's it's that's just sort of bound with them so they wouldn't change their what their painting, and they wouldn't change your style because that's them. But what I feel is I feel like one. You can't try to pander to people like it's I don't know profoundly don't know what people will actually like. All I could do is paint things that I like and have a faith that if I paint enough things eventually, we'll just get lucky and other people like it.

But I feel like I want to tell artists who are in the city scenario. I've seen artists in San Francisco that have just been at it for a long time, and they didn't have any sales. Their paintings 10 years ago. You know of any sales, the painting now. And if you don't want to be a working artist, that's totally fine. Like, I know artists that are just for personal enjoyment. I don't want to sell the paintings, don't support themselves off their art. And if that's the art that you're doing, that's a totally valid way to do it. And in fact, when you transition to trying to make an application,

no vocation like you're gonna lose a lot of the joy that you had when you started doing it. And it was just, you know, you you only painted when you were inspired to paint. Write like a professional painter. You paint, no matter what. Right. Um, but What I want to tell people is Just look back in your soul and just see if there's anything else in there and try that thing. And maybe it's a little bit different in style. It's adjacent, or maybe something totally different. And I feel like I could paint in a number of styles, and I feel like I haven't earned the privilege yet to try to really branch out more significantly, you see somebody,

um, like Gerhard Richter is probably the best example where he has his like sweetie paintings, and he has is like photo realistic paintings. But even someone ah like Damien Hirst. He's got his, you know, animals in formaldehyde and he's got his spots and he's got his spin paintings and they're all pretty different from each other. And each of those things are things that resonated with sort of the general public, and they found the things

to be engaging. How do you find those feedback loops that they're resonating as an artist? Is it just sales? Is it? Yeah. So, um,

if you have to ask, you don't have it right? So it's like the minute I did the honey bear I knew the next day that I was on something

I painted. It is because you knew or because someone was like, Oh, my

God, it was a couple that Yeah, I walked back by it. So I did it after not far from where we're sitting on a wall at a park in the valley and at the time, actually, it was removed. It was like current records only made it for three days. But in those three days, some instagram influencer posted it and that actually ended up in a book. And Urban Outfitters found my permission just like classic Urban Outfitters, and I would go by it And remember, there was this little girl that, like, demanded that her mother stop and take a photo of her in front of it and like kids were screaming at it. I was just saying that people were engaging with it. I'm gonna look back on the photo of it. It was terrible,

like I hadn't really figured out how to get clean layers with street art. Yet I was trying this technique to make it go much faster, where I kind of held the stencils off the wall to paint. Really quickly, but I made it look bad. And so, um, it was even a great version, and worth noting is I didn't make any money from art, probably for multiple years from that point, maybe a year and 1/2 before I sold my first painting to somebody that, you know, it wasn't my dad, but it was clear to me that something I was doing was interesting. Two people And there's been no response for

a lot of the imagery, that idea. So say that one more time. You you started selling the 100 hours a year and half after, or you're saying a year

and half into nobody, nobody tried to buy anything for me 1,000,000,000 that that was my dad for a year and 1/2 from the point that I painted the Honey Bear illegally at two in the morning on a park wall and and But I knew what I knew then when he painted it that people were injured in this like that, something here was was interesting and and I should keep, you know, exploring that

territory and have you painted. And how many years into painting were you at this at this point.

Probably a year

and change after my first street art piece. And, um And were you painting before that as well? Or

was some dark? I was illustrating before that, but I'd been illustrating, um,

since I was 14. Okay, so for a while. And, um, how do you tried? How many other things have you tried before? That point of the honey bear Where you you maybe got just as excited if, like I think this is. Yeah.

So this wasn't probably maybe the fifth thing. The first thing I do did with the dogs in the park. And I thought I would just be the dog dude and I looked around. So for the audience, the city has ah, dog part called the post Park. And it has this sign in on the sidewalk of where to keep your dog on leash. And so it's like a bathroom sign, man in like a lumpy German shepherd. So the first piece ever did was painted out the German shepherd and painted in a poodle. Same style, like just white from a side view. Uh oh, that was funny. And people liked it. Um is from seeing people interact with it. And so I was like,

Okay, cool. There's actually eight of these signs in the park. And so over the course of 2013 I slowly painted out all eight and replace them with other ones. And then I was like, I'm gonna be going to do this is gonna be my street art thing. And so I went around and looked at the next park and didn't have any dog walker stencils. And it took me about five years something before I found another one in the city. So, like, OK, that's bust. And then actually, the lips next I did on the cross walking Hayes Valley, and then for a while I'm busy. Okay,

I'm gonna be the guy that does stuff falling downstairs. So I did this like Dr Seuss fish spilling out of a bowl on the steps to them uni was like I could have a whole series of paintings that are things flying down the Munich stairs. Um, the meeting again for the audience is the public transit. One Republican systems we have in San Francisco. Um, but actually really tough painting and meet in Munich stairs because you're trapped. If somebody comes in blocks here, the top of the stairs after the station's closed, there's this a gate down below and so felt really exposed to paint there. And so, yeah, Then I think maybe then

I did. And when you say OK, this is the thing that I'm gonna do the falling down the stairs Was that for weeks at a time?

Yeah, I think I did two of them before I realized that the that the risk I didn't was too much of

a minute. Yeah, Orders. Lemonade? Yeah,

Yeah, I felt I felt a lot of things I could do. And union tresses. I still do have sketches and ideas from back then, but it just didn't quite manifest itself. Um, in a way that I like some of the ideas after, like, repel off of the, um like Ah, because when you're going down, this is like a flat area in front of you. I thought that would be a great area to address, but you know, you need to repel off the top to get to that area. So they have me hanging. If I were to drop,

I would still be trapped, because again, it's barricaded down below was like This is and also the entrance of immunity are on Market Street. So it's not like, you know, or yeah, it's not like they're low traffic locations. And so they're just really tough to pull those faces off. And so, yeah, I sort of just table the idea, and it's still thinks I could get back to at some point

what was the 4th 4th

Yeah, so I think the next thing was the Honey Bear. That's probably it. And that was the one that people liked. And so then I went. I was living in Mission at the time, so I started paying them on the mailboxes. And so I really figured out how to paint, um, kind of crisply. So I came up with this technique called Lapping, where I would paint five bears at a time on fight of mailboxes. And so I would paint the first layer on one and the first layer in the next and the next the next cause we're stencils. You're optimizing for dry time. And so the promise painting layers back to back to back to back is that the next layer is ripped up the paint from the previous one because the stencil makes contact with wet paint. And so I eventually figured out a way to basically bring down the three laps where I would paint the first in the second layer back to back where I would kind of rest the second layer on top of the 1st 1 And so it would be a little bit off of the wall and so would be fuzzy. But it didn't matter for the second layer,

because it's just like shadow layer. But the third layer has the eyes, nose and mouth. So think that's essential to be crystal. Then I wait, Wait, wait

and wait for that to dry and come back and for listeners were Look, I'm not looking at it right now, but Finch is actually looking at one of his pieces that, ah, that we purchased from him maybe a year or two ago. And, uh, so it's cool toe to know that that's here in the room? Yes, staring at that member. Yeah, he's watching me slightly awkwardly. Well, he's keeping the peace, keeping the peace in here with a known vandal. Well, okay,

so we know on those speaking of on those mailboxes. Was that illicit? Or was that like where you asked? Hey, we will love one.

So this is actually doubly bad because not only is it opinion, public property, but it's federal property. So if I were to get in trouble with the U. S. Government, not with City,

Which is this? The harder stick toe fight? Oh, so these are the blue mailboxes

dripping in the green mailboxes. So the relay boxes, which they happen to have a lot of in neighborhoods where it's hard to park, the male is transported. It's passed from like male person, a male person through these green boxes the public doesn't have access to, but they haven't exist on every major at every major intersection through the mission. There's one of those green boxes, and so they're bigger and they're cleaner on the signs. There's no sign. It's for people with instructions. Just this big green rectangle, and worth noting for the public, is that these would get crushed in graffiti like just totally crushed all the time. So the city just painted them. Sorry that the Postal Service painted them on like a two week schedule, so they could fill the tags,

and then they get paid in full attacks and painted because I was living there and I was walking around a lot. I would have noticed when they would get buffed. And then I would show up and paint my bear then and even eventually learned that, like, sometimes I would go out at two. In the morning, and they're already be a big tack in the box. So then I wouldn't address it because, you know, you don't paint street art over any graffiti. Um, So anyway,

what is that code? Is that kind of like, Yeah, artist cut straight ours code.

I learned that lesson the hard way. Really? Once I did it, and they just destroyed all the honey Paris, and I was like, Okay, cool. Like, I don't

know. What do you mean? They went around and found other

honey bears and just all the ones that were painted over tags that is painted back over in, like, a very aggressive way. And so, you know, one night once I did that and I was like, Okay, cool. Like that's not, um, you know how this works? I thought because what I was pulling off was much more intricate that they would sort of see that. Okay, cool. It's kind of a ruling. Graffiti where? Where if you do something more elaborate,

you can cover up a previous thing. But I'd understand that that that probably still applies in my case. But what I was missing was that you need to completely cover it, because if you can see the old thing behind the new thing, it's viewed as an insult on DSO. That's the same for me. Like if somebody tags over one of my pieces, then you know they purposely leave some of it to be seen. So I get the message

S o for a layman like myself. I just see paint over paint. But for you, you're kind of getting a message.

Yeah, if someone, I mean, there's some communication that happens and you see it. You see it mostly from tigers, the Tigers, right. You'll see people just hanging over the tags, techno, the tags and there's people that have beef with each other, right? So there's sort of like inner politics in that world. I'm sort of, you know, I'm on the periphery of it. Street artists. I thought initially that I would be sort of welcomed into that community,

like, Okay, we're all doing stuff that's illegal. We're all, you know, doing in the same places

on her amongst thieves

kind of thing. Yeah, but, um, but just the ethos that they have behind their work and ethos that I have behind my work, it's not the same. And so I sort of learned. Okay, cool. You don't view me is doing what?

What you do. And so, where does two separate communities? I know nothing about this world. So you'll have to tell. What are the two ethos of What? What's the difference between okay? Tagging illustrators?

Yeah. So I'm gonna give you my definitions, which are not necessarily. They're just mine. And there's much debate to be had. And I'll put in asterisks at the end of this with a couple of notes, So I would make a two by two matrix. Um, you've got art and not art. You've got commissioned and noncommissioned.

So to me, Art and not art. Commissioned in UN commission and a building by two matrix, we found ourselves back into an Excel spreadsheet. Exactly

so to me. street art is UN commissioned. Public art graffiti is UN commissioned, not art. Murals are commissioned public art and things like advertisement are commissioned, not art, and define art in a super poster shop way. If you think that it's our then it's art, that's my definition. So if that is your intentionality behind the creation, I'm gonna give you the benefit out. We're gonna call it Art. You say it's bad art, but so I would consider sort of like wild style graffiti like kind of like really intricate pieces with many colors. I would call that street art for what it's worth. So the first that's the first Asterix here is that graffiti. You gonna find it that way?

There's a legal definition to it in the California Public Works code. There's sort of an aesthetic definition for people like sort of letter forms generally word base, and there's much debate within the community like our characters, graffiti or not like characters came about, you know, very early in the Ark. Graffiti they do. They're they're tagged, um, or their piece. And then they would do like a character next to it. Um, but there's still debate to this day about whether

not, like, what's an example of

a character, like a person or a face Or, um, this guy named Body that was an old comic book artist. Maybe you call a graphic novels? Not exactly sure, but people would use, like, cheat. Wizard, is this wizard with a hat pulled all over. So people would think that sort of next to their piece next to their piece. Right? So they do their crazy. So I'm, um, call.

I'm gonna call that street art. Um, unless, of course, have permission from the owner to do it. In which case I'm gonna call it a mural. Um, yeah. So? So when it comes to questions like, what if they're not doing art? What are they doing, right. And so the best answer to that is that they're playing a game with each other, and the game is. So to get status in that community,

you have to do many things like many tags, high up tags, intricate tags, right? You know, it's like, hard to get places. Um, and there's lots of repetition or gets you status, and I think it attracts a certain kind of person. I mean, typically, people get into graffiti it say, 12 years old ish 10 14 And they're probably my experience. I've been there sort of like loner kids that maybe have a little bit of trouble interacting socially and so they can get status and respect solely off their own effort. Like you have to take,

oh, take risks and hustle and climbed drainpipes and jump roofs and being a ladder. And if you do that, you do it well, then you get respect. You don't have to talk to anybody to do it. You just need to, like, do it.

When I was 12 springs back my tagging memories. When I was 12 I took spray paint to a neighbour. The Yemen's Matt Damon was about six years older and was kind of bully block. And so I took a scraping Vigilante justice. Yes, well, not justice. It was Yeah, it was his parents. Obviously, we're the unintended casualties of this story and and myself, I got no respect off of that fact. I got caught, Uh oh, pretty quickly, and then I don't remember what happened, but I for sure as hell no,

I didn't get any respect in attacking community from it. Yeah, but okay. Keep going. You did

it. Dip your toe in the water past if you kept it up.

Yes, it was the persistence thing. Yeah, I think people loved it. Ah, you ostensibly maybe loved it, but they But once I stopped creating that art, Yeah, the community fell away. Okay, So s so interesting. It's a little game with each other

with each other yet and for staff were mostly, like collateral damage. Basically, like, if your street are, sir No, no, no. Oh, just like they did with the citizens and especially the property owners. So if you're Amon pot business trying to run you a coffee shop and someone you know describes which is etches into your window or it takes an acid pen and asked a passing benches in your window, you're now out 2000 bucks or 3000 bucks. And

that was is that Is there a, uh, unspoken, By the way. Apologies, tow Mister Misses game. And, um, is there a kn unspoken code of like, how much you you vandalize or don't vandalize?

Yeah, So we place people. Most of the people tend to be pretty decent, and there's sort of just a culture of where you do it. And so construction sites, the backs of signs, mailboxes, any kind of public property typically open game sidewalks. But graffiti and street art are in anarchy. And as a kid I thought that anarchy was the fall of the Soviet Union, people throwing Molotov cocktails. And then when I went to Burning Man, I realized that anarchy is just a system where the rules are enforced through culture, not through the big stick of the law. And so, if you the there will always be dissident actors who go out and get do things like tag on Mom pop businesses, Windows most really serious taggers won't do that because one they don't want to get arrested for that,

Um, and you know, that's the thing that the like yet the public and turn on you and I've seen maybe two or three instances on time. But in San Francisco, where somebody just really crossed the line and did a bunch of you know, very bad property damage to sort of normal people on the graffiti side or straight on the good side. And, you know, people start looking out and reporting them, and then they get arrested and go to prison. But

for how long? What's

the what's the, um Well, I'll tell you. Graffiti of damages over $500 is a felony in California. So the last one, I don't know how long this guy is serving, but this guy Crist Sierra, Y S t. He was hit with, like, 35 felony charges when he got picked up, so I don't know, but yeah, it's very serious, right? Um and so partly. But people don't want to that because they're not stupid.

It's just, you know, you can go get plenty of tags on places like a great place that people like to tag is if you're on a rooftop and the building next door is taller, you can paint onto that under that wall saying on one roof, so it's not gonna get removed. It gets you out of status because it's up high. So what? I'm mostly reporting this as an observer. I'm just you

know, how many how many people are, how many, uh, taggers are there and a city like San Francisco?

I couldn't say. I mean, dozens is probably so. It's not like 300. Now. It's like I'm 50. Yeah, a question I'd like to ask people I play various like, not fun party games. Rest of these questions, one of them is like, How many street artists do you think there are in San Francisco in any given month? And the answer is certainly less than 10. Like, there's no way that there are 10 people doing things that they believe are illegally in San Francisco in a month Street artist. She darts. Yeah,

maybe there's 10. Certainly feel that. Yeah. Um and I mean, you haven't even months. I mean, probably us in five. And there certainly are months that I've been here where it could be as few as one or zero. It's sort of like if a clear Bandersnatch is traveling that month, then nothing gets done.

Who are some of the ones that you, uh, you look around the city? You see

prolific people right now? Um, sole mission s. Oh, well, uh, it's how it's spelled. He's doing sort of Does these honey notes that he I met him. Okay. It's a big world. Okay. Um, yes. So he's been doing these pieces. Oh, yes. Sorry. If I just how did his gender but probably won't reveal who he is.

Well, it does eliminate half the city. Yes, I'm sorry. All right.

Um, he sort of does these animals that are cut outs where he'll lay them on the ground and spread it all around them. So they're kind of in the negative space. There's a woman named Claire Bandersnatch. She does. He sort of like 19 fifties style men and women and sometimes with glitter, Um, sometimes political in nature. Um, so she's a lot of pieces around. You're still sees stuff from Jeremy Novy, the guy that paints the koi fish. I think he's mostly legal at this point, but, um is right there. You can see peeking up. Beautiful. Um, sometimes also still do stuff that's illegal. Um, but not as much these days that I can actually make

barrels. Do you get get graduate to a place? Where is it a graduation in your career, or is it a choice? A certain

point? Yeah, it's a choice. And it's just when you start, no one will trust you with a mural wall from and the ark from first Street art. Wanting to paint a mural to getting us to paint a mural was again many years. And it's just nobody trusts, you know, like now, um, I'm in a fortunate position that people just email me being like, Hey, could I pay you to paint on the outside of my building? I'm like, Yeah, that sounds great, right?

I can do it in the daylight paint. Try as much faster in the day. I can go bigger. I don't worry about being arrested. Right. So the illegal nature of my work was not necessarily intrinsic to the work. I mean, it was intrinsic, and so far as I was only painting on public property. And so I was trying to do these public property interventions that were interesting to me. And I still can't cancel do some of those interventions. Um,

but intervention. Is that it? Is that

your word or is that Oh, yeah. I just think that maybe my word, um, yeah, I just There's something that they're already and I'm just kind of, you know, co opting

in some fashion. Well, in improving and how we met was at DuBose Dubose Park. Um, and um, maybe you're walking around looking at your work. But we met there, and I remember seeing the one day the little poodle wasn't there. And then the next day wasn't loved it. It was like a face left. Two to the

park. Yeah. Yeah, the the ethos I have on that. Is that the work? If I'm gonna go out and do something illegally in public space, it needs to be additive, right? And so Well, what's additive? Um, let's say if you take a vote of everyone who saw it, half or more of people would say that it is. Um and I certainly don't know if that's true or not. I just have to use my best. Would agree. I would agree with that.

Yeah. Yeah. So this is partly why my work is very rarely political, because if it is a true political topic, um, it's cold buckle because it's divisive and most divisive issues. You know, our, um if they're truly divisive than their 50 50. And so if one person doesn't like the placement or the fact that it's illegal, um, then I'm already at, you know, whatever 50.1% of people who see it don't think it should be there. And therefore I think it should be there. Um,

yes, that's kind of the probably why It's sort of, you know, the goals or change your perspective on public space that you see it and you're like, Oh, we don't have to have boring public parks. Oh, we can actually use mailboxes as a canvas. This is not just something that we just put up with us being this kind of ugly blooded object in our neighborhood that these are actually a compelling canvas, but only to enrich the lives off our residents and our visitors, but also to risk the lives of our artists to give them a platform to express themselves in public. Really anybody who

feels the need to express themselves? Yeah. So what better than a billboard? Ah, Bill. Hoping ah company expressed themselves. It's Ah, Sela pron your getting the chance. And on that on that point, actually, in 2019 what are the upsides and downsides you mentioned? It's and a lot of ways is ah, Nordeste year, just to sell a preneurs, and you know that I was actually just reading a stat that there's there's 10 million small business owners in the U. S. And there's 38 million home business owners.

Many of them are. Side is that's almost 50 million people that have on there's some overlap there, but 50 million people anywhere from 40 to 50 that our creators professionally and, um, and entrepreneurs professionally as a solo preneurs, um, want to chat a little bit about that aspect of the job. Um, what is in 2019 1 of the upsides and downsides of being a celeb preneurs artist? Actually, it doesn't have to just be contained within so a premiership. But what is the upside of the downsides of creating yard and going out and being able to be an artist? Yeah, that can get known on instagram things like

that. But so I'm just a little caveat, which is? I've graduated from solar preneurs. Entrepreneur doesn't have people actually helped me do things. Okay, I so have an art assistant and I do some work, Um, with every part time, Um, yeah, I have some help with, like, logistics. And then I have some help from art manager. So that's been a nice move toe not just be one person, but the challenge with art.

Let me say this first and then I'll answer your questions. So the challenge with art is that the market is very small. So to give some numbers, the total traditional fine art market that is, every auction, including the one for the defense keeping that was $400 million the Jeff Koons $91 million money. Every art fair art, Basel, Maastricht, whatever. And every art gallery is roughly 67 billion last year. That's like less than apples, 1/4 profits. And so what happens is success. Financial success is distributed on a power curve, so it's like exponential and from industry industry,

you to shift that curve up and down and art just move it all the way down. So if I had to guess, I would say that the median artist is earning $0. It's on the work, whereas in San Francisco, the media and software entrepreneur is probably earning $100,000 a year the 99th percentile artist. So way up on that curve on the right, we're starting to go very vertical. It's the 99% of artist that earns $100,000 a year. And so especially San Francisco, which is a city where you probably don't want to live here for a lesson hundreds of dollars a year again, this is before the cost of making your art, you know, and anything else that sort of like,

you know, it's just top line revenue

revenue. Yeah, right. Um, you know, that's that's a pretty tough proposition, and so that's why you don't see. So this caused all sorts of distortions, which is what makes being artist so hard and why your soul a printer. So if you're setting a software company and you're dressing a market, that's, you know, a trillion dollars, then it makes sense to have one person whose business focused on one person whose product focused. But when you're an artist, you can't afford to support two people can afford a sport. One person,

unless you're you know, not in the 1% but in the 10.5% actual support to people off your practice. And so you get is that you're forced to be solo. You're forced to do both the artistic component and the quote unquote business component right where you're, you know, selling paintings to people, right? Trying to figure out where do I put this thing? Doesn't go in a coffee shop, does go on the Internet. Whatever. Get back to your question. The good news of 2019 is that we have this space to show your artwork that has a very large walls, and it's called the Internet. Right. So for a long time,

the channel that you use to get your art to the public was an art gallery. And the art gallery is a very tough business model because they have to pay rent. And so there's a fixed amount of wall space that it could have been the victim of shows per year. They can do typically one per month and so and then have to staff it with somebody has to sit there and take the sales and be rude to you and they When you did run the numbers, the paintings have to be of a certain price in order to make the model even work. So the first time I had aren't in actual art gallery. They argue my prices up. You think that I'd be the one arguing prices up and they should argue them down, so they sell better. It was the opposite. I was like, No, I think this painting should sell $400 they're like, we can't make our biz metal work on 100 because they get half of the sale. Which building is outrageous? 0/2.

It is a lot, but it's this sort of the standard retail markup. So if you were a T shirt wholesaler or what if you sell the headphones that we're wearing, you know, typically the wholesale prices on

behalf of the retail price, so they might only sell 8% of their of the actual art in there. Exactly 50%. It's not 50% 0 yeah, it's so

the mass becomes very tough. And so the business don't work very well. So the ratio of the number of artists that want to be artists to number of galleries that actually can show work, um, his way, fewer galleries. But you have to do this whole, you know, like, um, Galapagos, you know, tufted pigeon dance. In order to try to get, you know, you get to go to one of great reference. Um, you know. It's like I think birds of Paradise might be The refs of

going for was what I was thinking. But I didn't want to say Okay, so totally

OK, so you get to go to one of these four art schools and you have to do so great in this thing and the other thing, right? And then this channel, that's, you know, super small. They needed to thread your way through. And so, um yeah, I was incredibly hard, and almost nobody gets it. And then the alternative options, you know, are things like coffee shops and whatnot, which are actually great venues to sell art in many ways because they're open very long hours. But you might not be the best place to exhibit your work,

depending on the kind of work that you make etcetera so fast. 2019. I mean, the real true to me, the combo, like the 12 punch, is Instagram and Shopify. Instagram has a plan for me to show visual things to the public. It's a pretty good match for visual heart, right? And so I maintain

it for free. Keep your margins globally exactly 24 7

It's not just people who are local and, um yeah, so, like, that's great. And then the other thing Shopify is an e commerce platform and they just let you have a store where you sell things and that you a lot more than that. They can track inventory I by shipping for paintings from them. So I have, like, a label printer that prints at a label that's already paid for and slap it on the package that I've you know, that the boxing in the painting and drop it off at the post office and then boom, it goes out. So there's a lot of, um, a lot of crazy things that it does that, you know, maybe 10 years ago were very hard to dio.

And so, um, you these open up new opportunities. So the challenge of the opportunities is the same challenges you have on platform like YouTube. Any of these mass platforms? ITunes, where or the app store, where when the possibility distribution becomes really cheap, you're gonna get a lot more entrance who want to try to participate and you know it's to me. It all comes down to the movie. Read it. Chewie, not stay with me for a moment. Not everyone can be a great chef, but anyone can be a great chef. So not everyone can succeed as an artist.

It's actually gonna be even more competitive than it was before. In some ways, because now you're competing, there's everybody's out there on Instagram. But it empowers anyone who can put the pieces together correctly to be able to get the workout and someone that the work is strong. And if you maneuver in an appropriate fashion, you can now have. This opportunity didn't exist before. And so I found over time I keep like, I'm very curious.

I loved everything. That's really that's both amazing and, ah, heartbreaking, because it means that it the the floodgates are open for anyone to be able to do it. But it counterintuitively still means very few people will be able to do it. So what

you'll probably see is that if I to make a guess, it's that the number of people trying goes up, Um, a lot. The percentage of success goes down, but the overall number of winners goes up, so we get more great art. But at a smaller hit right um, Anyway, you are completely accustomed this because, as the cost of launching a software company has gone basically to zero, right, we see so many people trying to launch

offer. Cos the adage is it's never been easier to start a company. It's never been

harder to build one. Yeah, exactly, right. I mean, you just see so many people just give their swing and you get very random people like Shopify was started

in Canada. Ontario? Yeah, I think

beautiful. Right? And that's not what you think. A traditional tech company would be started and they were bootstrap, I think for a very long time and demonstrated a team. And so it's like, you know, and they're huge. I think they're public now on there. A multi $1,000,000,000 company,

right? The there pretender for Amazon's throne. And they're yes, started Ontario.

Yeah, exactly like that is a massive success. But you know, how many Ontario startups have we not heard off, right? Start around the same time, right? And so it's got the same. Same will be true. And art is just the platform is different. You might launch on just like the General Webb with a website or on an APP store like the iPhone app store of the Android app store for us might launch an instagram. In my case, the instagram thing people make Maur to do about that, then I think they should. To me, it's a game was more of like a signal. Um, I'm gonna go

in a little side. Can you please? I was actually just about to ask. You have been the keys. T o

s o. So here is a below the line revelation. So right, Um, I distinguish between a fan and a follower. So a follower is somebody who knows what you're up to. They would know who you are. Ah, fan is kind of in the Kevin Kelly 1000 True fans fashion that somebody was gonna come to an art show. Buy a painting. Come on, event. Somebody's really a supporter of what you D'oh! And the fans pay the bills. The followers don't pay the bills To me, Instagram is a follower platform. Yes,

I have fans that are on it, but the majority of it No, The point, Kevin Kelly, is that if you have 1000 people that pay you $100 a year. There's $100,000. And if you're doing just like a basic Internet thing alone in a cabin somewhere, that's enough toe live on, right? Um, and so his point was that the Internet can empower. You know that you have to focus on the mass market using focus on just 1000 people, right? And, you know, in Instagram Land,

I'm someone of a tweener. It's like I've 63,000 followers, something that sounds like a lot, but it's not really like a massive sales platform unto itself. We don't need anything else until maybe you're half a 1,000,000 followers or 1,000,000 followers before you just kind of do anything, like do things on it. And then money just comes out the far end. Um, I think it's more people always talk about it, but the reality is that when you look at the percentage of my following that's in San Francisco on Instagram, it's like 10% broken. The sales of my paintings from San Francisco, it's like 75% right? And so what's actually happening is that people the fan's air coming from like seeing a mural on the street where I think even the ones that are not San Francisco. Somebody came to San Francisco. They were just being a tourist.

They were going around and they saw they saw a couple paintings and then they became a fan. And then they went home. And then I saw something launch on my website. And then they bought it right and maybe the fellow minister came first. But again, it's sort of, um, I'll call a mirage, but it sort of just like a hand wavy

for something. Sometimes they overlap, and sometimes they don't. I'm such a huge fan, but I don't follow you on instagram. I don't follow that many people on on Instagram and, um actually, I mean, I actually might follow you, but I don't not on instagram that often. And, um and I think that's that is I was going through. My mind is it's somewhat interesting to understand that, yes, that can be well, especially for artists and visual mediums. Where you'd think that is,

then don't be all Instagram. Actually, it's just a partial story. It might be the easiest way to see a scoreboard. Exactly end downside, see the comparative scoreboards. But it actually might not be nearly as painful is what you've been doing

exactly. It generates opportunities for sure, especially when you start hitting certain levels. You start getting the attention of brands in a way that you couldn't before. But if I didn't have it, look, I get I think the actual like what I'm actually doing that so impactful is, you know, in any given year I'm certainly painting more murals in San Francisco than anybody else. There might be times when painting more murals than everybody else. Like it's a thing that I just make my religion and keep it the center of my art practice trying to do cool public art projects. And it's not where my income comes from. My income comes almost the vast majority that comes from selling paintings like from Fine Art Budges,

where your fandom

comes, Yeah, but it's actually like it's both what I'm passionate about. Like I didn't get in to being a painter because I thought it was gonna make you rich, right? I got into it because I was feeling very stifled and I wanted to do something cool for San Francisco, and I was a fan of street Art was a fan of banks. Have the fan. Shepard Fairey was a fan of invader, but they don't have the many pieces here or any pieces here at all. I was like, Well, I'm seeing all this stuff on the Internet. That's amazing. And I love the kind of work in San Francisco. Oh, I'm so upset.

Nobody's doing it on him. Said he was doing it. Okay, I'll be the change I want to see in the world. I guess I won't be the one who does it.

What? What attracted you to their work? What was it about their work that they became influences So before you are straight, aren't you? Yeah.

I was a fan of others. You artist first and then kind of cool. I could do something and not trying to be as good as them, but just trying, you know, put my hat in the ring, do something added for the community. So for me, really, I love about those artists. Work is it creates cognitive dissonance where you realize that the piece is illegal. And, you know, I come from a very, um, like American values family, you know,

and there's a law in usually follow it. Right. Um, and the idea that Okay, well, here's something that's clearly illegal, which is bad, but I like it and I want it. I think it should be here. But so I this conflict internally and the resolution of that conflict, you know something? I I seek to create my own work. Now, I try to create dissonance, and I hope that when you resolve it, you resolve it by realizing the law is wrong and that we should have art in the spaces.

And the Postal Service should have a mural program and the parks alliance, sir. Sorry. Part sf. Whatever. Parks should have a mural program and try to facilitate more of this work. I mean, there are products in public parks, but it's a very hard thing to get done. And as far as I know, there's no way to paint a mural on a mailbox like good luck with that one. That's the long

term statement. Um, I imagine there's also some appeal of the short term statement this already is willing to sacrifice on personal livelihood to produce, to make this statement or to prevent abuse. This work

for you to give you happiness, joy or free thought whatever. And to me, I feel as a community member feel it makes you feel cared for. Someone was willing to risk their personal safety and at the very least, get less sleep in order to do something for you that's gonna enrich your life, right? And so that makes me feel kind of warm and fuzzy inside. I'm gonna hope to create that woman Fuzzy and somebody else, right? And so, yeah, the fact that it's illegal, it's more about that. You could get it into cool places. And I sometimes think about street art as, um um,

I got to go back to Excel spreadsheet. So there's this concept in game Three of a stable equilibrium. And so it's, you know, if there's various parties and they're all behaving in one fashion, if one person were to defect and do something different, it doesn't work. They get kind of pulled back whatever else is doing. But you gonna have a system with with multiple stable equilibrium where it's like if everybody would only act this other way, then everyone would be better. But we can't get there because everyone is to do it at once, right? And so you to talk back to burning Man. If everyone is willing to talk to each other while they're standing in line for coffee, the world is just a better place. Like we're not sitting around either bored or totally tuna from our community or working on our phones.

You know, I think it's actually better if we have to have interaction of community members. But now, if you were talk somebody in line waiting for coffee, you're gonna think you're really weird, right? But that's just the default of burning Man. You just talk to your neighbors like a human being, right? It's on the same

way here, the other baseline to make someone's day in San Francisco on the street. It's so low, just a smile and exactly how you don't. It takes people by surprise. Uh, all the time here in our in our neighborhood

contact. In a way, I contact a wave, but you're weird. All right, You know,

you're you're kind of taken with potential Rio Risk or hit, but But I'd say three out of four times

the person is like leaving. It turned out to be totally fine, right? And this case is, well, everyone so afraid. You know what if we put this art project even from legal stuff like, you know? So we having situations where we can't put any art onto a public property without huge expense and effort, and especially if you're a young person, there's zero probability of that happening right to politick your way to a public park. It's a zero probability, so, but everyone would be better off if you just did it. And so the law says, you can't do it, so you just do it and then then you just make the world better right inside of me,

like the illegal aspect of it is the knife that cuts from one side of the world to another state of the world where there's no way to get from a to B unless you just take it into your own hands and you just do it right. So I think that's what I was seeing as well in the bank. See, pieces like Wow, this piece is so cool and definitely in Richard this community, but there was no way he can go and get permission

to do this thing. What year was this when you started toe become aware of

yet? So it's funny. I want to look at a timeline of this once, so I have this distinct memory of waking up like sophomore year. So it would've been junior year of college and bank. He was in New York, and every morning I would check my phone to see because he did a month in New York, that piece every day, and he had it on the website. Um, and I remember waking up in The first thing I'd do is refresh boat up to the time line, actually think like two years after I graduated. And so it's like in my head I have this very clear memory of it. But this sort of the way that we fabricate memories is like the timeline couldn't possibly work out that way, so I don't actually know. I think it was in college, but it might have been a little bit after college. It was certainly before I moved to San Francisco and which would have been 2011.

Interesting. Okay, so about 2011 and you had been on illustrator since you're 14 What are your What was your path to becoming an actual artist? And what was the below the line kind of narrative in your head or dialogue in your head? Because it sounds like you took a few years before you decide. Okay, I'm actually you haven't even do this on side, much less. All right. I'm gonna do this. Seriously?

Yes. So the turning point of wanting to create Well, it's where two factors I wanted to meet creating the kind of art critic now with one is that I want to start putting art in my house. And so I bought a painting and it exhausted my entire art budget in one painting. Because art most

art is expensive. What was in the painting? And

it's actually it's awesome. S So it is a painting, um, of Bill Murray. Actually, it's Bill Murray. How I describe this. If there's an empty face with, like stars in it and and then there's masks, there's these hand going home. These masks and each mask is a face of Bill Murray from a different Wes Anderson film. All right. Um, yeah. And so it was from an art show at a gallery called Spoke Art That has that kind of is a show called Bad Dads, which is art of Wes Anderson Films. So I'm a big was Anderson fan.

Favorite movie is actually fantastic, Mr Fox. So it's swimming. The painting is that they had the badger face in with the faces of When Eyes Kingdom and that Arjun Limited and Rushmore and whatnot. So that was the painting is maybe about 24 by 24 by 15 inches. Whatever. It was like $1000. And that was a lot of money to me at the time. How'd you come across it? I went to the big with innocent fan.

I'm going to the art show. Jackson, By the way, I saw it. Oh, yes. Hashtag Texan hashtag notice. All right,

so yeah, I just went to the bad dad's opening. I saw it and I spotted immediately. And one thing that you sort of learn about, um if you collect art in that there really is like the value of art comes perfect scarcity. Right. So this is a hand painted painting. It's only one of it. And so oftentimes, when you see something that you like you know you like it. If you can afford it, you just pull the trigger, right? Like you don't wait because you're gonna lose it. And there's paintings that I've lost because I can't like Hamden holiday Never. Right. So I just I just learned that I know what my taste is.

I know it, but over time, I taste is develop to be much more specific. Right? So you know this certain artist I've been waiting for you in pieces in a style I like for energy that I like at a price point I can afford And then you see it and then boom, use political. And usually I'm buying pieces now, before the show even opens because you get the collectors preview is the whole weird art world thing, right? And even then you might not even get it. You need to be enough of a collective in this gallery in order to qualify to get the painting and, you know, anyway, so there's a whole rigmarole to the traditional art system. But I was I got that painting. I was like,

Okay, I have a lot of wall space left, but there's one little 24 inch by 15 and pain doesn't really fill it. I was like, Well, you know, I've been doing this illustrations that for a long time, Like when I make something. So that was one part. The other part is that I, um, had worked with my roommate in college. Um, we started a little company together at the end of college, and he had he had a background in craft designed as well. Um,

product design. His parents were both, um, crab designers, doing like book jackets and things. And so he and he worked in a design firm. He kind of worked on nerve blasters and middle fires and making things. So he knew about the laser cutter, which is a machine that you can take a digital file, and we'll cut with a laser beam something. And so he made kind of our logo out of acrylic. We kind of put it on the wall. And that was a moment of him, like, Whoa, I can take these digital skills I have of being a digital illustrator. I'm working on for

years, and you're low meaning. What

do you mean, your logo? It was like the company logo Okay, so it's like, you know, um, this will be a little hard to cut out, because it's I'm setting it at the below the line logo blacker. Yeah, but your typical logo is gonna just be kind of one culture school word, Mark. Right? And so that is kind of just got cut out. That was kind of, you know, velcroed it to the wall. And and I've never even heard of this thing before.

And so I realized that that kind of putting these two things together. Okay, I'm gonna go and come up with something. And the first thing I did, actually, I didn't even draw the artwork. That is went thio website I'm obsessed with called the Noun project, which has icons for every time that every now, So I got. So if you want, um, mostly for like designers, right? But if you want, you say headphones will have kind of like a one color headphones icon. So I just sent that away to a company called Tinoco That does custom laser cutting for you.

You just basically upload their website. And then they sent me back, um, acrylic cutouts. And what was the second Ah, ha. Moment or the third. I guess in this case is that they send it to you. You order it, say, from a 15 by 15 of acrylic and they send you the whole thing. You gonna peel back this tape and the peace that you wanted false flew in the middle and you're left with this negative, like the negative space. And that was one being like, Holy crap. This is a stencil.

Like I was going for the product, That thing in the middle, which was I didn't icon of, like, a crow and a duck and a kiwi bird. And I gotta put those above my desk. Just I used three in command strips to just put it on the wall, and I was like, Cool is an art piece and it fills up room, and it cost me 10 bucks for right. You know, I just got the town's website and set them up in Elko. Or, you know, maybe 30

years. You weren't participating in this creation at all at this point. Yeah. I mean, spot years. Yeah. I always things together.

Yeah, I was piecing it together. Yeah, I wasn't I mean, I was sitting in the creation and so far is like, um, yeah, they're getting a whole philosophical, but this is more like a ready made, you know? So when the shop takes the journal on hanging on the wall, you know, I mean, he's I was creating the artwork, but I wasn't. I was using ready made components. I guess maybe is more accurate in this case,

it's ready. Made schedule component inside of a ready made object. Um, you know the best. The first to Sean Piece was trouble. Sorry. This variety where he took a shovel that he bought in harbor stories, put it in art gallery. You can see it at the New York mama. It's actually a stunning piece of artwork, but it's sort of the beginning of deconstructing like, What does it really mean to make art?

Is is he the artist that has oak tree and, um, in the Tate Modern buys a water

and not sure, but that sounds like the kind

of thing to show you a glass of water called oak tree. Yeah. Okay.

Beautiful. So anyway, so So I get the negative space and religions a stencil, and so at that point. The wheels are now spinning and something. Okay, I'm gonna make another painting for my house, and I'm gonna draw using Max illustration skills. And I made the swan, um, which I then paint it and hung. And but even already at that moment, the idea of going into painting on the streets was already there. And the point of doing it on the canvas was just to kind of get my skills to a level that I thought

I could pull this off. We need to go from on your wall to on the

streets I might have done to paintings on campus. I think I did the penguin next. And

then I think I went out. And but, I mean in your head. Oh, when you're because it sounds like you went from a process of me from my wall. As

soon as I realized that the negative space with the stencil, then I was like, Cool. I could go do something. Thanks. He does cool. It was just there, like, that concept was just appeared in my head. And I'm enough of an irreverent person like I'm a big spirit of the law. Manned right where it's like, Okay, um, you know, um, yeah, actually,

yeah. So it's sort of like I think this, you know, enrich the world and make the city a better place. Um, and like my grandfather said something, which is he has many great sank. One of them is they don't do anything that you wouldn't want to see on the front page of The New York Times. And so even though I'm still anonymous, if I were completely outed, I would stand behind anything that I've done. Um, you know, and maybe I've done things on occasion that were a bit of a misstep. Um, but but,

you know, they're all well intentioned. I'm not. You know, I don't think I'm a nefarious character. Um, and so, yeah, definitely. You know, again, I'm not saying I'm, um, above mistakes, but I'm saying that I would stand behind my mistakes, too, because they're you know, that's just part of doing things. You have to be able to do

things that don't work. So that's that's how you got started. What? When was the transition of doing it full time? And what was that like?

Yes. So when I got started, I didn't have a vision that it could be a full time. Think like that wasn't even remotely on my radar. And I remember a moment where

I was, and I know you. You're you gotta be hazy on some details. Yeah, for the anonymity. But what were you doing full time or what? Were you entertaining our thing? Yeah.

So, um so, yes. So I was, um So I had a job at the time that I started doing it. That was I felt very stifling. And so I wanted to be creative. And so I got into doing this as a way to do something different and creative. Kind of on my own terms that I thought was cool. Um, that wouldn't be viewed as like moonlighting. And so that's why I started. But then probably about two years in, I got out of that. And then I'm flipped over to making art. The main thing that I did, um and so when I did that transition,

what years were these?

So they would have been like 20

15 started in 2013

after, like, 13 is a roughly 13. 14 was doing it on the side as a hobby.

And when did you come up with Finch? The

name? Probably around 2014. There. The first couple pieces. The honey bear wasn't signed the first time. It was around the time of the Honey Bear. Probably so. The lips were never signed in his valiant, and those were never removed. Those has faded away. Um, some people knew just when he's like, I wasn't there to get the positive reaction to see if that the lips are after one of the images I paint that works that resonates with people. But I wasn't able to get that feedback in the same way because I couldn't see it on social media, you think? And so I had an opportunity the first time that I got to show art in a gallery. Um,

I was painting on a construction site next to John Ross at the time, had the in Ross Gallery and he sort of, ah, very established muralist end of area. And so he saw me painting. I did some lips. He's like, Whoa, you're the guy that did the lips Hayes Valley out. And so is it cool like Wanted Put Art Gallery and I was like Whoa, like my goal for this. That was like come January 2015. My goal for that year was get art in a coffee shop and like, out of the gate. So I was like, Let's put it in an actual art gallery And I think that's crazy. And so that was a resident with him and create that opportunity

interesting and way I feel like I have to ask, Where did the name Finch come from and moves that process? Yes. Oh,

yeah. Finch was my middle school nickname because my two best friends were girls who were five foot nine and I was five foot zero at the time and £100. And so I think I was just like the little finch. And so I had that. And then my mom's family. Chris lot of bird related artwork. So my grandfather cars wouldn't crows or carved passed away. And then my mother, well, you know, make maybe glass plates with birds, and then my aunt makes it so, like die Rama's with birds. And so this sort of a thing

think the sirens air for you. They might come here.

So, um, the bird theme was something I was looking for. And so I basically started trying names to try to get a handle. Basically, that would work. And I knew at the time getting us something that would work in the social media handled. I thought that Twitter was gonna be the platform. I don't even know what instagram at this point, and I did. I had with Kacey Towe have a two way dialogue. So you go to this art out there in the street and you want to be able to get some feedback on the other direction. So I thought that was the point of doing this. And so I basically started trying Spellings and I don't know how many spelling trying for ended up with double NCH Finch, um, and so that you know, it's It's a weird name in so far as there's no foul in it,

so it's not obvious how to pronounce it, but it's a good name in so far as if there wasn't a bought squatting the Twitter handle. Then I got F double N c h dot com. Totally unregistered. I got it on instagram. You know I have it on Snapchat. Even though I don't snap or chat, you know, it's just it's a name you can get because there's no so, you know, to have a five letter handle, so But I didn't want to use I don't want it to seem like techie. I didn't want a gnat symbol in front of it. I didn't want, um a special character, like an underscore.

His felt weird to me and not sort of, you know, I didn't want to detract from the, you know, the warm nature of the art by having maybe slightly cold, um, handle next to it. And so, yeah, that's that's what does The name is a very bizarre process. And again, I wasn't. I knew that I wanted it because I liked. And so he started painting things without the name. Um, because I was gonna wait to paint because I don't have a name for this.

Summer's gonna How do you then how did you find the honey bear without your name? How did you find it on social media,

I think. Yeah. Did I sign that one? I've looked at photos. I think it might have been when I started on the mailbox, and I started to sign them. Um, I actually don't know how. If maybe I looked at hash honey Mayor, maybe somebody sent it to me. I think the person who posted it had enough of the following that. I said that kind of got back around to me like maybe a friend saw it or something. Um, I became aware that it happens like, Oh, cool. You know, um, that that just seem like a sign is on the

right track. And in 15 you're asked to be in a

Yeah, eso sort of kind of early that year is when I kind of stopped doing, like, a real job. Um, or, you know, like a number 95 when I started doing started doing consulting work where I'm kind of this cell, you know, my skills on the open market. Um, and I would work, like, 100 hour week, and, um and then I would go and take the money from that, and I would go to art for arrest the month and so I flipped back and forth from doing that for basically two years. Um and

that was you would work for a week? Yeah. 100 hours and now would support the ref for weeks.

All Yeah, we're through. Oh, yeah. So I was doing, um, sort of doing, like, design and prototyping work. And in San Francisco, that's just valuable enough. Thankfully, And, you know, I had enough skills in this area that I could command enough of a wage to basically pay for a month of living with a week of work. Now, you can't do that every week.

People like, Okay, why not just do that for 52 weeks a year? Well, in 100 hours, exactly. Yeah, And there's 100 like time track towers like this is, you know, 8 a.m. two a. M. Every night for seven days straight, right? Minimal. Like you need to manage your nutrition and you manage like your caffeine intake. Everything needs to be really tuned in so that you don't and even you need to manage.

What work you work on when? Because as you get more tired like you do the smart work up front because of the end, you're just like a dumb machine. Like cranking out the last details. So when you couldn't possibly I

orient my days, it's ah is just front loaded with the actual complex

work. Yeah, the thinking bit. Right? And then I could just, like, push around painting the other day. Yeah, um, so that was part of it. It's also that, you know, you can't necessarily get enough clients to fill in your time doing that, So there's a whole part about that. Um, Plus, I don't want to like the work.

I was always This was really the first time. Maybe not the first time, but one of the very few times that I was building helping people build their dreams. I wasn't building something that was like my vision. I was just simply a mercenary. I'm not here. Like, I might know that what you're working on isn't gonna work. I'm not gonna tell you like you don't hear from me, right? I'm just here to help you do what you want to D'oh! Um, in the best way I possibly can, and then I'm gonna take your money. I'm gonna go paint, right?

And so that that was how I basically was able to try toe. Just get more time to paint right now. Just kind of get the project's going and so at took about two years of that before I finally started to sell enough paintings to support myself. And even then I didn't really until the end of the following year, I just the last client I have been out of business, and I've been working that a big push towards the end, trying to kind of do a last Hail Mary. And so they kind of wanted more and more time for me. So I worked out a couple weeks in a row, and we just completely wrecked and around like New Year's, too. So I was like, I'm just gonna what year resist? This would have been the end of 2016.

So 2017 is when you did it

started. Yeah, basically, January 1st effectively. So did this huge push with them through December, right, right up until I left for the holidays and I was complete, exhausted, and then I banged a lot more money than it normally would have because I didn't think I was gonna go into art for a while.

That's interesting. It's That's actually surprising because that's only been about two years, but a little over two years. But I think, um, from a brand perspective, I just feel like you've been around for a lot longer, and that is the benefit of doing it on the side of putting it out there of two years, 75% of your weeks being being spent. Do it, been doing it. But it's it is shows the the immense value of doing it on the side, even if it's

not yet time. Thank you. And this There's a great there's Ah Arnold Schwarzenegger interview with Tim Ferriss, where he talks about how he was a multi millionaire from commercial real estate before he ever started acting. And this gave him tremendous power because he could only would only take the roles that he wanted they thought would advance his career. And I had heard that before, I think for one full time and when I mean there were so many adventures you get to not depending on the art for your financial support. And so one of them was when someone tries to negotiate me down on a project, I think I just I know like I don't need to sell you this painting, right? I don't I don't not eat I don't not, you know, feed my hypothetical Children because I'm still paying. And so I could be a much better negotiator around these, Um, And then also, I don't have to take stupid projects,

like one of the things that happens. I mean, there's many ways to fund your art. So one thing that people do is they do a commercial, um, art. And so what? I mean, when I say that is, um, you have a vision for, you know, an elephant on your wall. You hire someone to paint you with the elephant exactly like you envision it. It's not their art. Their you're using them for their technical skills to achieve this.

Right? Um, you know, they're able to use this break in or use a brush, But you determine what the art is, right? And so there's many products like that. A lot of murals for start ups and cos whatever their design firm designs, it need to hire a technician toe paint it, um right. And so I never wanted to do that because I felt that, well, one that wasn't just the best way to sell my time, um, to make the money but to I felt that it was sort of in conflict with my art, that I'm now doing your art for years like No. So I've always had a flat no, to any project like that. And so that was also tremendously powerful.

That Z that shows the power. Oh, it seems Thio try the power being really competent. Something else, Um and then doing this on the side Not many people can do that. But being really company in that design work that you're doing for four companies than allow you to be to have this straight minutes And I guess that's why it goes back to that are all sorts *** interview of being that good at real estate. Um allowed him to be in a really

strong yet and that that's actually luck. Like I've been doing that kind of work for eight years and just got good enough at it to find a little niche in the market. But a lot of people have side hustles, right? Just this idea that you you know that you do something to produce your income, be something else that you think is promising that doesn't produce all your income right to take the full leap of going from working a normal 9 to 5 job making income. To support yourself to trying to become a fine artist, starting at zero and try to grow from there while you're spending through your savings is almost a nonstarter. Like I don't think it works as Proposition. Um, probably as I mentioned earlier in this discussion like that, that the you know that you need you need to demonstrate to people that you're committed to this as you know, um, as a lifestyle, you know, as, ah,

as a profession, right? And you won't demonstrate that through persistence, and so that makes it extremely hard to make the leap. And then boom, it works. And I think there are very few. They're very, very few cases of I mean, there are some where it's like, there's the student show and, you know, um, Charles Saatchi comes in and he sees the artist like you're a genius. And then Charles Saatchi starts promote their art, and then the values get super inflated and then,

boom, they're after the races, right? I mean, it can happen, but it's sort of like the exception that makes the rule in this case where it's, you know, I certainly wouldn't bank on being, you know, once in a generation,

twice and generation. What is what is a typical artist for a successful for something that is really great of their craft? What is a typical journey in terms of logistics and time?

You had the traditional path. Um, not the one that I took is you go to art school again, One of the very small the roads, schools, you know, it's whatever c, c a or Yale or something. And then you graduate and then you get into have a beginner gallery and you do your one. You do some group shows with them, the paintings there to sell well. And

how much do you think you're making in that first year? 15

1000 less, even 5000. 8000. 10,000. 15,000. Whatever. Um and then you and then now you are having a solo show does well, So now maybe there's a second gallery Know that picked you up another city and kind of like, walk your way through a period of years until now You have ah, collector base that you found through through your good quality galleries and sort of move from beginning galleries, intermediate galleries, two more high level galleries

and Hominy. How many years before kind of the community. It seems kind of like it's also just the community, so the market isn't that big, but also the art community in each city seems pretty finite. Yes, and so to break in to that, it's like you, eh? NBA players. There's only so many n b A players. So many teams. Um, it is not this growing thing where it's 300 players

of this year. Exactly 805. Yes. So I've heard that the number that there are 400 people in the world that buy paintings for over a $1,000,000. And so if you're Jeff Koons or Damien Hirst or so just read by finance works. So sculptures included, Um, if you're Damien Hirst or Jeff Koons or City Sherman or Jasper Johns, whatever that's your audience is for two people, and if they decide that you're not cool today, then you're you're out right? And so what's interesting about the career that I've built is that it's built on a lot. You know, my like my median priced painting I was driving earlier conversation. I'm doing these commission working people. He's got this whole long process. That's just,

you know, I do make paintings like that, but the majority of my income doesn't come from that. It comes from selling pieces on the website for $200.400 dollars, $500 right and that they're being sold to a much wider audience like hundreds. Like I have more people bought my work last year, then exist that buy paintings for my dollars or more, right? And so it's sort of this. I believe that we can have a mass market of art where your average person can can have a relationship with it, and part of that is by bringing kind of the cost of doing it down and part of it sort of acquiring fine art down. But part of it is this increasing the access, which is where the murals and sweetheart come in,

right. Can I ask how many people bought Ah piece of yours

last year? Um, so I know never a painting sold was something like

630 that's and that's ah, six years in. Yeah, and and that's extremely successful within, within any our sign it when they're not. We know gently through my wife. Cheney is an artist as well, and so that's that's really hard to get. Thio, Um, especially six years in what would be the typical journey for someone to get to that, uh, that just that for someone successfully, You said five years is

really Yeah. So I was describing sort of the way that I understand attritional world to work. If I were to give advice to an artist, I mean, there's kind of 22 parts to it. One, um, you have the art, right? And so I mentioned earlier conversation that sometimes he will paint things that don't resonate with the market. They don't have that image market fit. And so sometimes, you know, um, I think that there's this, you know, if you have to ask where that you have it,

you don't keep going, you know? So try painting Jason things. Try painting, you know, totally new things, and, um, or maybe go deeper and the thing that you're doing and see if that resonates with people, what

would be a good way to test it out if it's not

straight, are so so, yeah, so feedback. So like that's a second challenge, right? Is like both the work. And then you need some channel to reach people, right? And so you can reach people purely on social media, you know, to drive interest in your account, Um, which is its own set of challenges. Um, you can do it through murals into street art, and you can do it,

you know, through nontraditional vehicles like you could go to a bunch of coffee shops or, you know, again it's hard to a bunch of art galleries because they don't want to work with you. But just finding. So there's an artist I'm familiar with. I don't know him personally named Joel Daniel Phillips, and he also shows he shows with Spoke are right about that Bill Murray painting and I believe can Harmon, the um, the owner of the gallery, was walking down Market Street, and Joel had his drawings. He does these incredible pencil drawings at the time of homeless people, he had the kind of up in the windows of like an abandoned building. And so that's how you know can found him and was like, hey onto a show with you and that they were hilariously inexpensive.

Um, you know, I saw them. It was too late. They're like life size, and there's, like, $500 incredible photo, realistic life size pencil thing like I can't fit this anyway. My house. But I wanted because it just incredible. But they sold out like insulin. So then, you know that start his career and then, you know, but the work resonated with a person,

and he got he's put it in them and the windows of an abandoned building. Right, So that that's kind of crazy, But he's not a street artist like he doesn't D'oh! Um, you know, Miralles or anything, cause all pencil. So he just found some way to get the work to people. And so, you know, that's kind of no matter, like, one of things I think that artists discount is, um I don't have a meeting people. Right?

Go out to a party. Say hi to people. People ask you what you do, you know, say I'm an artist And what kind of work do you do? Let me show you my instagram And then opportunities come out of that right? You're just getting your work in front of people. And if it works, not gonna resonate, then they're not gonna offer

you any opportunities. Why do artists discount

that? Um Because I think there's this traditional vision that the artist, it's only product, right that you just sit there and you paint and then dot dot, dot magic success. Right. And that's just not the way I mean that certainly not my experience, right? The traditional vision is that okay? The gallerist, they earned their half because you just paint and they do all the sales and all the marketing and all the PR, you know, and and that's just that's a great gig, if you can get it. But, you know, no one's gonna offer that to you.

And my experience was that by the time that certain galleries would offer that to me, I was already doing bigger shows, and they were doing it was like, Well, I'm the one bringing the audience to the show. Why make it like I'm doing the sales of marketing under the marketing, right? Like, why are you so you don't Actually you're not actually earning your 50% here, right? Right, Because they're all well and good if I, you know. I mean, I could pretty much more paintings, but did nothing but paint. Um, but that's, you know, I don't

know for better, it's a blessing. Ah, and occurs toe. Have to figure it out yourself. Yeah, yeah,

but it's again. Nobody is coming like no one's coming to give you the magic, you know, like it be great if Gagosian just walks in and is like, Finch is the next you know Warhol and then, boom, You know, he puts me in his six conversion galleries worldwide, and then my prices sky rocket, rocket and I'm off to the races like That's great, but like 10 claws doesn't

exist. The How much of your time would you say you split between the distribution side in the creation side because it's Max Roast or another guest on the podcast was saying that, um, I think it was something like 80% of research studies that are hand selected and chosen by the World Bank to be featured. 80% do not get red. Yes, and and five or seven years of people's lives go into a research study that then doesn't even get downloaded once. Yeah, terrible. Right. And And he was saying that it's this is this huge, um, issue that the academic world is running into where they can create, but they have no idea how to distribute. We kind of laughed that you have the opposite on YouTube were distributed. Yeah, they're there.

They know distribution there, obsessing over distribution on their content, being distributed rather than necessarily that quality of the of the content. But yeah, how much of your time would you break down between distribution

creation? So, um, that's a good question. I don't know the exact answer. I would probably guess that less I had to guess. I'd say 10% of my time goes into the actual hard core creative work of designing new stencils. So for me, the actual painting of the painting is very mechanical. It's not. It's already done artistically, at that point, writes all measured, and it's all because central need to be sized correctly. So, you know, I might spend a lot of time filling sensitive with spray paint. Um, certainly more than 10% of my time goes into filling senseless briefing of the actual creation of the designs is,

I guess, 10% really. So about 10% of the, uh, the creative side 90% of getting it out

there. Yeah, yes. Oh, well, again, there's probably another let's say, 20% of my time or Thursday. My time is spent just like actually painting. So for me, for me, the art and the production are not happening the same moment. So for most artists, almost all artists like have the paintbrush and they're coming up with the painting as they're painting it. But a lot of artists sorry, some artists aren't that way right where No Jeff Koons is a good example when he designs the balloon dog. You know,

um, that the fabrication of the actual dog is happening in a foundry with the technician that's being polished. It's people not being painted, and he's not touching any of that right. It's already done. It has to turn out like his auto cad model shows and his vision in his head about the level of shyness or whatever, right? And so

which is it below the line version for most people listening to this that artists will produce works that that is digitally rendered. And then it is a team of 12 people, actually. Yet this

Emily there's a large like the number of people that fail to appreciate the innovations of Duchamp is a lot. So people think that Oh, Damien Hirst isn't paint his paintings, which he doesn't know. A spot painting, um, isn't painted by Damien Hirst is a staff people who paint them. Therefore, there somehow not really. We're not good or something, but the reality of it is that, you know, the architect doesn't build the building right, and there's a plenty of things, but you'll come to very large sculptures. There's just no way that we know one person could go make a 50 foot sculpture all by themselves with their hands. And so it's It's the misunderstanding,

the idea that there is a technical skill of production, and then there's the creative bit of determining what it should be. And when Jeff Koons talks about this, he talks about you know, all these painters. You see a painting in my studio like my fingers right? They're part of like if you use a hammer like to hammer in a nail. It is somehow less authentically driven in because you didn't hit it with your bare

fist, said II. By will I get part of that? But I also understand that this is the, um well, this is the type of stuff that that I think most people don't don't see. The below the line version is, um, it almost feels like it is three parts. There's the creative part, there's a production yard. And then there's the distribution. And how much energy goes into the production and distribution is way more than what then people think. I think, yeah, I know for myself is, ah,

as a layperson, appreciating art I and there's there is some theatrics there where I will see a massive sculpture. And I will, I think, in a certain way, appreciate that. Whoa, This this guy or a girl on this little placard did this? Yeah, exactly. Shit. That it must have been so much because I am ignorant to the fact that maybe they had people their vision, right? It is their

vision. But I think there is something. I mean, did the ad jobs make the iPhone?

No, but I don't think people appreciate it as much as they appreciate. And that's Ah, you, Steve Jobs actually shouldn't get as much credit as as the world gives him, because he letters, like, did put my music album on this device or on a single device. And, um, and help Theo carrot or edit it down like a like a newspaper editor. But I think it is, um the the equivalent would be in my head, and I am the, um the idiot layman here is would be someone writes a magazine article. They put their name on it, but it was really team of five people that wrote it and did the research and put it together.

But only one name goes on there. Yes, he might have been telling him what to research what I've been saying. This is a shape of the article or the book of fiction book that wants to take place. But it does. I think there is some theatrics since why I call it theatrics to where it is, like all right, Yes. These people are behind the scenes, but I want to keep them as much behind the scenes as possible because the scene I want to portray is, uh, and came from my hand head through my hands to your wall. Yeah, And that that's powerful, That is That's really inspiring to see a a sculpture that you're like, How did this person?

Yeah, make this. I want a spot. Yeah, I need to get my shit together.

Best you would say that the tour ship of the art of the of the the artifact is in solely in one person, right? It's It's that, um that if you were to substitute any of the other people, that helped for another person, that could be done. But he substituted that. Sorry, it would turn on the exact same. But if you substituted this one person, it would turn out differently. Um, sometimes I think about my work and it and it's very much by production, right? Like again, the architect can't build the building. Um,

but they could maybe build their own models, right? And so, um, it's having interesting and and for me, what I also think about is, maybe it's what you're getting at is that I think my work sometimes as a magic trick where I don't really want to show you how old these stencils fit together. Um, no, because when I want you to see is holy crap. There's no honey bear. Um, that's the Run DMC bear on the mailbox. He's got a gold chain around his neck and he's got a black fedora. Um, and like,

how did that even show up there? Like we know, like it turns out it's, you know, walking laughs from 2 to 5 in the morning and managing multiple layers and using lying totes for spray paint and holding on the rattle ball with a magnet. So all these things go into making this thing, and maybe it would cheapen a little bit if you saw all the steps along the way. What you see is something haven't seen before, and you've seen it because there's all these steps behind that go to create the magic trip trick that are hidden from you. And then you just get the artifact, the object, the end. You're like holy smokes like this. This this is really cool. And, um,

there's a really big gap between what, um, you know, zero. And what you saw was big sculpture like, How did you even

get here right in the through line. Is that person driving it? Yeah, to completion to it

being there. Yeah. I mean, there's an artistic vision and you're just using technical skills along the way or production and, like my work happens to be more production oriented because there's a much more unclear duplication. And I work between the creative bit and the production bit because the stencils air designed in this very time consuming of meticulous fashion, where to fear everything fits together precisely what all the colors are. And then it's just fill it with great pain. And that's not trivial. People like, Oh, it's so easy to use stencils. Okay, well, I mean, do you have trips and over spray and rip up paint and misalignments? And there's all sorts of things that go wrong in the painting of it. Have to manage your caps and so they don't splatter and everything. So definitely skill there. And so it's not like anyone to be substituted

for it. Well, yeah, no. And two to your point. I think their skill throughout all three. I thinkit's actually, um, of the creation production distribution. If those if those buckets apply or makes sense. There's absolute intention throughout the three, but I think to what you're saying, the what we visualize is just that create is just creating a few like the person in the studio. Yep. Creating and not fully appreciating how much goes into you could. I don't want to trivialize it, but you could say the other two are the,

um the amplification of the creation. Yeah, and or the business side. But really, just the amplification, I think is a

better but it all like it all works together. And, um, you know, this quote, It's like I don't, um, sell art to make money. I make money so I don't make art to make money. I make money to make art. Right? And so one of the things that I found her interesting as I've had more commercial success with my work that I could go fund like I can GreenLight projects that people can't green light. And so, to be an example, the first big mural I painted the really big girls, like 50 feet wide, 30 feet tall.

Um, it was, um, the sort of out of guilt. The landlord chipped in 2800 bucks, but it cost me $1000 Not including my time. Right. And so was like, Okay, well, I had to be able to lose that money on that project in order to get this done because I had this artistic vision. And then right now, um, by the time this comes out, hopefully we'll have launched a Kickstarter for a birdie man sculpture in building this year. Um,

that's gonna cost about $30,000 I'm gonna build the sculpture, no matter what. Um, I would prefer to not spend that money right. There is a meaningful amount of money to me. But, um, you know, if I only get half of that, then I'll just out of pocket the other half. Whatever. Right? And so, you know, two years ago, there was no chance

I could build a sculpture like this. And is that scene in your, uh, in your mind as partial a partial investment into amplify the message of all of your work, too? Yeah. So D put foot. Uh,

yeah. So there's a, um Yeah. These things end up being intertwined in a way that sort of, um maybe disappointing. So when I first had a sculpture for burning man. I was like, Okay, cool. My intention was to gift to the community and participate. I was like, Okay, I tried my first year when I went to give things, I brought things that nobody needed. Um, whisky, Uh,

and just plenty whiskey there so that I needed And then second, I tried it a little better. You know, beef jerky is a good thing to give people. Um, but I didn't feel like I was I was I felt like I was net receiving in that community. So cool. I'm gonna use my unique skills. Um, I'm gonna build my first ever sculpture and put it out there. And so I did that. It is seven foot tall, free sending, honey bear. I feel very small sex. So I came back with a 14 foot presenting honey bear.

Definite, very small. Next came out with a 28 foot for sending honey mayor and the what I found and the gold. I don't sign these pieces. You know, maybe on their website you could find out who it was who made it. But this was just the thing to do for the community. And when I found was that I would come home if you like. Oh, I saw you have a burning man and it makes me want to buy something like, Oh, it's actually sort of like not even the ethos of burning man. It's sort of like I'm now, um, kind of inadvertently getting commercial benefit from participating in that community. And I think it was true for any of the artists out there.

Like when you do an art piece, you're doing it to most people's lives. It also happens. It basically it just so happened that I didn't realize this. It just so happens that street art murals are marketing right? And so they serve this dual purpose of both being the object of that you're intending to create, to have this, you know, changing the world to enrich people's lives, to expose them to artwork, to brighten their day. That's the goal. But it just also happens that also the way that you are out to people. And so this was unintended for me, but ultimately ends up being sort of one of the crucial parts of life

practice. Well, I think it's that is that is certainly, um, that feels very accurate, but I would also add a depth to it that you're also when you are creating that street art or the artist that was hanging there. Paintings in the in the er empty building. You're doing something that others aren't willing to. D'oh! Yeah, to get your your work

out there. I mean, it takes, and that's no doubt this takes work, right? Um, you know, I

let you taste it. I think it takes risk as well, that is. And this is you know, whenever you look under the surface of of the best start ups, they all have these stories of, like, holy shit. They were willing to do that to get to get this going. I mean, it's it is, um, it's, you know, it's actually really illegal stuff, but it is like depths of whether it's Airbnb. And selling $40,000 worth of cereal boxes isn't just to support them for the next six months,

maxing out all of their credit cards. A total of 24 credit cards in taking on Don't do that at home, right? You shouldn't, but it's taking on, you know, $200,000 of debt. That is, it's, um yes, it is a logistical benefit that it's out there in the public, but I think it is a, um I think it is a deeper, um, a deeper philosophical point of of the creation that you're willing to go through uncomfortable things. Or maybe for you. Maybe you loved the risk of

getting caught. No, I Yeah, that's, um Ah, yeah, popular misconception. Right is like a lot of people go out in the street Art for the rush of it. Like I like to sleep. I you know, I'm a creature of some comfort, right? And so that's partly why I do a lot of murals now, like just do them in the daytime. I don't risk being arrested like that was never that fun

for me. It wasn't so. Have you had any brushes with with the law?

So the closest So I've never been arrested and I've never been detained. But the closest I came probably was I was painting on a mailbox on 22nd and Valencia, which is a fairly major street in the mission and was playing on the backs out of the box away from blends. Yes, you couldn't see me there. And what's nice about this area is that there's a very large block between that in the next street, which was Guerrero. And so I could look when the light turned red or green. I could look always on the block, and I could recognize that the headlights coming. You look hot. Car or not, and so you can see. Okay. No, they're not, because they're very particular round shaped of them.

You just learn to recognize. And then so I could go and turn in paint, paint, paint. But in this particular case, there was like, an alley that comes pretty close to me, Like 1/3 of the way up the block closer to me. It was very almost no traffic at all. On what time? On two. In the morning,

Right. Well, people, like call you in like, well, people You think people would report

no. Most like to be caught in the act. So what turns the corner at that moment? But a police car, so it turns on 22nd and they're painting on the box, right? Um, on gloves. Right. And the stencils taped to the box and almost filling, but I saw them. And so I got this advice from a street artist named Eddie Kalla. I asked if he'd ever been arrested, and he's like, arrested, No, detained all the time.

And he said that your chances of being arrested or directly proportional to how much of an asshole you are, So if you run, they're gonna chase you down, and then they'd be up a little bit and then they're gonna put you in jail, at least for the night, Whatever. But if you're reasonable and you talking about I'm an artist, that's what I'm doing. I don't want to get the paperwork. They don't wantto know they want to find real criminals, right? And there's fish in that area of the mission. There's real crime that goes on. So he also said what he does is he thinks I might not have seen him. He walks directly at them basically because a criminal walks away from you. So you just kind of flipped.

That ends in this case, I put my hands behind me so I could strip the gloves off. They couldn't see the gloves, and I want kind of up just casually has dropped. Everything kind of casually strolled up the street kind of in their direction and passed them. And they just drove on so many possibilities. Maybe they were talking to each other and they never saw me at all. Maybe they did see me. Um, but what? I didn't trigger a kind of crime pattern matching pattern. Maybe they saw me and they decided that they didn't wanna hassle right now with somebody who's painting on something, and it's hard for me to tell how close I was. But it was very scary in the moment because they were. I mean, they shine the lights directly on me.

I was right there, right in the middle of doing it at a couple, maybe two other cases that were sort of like that. And, um, something else I would do because it seemed like a little bit of a risky such a scenario. I would pull out my phone and just, like, flip on the screen. So I was shining. You know, I look like another dude waiting for Newberg, right? And so it is trying to act because I remember the first time I painted with another another street artist. She was also relatively new to the game. And I came out with what I always wear,

which was just jeans. And, like an old, you know, Banana Republic quarters It jacket,

right, Look, nut to try to look no,

totally normal. And she came out with the black pants in the black hoody and the black shoes. All right? I'm like, you look like a criminal, right? Like I look like a dork, right? And like that was totally on purpose, right? It's like you're trying to somehow be safe by dressing like a criminal. So it's a sort of this acting like being very calm. You know, something I definitely learned from the mailbox period was when I was painting Annoy Valley. If I paint in Ocean Beach, um, if a paint Alamo Square,

most likely a cop will not pass me all night. When I'm painting in, the mission will pass you for shore. And so you have to learn to be cool. Like during it caught by panicking. And so the reason I got out of peeing on the mailboxes was I took a little bit of a break for a while. maybe went home for the holidays and I came back and I was just like, amateur hour. I was like fumbling with the cans. Magnets were getting stuck to each other and I was like, I'm just here to long like it's one thing that they like you can do to 90 seconds. You can't do it all. And so I'll be there. I'm like, I just

you know, how so your your ah sense ALS or your actual, like the honey bear thing you're known for getting

done in 90 seconds, Each of the layers. Okay, it's been done. So you're only on box for 90 seconds. And the actual crimes only being being committed over to be ableto you know, 20 seconds at a time. And then So maybe it's about, you know, a minute. Men and 1/2 total.

How many layers for five for the classic bear? So you'll do the 90 seconds and walk away? Yep. Then come back. Do another. How long? How

long? Later. Um, maybe the thick 30 minutes. So I go to five boxes at a time. Yeah, So I go hits five boxes and then back to the

1st 3 listeners. Yeah. These airlock massive. These air. Pretty big boxes. Yeah, the mailbox is like we said, but

but the larger Yeah, there may be about 30% larger by volume are feeling a lot of volume. You typical

What? What are some of the other uncomfortable? And this is the broadest sense. What is being uncomfortable? Most uncomfortable moments for us as an artist.

So there's a lot of things that I'm comfortable being artists. So one is that you're putting your work out there for people to judge, and I, thankfully, cultivated a sense of distance between me and the work. Um, probably been had that before I even got into doing the painting Where a judgment on the works on a judgment on me and my soul. I just did. You know, I'm just making things

because that help, because it's

criticism of the, um no, I think this is I think it is true. Yeah, maybe it helps a little bit, but I think any creator needs to cultivate this distance, right? That just because the work is bad doesn't mean you are bad, right? Um, maybe using your bad it making good work. Um, but again. You're you know, you're not gonna. Everyone doesn't have hits all the time.

I have to imagine it. It does help tohave a pseudonym in a separate identity, and you almost get to choose whether people get to know if it's a reflection of you or not.

Yeah, The only pushback I have here is that my closest friends, the people whose opinions I care about the most all know. So it's not, You know, if I do something, I'm more concerned about what people actually interact with their today. Maybe think about the work than some, like ethereal or conceptual person in public. Plus, if they don't like it or they like it, they tell me of

your social media. Yeah, so, you know, I still

see it, right? You can see that, but yet again. So to say, I don't disagree. That gives you some buffer. But, um, you know, you're still you're still feeling like like the work is being judged. And if you identify yourself with work, even without that barrier, right, it's still you could so feel like the judgment upon you. And I think that's not healthy. And you realize that you're gonna have hits,

and then you're gonna have flops. And it's more about the volume of work trying to do good work over and over and over again. You know? I mean, I don't try to have flaps. Obviously, I tryto have only hits, but I don't have only hits. And I'm just going to accept the fact that, you know, I did. You got me Corgi. And at the time it was I thought, the best assignment ever done. You probably don't know what it looks like.

I think I do, actually. But nobody

liked it. No one ever known ever commissioned one. No one's ever asked about it again. It was just a thing I did that I thought was the best design I've ever done. And it was crickets like no one. I didn't get the lights on the post. I didn't know nothing came out of it. But then the California Poppy I didn't think was gonna be a hit. I was like, Okay, well, it's only four layers, which is on the low side for me. So it's not have some of the you know, um, complexity, years technical.

Yeah, like about using all of my technical skills took get all the pieces the lineup represent this object. And as soon as I posted it on instagram, it was just like a big hit. And I got tunnel likes and I've done multiple murals of it, so it's just very intricacy and I don't know, in advance, I mean, I was excited about both. I mean, I did the poppy the best I could. You know, this case is a commission for, ah, house on the exterior. And so that's what they wanted as an image.

And so I give him a best shot. But the best shot I came up with I didn't think was good as you got me Corgi. Um, but whatever you know, and again, it doesn't. It doesn't. Um, like, I don't feel somehow diminished by the fact that one of my designs didn't go so well. Often, I'm surprised. So, yeah, I think that's uncomfortable. Something else?

It's a couple for artists. Is that you know, you negotiate against people a lot, Um, right or with people? Maybe is the right way to put it right. So, you know, I, um I have an arts lawyer. Um, taking Janssen shout out started legal and Jacob helps me like somebody sense to me. Ah, contract. I don't speak legalese. They oftentimes ask for completely outrageous things right where I had one recently, where was literally like they would have the right to produce honey bear paintings and sell them claiming to be me

right? And that sleight of hand, or is that like, uh, was that somewhat standard in their

line of work? I I'm an optimist, and I'm inclined to believe the best in people. And so I believe that their contract was based off of a design contract. Like, if I'm hiring you to make a little go for me right then you sign away all rights, that logo forever. You couldn't possibly something without that, but as a fine artist, the optic you create is related to all the other objects that you created some intricate, inextricable way. Um and so it's a complete nonstarter, right? And it's like you if that's not their intention to do it like I can't sign a contract like that. And so it's really uncomfortable to push back against a company. You know who's writing you? A check for a big painting and be like,

You know, I'm willing to walk away from this. I will not paint this painting because of this. And then ending totally fine. Jacob just rewrote that part of you mostly removed an entire part of the contract rewarded to give them the rights that they needed, that you'd be able to photograph the piece of promoted in the social media, et cetera, et cetera, which I'm totally fine. That helps me. So you know, they need to get certain rights. Um, but so that when it's really weird, you're in the position of feeling okay. And then also comfortable.

Is anything around these kind of negotiations? Comfortable Someone like? Okay, well, you know, I want this painting. I mean, sometimes you doing commission work, people. Some small number of people create a lot of, um, most of your pain right where they advert Lear inadvertently. Tragic advantage of you. Okay, cool. Well,

you know, I want this and then oh, can I get this other thing? Okay. The other thing I like. Well, now, like I'm painting this painting to fund me doing public art projects, so I have to be able to make enough money off this painting so I can spend you know, someone a time not making money, painting murals, right? And so now if I make no money of his painting or I lose But in this painting like it's a it's a it's a double loss, right? Because you know, I have to have a certain money I make. And so sometimes it's just like the frog. It's boiling like Okay, And this and I want

my wife will have, you know that knows that well. And, ah, you know Cheney really well as well. And And she Yeah, it's I wish there was a way. Maybe you've learned a way to spot those people early on, or if there's a

filter for I don't know how to spot it, but I just What happens is when somebody pees in the pool like that pool gets closed. And so now a concrete example is I don't care who you are, Uncle, How big the project You get one new design for commission, period, right? If you wanna a painting with 16 bears on it, I don't care on Lee. One is new. You have to use other existing designs for them. So that's something that I used to have that policy was. Just want to make whatever you want to make. Let's talk about your hopes and dreams. You have a point. We get a commission with, like,

six new designs. Each of those is taking you multiple days to make it just like I don't have time. Like I'm not pricing this with that in mind, right? I'm pricing it, you know, to be very affordable people, even for the mission painting. But my commissions are still very affordable compared to art gallery art. Um, and so it just sometimes like, Okay, fine has happened, this ruling. And, um,

another one I did recently or somebody Oh, yeah. Yeah. So, like not getting a deposit on a painting. You only need to get royally screwed on that one once before. It's just, you know, unless I've done multiple works for somebody before you're giving me a deposit

and they send you just event more. Uh, I For how much?

Half is what? So I asked to be as for half. But if they like oh, can even 1/4 like I'll go down to the border To me, it's not so much about the money. The dollars as it is about the commitment minutes signals to me because I've ended up in situations where you take the commission, you paint the painting. I'm like, Oh, I don't have the money to pay for it. I'm like, Well, I have a pain. Right, Um, and like this was made bespoke for you, right?

So it's just, um you know Yeah, I got, um, Yeah, I got burned on that once on a commission painting, and I got burned on that again recently for a mural that basically they had a great location. And my policy and public art is if it's a good project, like, I'll make it work with your budget. I don't like. Here's my quote years full price, right? But if that amount is a burden, like inflexible and they're like, we have no budget,

I'm like, cool, you know, community. It's a good location, you know, your mom and pop business, but happy to do it. And then most of the way through the project, you know, I've made a custom designed for them going this whole design process, they pull the plug and I was like, I don't have anything now, you know, And like, man.

And it was really heartbreaking. Like if they give me $100 they wouldn't have pulled the plug. Right? Um, you know, in this a mural that I would've was big so would have charged over $10,000. This neural and I'm like, I'm basically out and against the painting of it is just the last bit. It's only production. So, like the design of the mural and the whole figure of stencils on the wall and going out there and measuring it and doing tests and things like that, it's all been done eternity time, like 75% of the way through this project. And I'm just, like, unceremoniously and ungracious.

Lee dismissed. And I'm like, Okay, cool. Like you to pee in the pool. And so now I change the wording of the e mails to basically be like, you know, you get a little bit of skin in the game. And again if you can't, If you want a huge mural inside your building and you can't give me $500 worth $2 then you can't possibly value what I'm doing right? like you don't need to give me $20,000 something. Give me something to show me that you're actually serious about working with me Because I'm serious, like, unprofessional. And

it's one of those pools where the urine turns red. One of those mythical fools. I've never I've never been in one of those. I have heard of these pools and is scared me to never pee in the pool. Yes, I never know if I'm in one of those pools.

Don't don't pee in the pool. So that's what I do is create Maur and Maurin. More constraints, and especially now it's mostly around the creation of new designs and the way that the commission's work that you just you fail in some way that you never expected before. Um, you know, uh, yeah, I could keep giving examples, but, um, but it won't. But if something goes wrong, and so you kind of just change your wording a little bit to add another constraint, that's right. And now I feel like I need to have a web page that I sent you, just like here's the fine print,

right? You know, about the ways that we generate designs. We work together, and the number of things that can come out and whatever and like my threat, basically is like, Look, you've given me this 50% deposit If we can't come to terms after uncle, have to walk away and it's never happen to me because again, I'm inclined to

go, You know, when they're inclined to bend, imagines

once they've given what you have that leverage. But I've done things were like, Hey, you get three revisions. 18 revisions later, Like the painting gets finalizing like Okay, fine, you know, And it's like again, I want to make people happy with the art, right? I want to be, um, you know, some people happy in general, but it's sort of like coming up with your boundaries and feeling confident enough in yourself and comfortable enough in dealing with this, like something I've said for a long time came before. The art is that my goal is not to not make mistakes. It's not the same mistake twice, And so when you're coming into this world without the experience of dealing with it without necessarily people to help guide you, you just kind of stumble around and then you just get stronger and stronger

and stronger. It's It's a really powerful perspective. Thio. Do you mind saying that again? Your goal is not to

make its Yeah, for just two knots. So the goal is not to not make mistakes. It's not make the

same mistake twice. And so, in going into this profession and each year are you basically saying in my hearing, right, that you're basically saying I'm gonna I'm actually totally open to making a bunch of mistakes. Yes, totally fine with bumping into this wall

because as I'm expanding, I'm trying to thinks right, and I've had some. I mean, this is Ah, another nice below the line moment. So when I make commission paintings, typically I'm having one out of every set of commissions fail right where I went and tried something. So I'll give you two concrete examples. One of them was a commission to do a painting, and someone's like a physical painting at four by eight foot panel hung on to their neighbors house in their backyard like a fresh from the neighbor to mount under their wall. And so I did something gonna be durable and last exterior So I went with corrugated plastic, um, which is very cheap, and you can get it at your local hardware store for a bigger harvest, or like a Lowe's or Home Depot, in this case,

is one called discount builders had to go to. And so I primed it with a paint that the paint shop swore up and down is a plastic primer. And then I painted it and the way that I painted as I put down this template that I anything that's not being painted with art is being covered with paperwork tape. And so I delivered the painting on site with all this tape and paper Salon IX. It helps protect, detected Let me get on site and I peel it and that tape rips the paint right off, right? And so the thing is just like, shredded and peeling, and I'm like, Okay, and they understood that it was very clear with them, like I've never done this before. I'm willing to try this, but you know there's an experiment.

So and you said each new initiative comes with one big mistake.

When I do a set of commissions, maybe going eight. You know, my failure rate is currently about one in eight. And so in this in that particular studio session, that was one that failed. And, um, you know, I Then, um so in that particular case, I've been clear with, um, the paintings didn't work out. So in the next city recession, they just get another painting. I'm committed to making it right.

I don't give two times or three times or four times, you know, probably I'm not gonna, you know, quote unquote make money on this painting. You have to do the whole thing twice and a whole set of research both times. But that's just part of getting better as an artist. And I refer to art sometimes as aesthetic research. So what, you know, from an image standpoint for Cheney, what would it look like to take her style and paint a lion? She might not know the answer until she does it right. She has some vision that it could be cool. So for me, it's like,

you know what it looks like for me to paint a can of Lacroix. What would it look like? Me to paint a tulip. But then sometimes it's it's in every kind of research where it's like, what kind materials do I use? Something a lot of experimentation with metal substrates. Plastics ended up being kind of a bus. I did a couple experience with plastics. I can try to go exterior and find them like actually, there's, you know, it's actually just metal stronger. Um, from the auto painting market, we have a much deeper history of painting onto metal. Um,

and so there's things about primers and codings and treatments. You know how you sand it, how you prepare it where you get it fabricated, right? Like, you know who can cut metal. And so it's not me, it's, you know, these are other examples. Obviously, I'm striving for business mistakes where, you know, I I didn't constrain some something with with a collector that put me in a tough position. But the other mistakes I'm making all the time around. Okay,

Cool. I'll try to find these things up, or I try to use the material, and it worked. So another one in the next video session. So I fixed. I got a good thing to paint that panel on. When the next one, I had another exterior project where I was doing these ladybugs climbing up the wall. And so I cut them out of acrylic and I painted them. They were gorgeous, and I mounted them with, um, Velcro interior Exterior, like the double sided is the equivalent of the 300 strip, but for exterior.

And they swore, you know, every inch holds a pound, so I put 10 inches of the strip on this, like £2 thing, right? So we're way overrated on this thing and kind of mount them up on their deck. And they look really cool on that very first night, one of them fell. It's plastics, of course. All it's the lady bucks All the legs and the antenna break off and take down the other two. Well, let's see how this spring it goes, you know, keeping the two up.

Then, like a week later, the next one fell and it hit the 3rd 1 on the way down. And so the Thurman stayed stuck to the wall, but it broke off and I was like, Okay, cool. Like I learned two things. One is that plastic is too brittle at the scale, and to this Velcro product does not, in fact, work for my needs. And so, you know, I'm now remaking those into aluminum so that all the antenna and legs are more durable. And then I'm gonna mount them.

They're gonna be mounted with screws into the wall. And so there are these, like, really cool offset mounts. And I found that kind of lack together, we could kind of angle them and then screw them in. And so you know about the research and there was no example. Just like it's a it's a failure research around the time. But now I know like now I have, like, I have another hammer, another tool, another wrench in my toolbox. I'm gonna go see an artistic problem of, you know, someone asked,

Hey, could you do this kind of thing for me? I'm, like, 100%. I could do that. And then now I can reach a little further. We're like, Okay, cool. I know how to do this domain and something is pushing me before would be too far out, you know, like, Oh, actually, now I can see what comes next thing and then you can reach, reach, reach, reach

What do you think is unique about you that makes you great at what you have found? Ah groovin doing

so, um, I think there's really there's probably two things that work together. So one of them is by luck. I've been for somebody my age. I've been doing digital illustration for longer than possibly any human my age. Like the fact that I got into it at 14. Um, in a pretty serious way, at least for me at the time. Is this completely random? And so I have this kind of bank technical skill that allows me to accomplish certain things. Um, as a digital straight people can't accomplish right, That's one part of it. And the other part of it is that when I got into art, it took me a couple years,

maybe two years to realize that art is a business and that sounds stupid, like, of course, it's a business. But the way I think about it is that you can look at art through different lenses. You can see a cultural lens to what I d'oh, you know, trying to bring our to the mass market right so that people feel like they're included in art. That's not this alienating thing that happens in white walled galleries with rude colorists and super expensive for the 40 20. You look at it politically like my work is not very political support. People are so okay. Banksy is certain this hotel in Palestine to induce, you know, British and American and other tourists actually go in and see what it's actually like in Palestine. That's a very political move, and they will get their business lines.

And, you know, I'd already I mentioned I started, um, companies based, like a toy company with my college roommate and so over time and go to business school. But I learned that the word sales meant something. And sales channels and unit economics and marketing and whatever. Um and so when I got Oh, actually, no. I have a mental model of what's going on here. Gallery isn't magic. They're just the sales. Gentle right? I'm like, and

there's other sales channels. They're not evil. They're just They have their own business needs, toe. Yep, they other soul and are pressed. And so if

you want to work with them, I connection what their business model is. My best model is and see if we can, you know, we can be mutually beneficial and sometimes in some cases can some case that we can't. And so being comfortable in that environment, we're like It didn't scare me, you know, because the company started with my college roommate. It was just the two of us. We never raised any money. We never We had an intern for a while, we had a couple of contractors, but for the most part it was literally just the two of us. And so I said, I used to say at the time, I don't have one job.

I have nine internships. You know, I do sales and marketing. I do Cork Dev do Biz Dev. I clean the toilets, I make the coffee right? And so I feel like I got a little bit of experience and I don't have all these word meant, you know, like understanding the word like there's certain words that have definitions. And there's some words that are these infinitely deep words. So the word marketing is this word that, like I had no idea the Met for a long time, and I'm not even sure now I could give you a great definition, but I have some sense of what that actually means. People say, Oh,

Steve, Jobs is great at product and marketing, right? Oh, I'm kind

of sea indefinitely. Deep words that yeah, can be thrown around as if they're three interested. But it's Yeah, yeah, it's their their own inventions.

Yeah, And this is a huge, amorphous thing, right? Like art. Another example. Like, what is art? Very hard to, actually. You know, I give you my definition earlier, which was you know, if you say that it is, it is which, which is the definition of that that I like, because it just kind of makes this easy,

but obviously going to be huge numbers of people that vehemently disagree with that definition. And so it's a whole It's very complicated, right? And so, getting some facility with these ideas, like Okay, I felt like I started during the art. I was in a fog and I didn't know well again. I didn't truly didn't think there was any money to be made here was definitely just a side pursuit. And when I made the flip, so I felt like I was in a fog and I didn't know How's it fit together. And the fact that my income comes primarily from hand painted multiples, painting 25 versions of the same painting and selling them in a lower price through a website that was that was not some like, ah ha moment that was in advance that emerged completely organically, as I was like Sure, I'll try out this trial fat like I'll do work with the gallery.

I'll do work for the coffee shop. I'll do so my own, you know. And then slowly but surely Oh, okay, here's here's where it is. And I was sort of prime to recognize that by being comfortable again with with the the with this lens and then sort of like Okay, cool. Now that I see it, I can go and actually pursue

it with intention and with your business background. Did that add a kind of a thematic point of view around what you were doing that had to do with I don't know, goals or kind of like, you know, graphing out your growth? Did that add something implicit to your process that so has helped you become successful?

I'm um, I'm not very goal oriented that there's a great quote from Scott Adams, he said. Ah, goals are for losers and his point is point. There is that, um, processors are better. So I don't

that maps that maps really closely. D'oh! It's a different articulation. But a few guests have mentioned the importance of disconnecting from results, using on the process and disconnecting from observed, um um as milestones, but certainly not destinations. And ah, yes, oh, that's a good way of putting

it. It's also completely unclear where my practice was going for me, and it's still unclear to me now, right? That you know, every year, um, it grows and opportunities and accomplish new things. But, you know, there's not like I don't have actually don't know what he what it looks like in five years. You know what looks like in a year? It looks now completely everything looked a year ago and so I was just concentrated on just being okay with that and just wait, I guess, actually, what I was saying for a long time to people, people be like,

What are you doing with this art stuff, right? Like you were you know, you have these other skills. You're over here making money and support yourself Like, why are you spending all your time painting and not making any money doing it? I'm like I feel like I have a feeling of a string and I'm excited to pull on the string and I don't know, the string goes, but I'm gonna keep pulling it. And so that's kind of still want to know what I'm doing. I'm just tryingto like pop my head up, Look around. See, opportunities are available. Pick the best one, Do it,

rinse, Repeat just over and over and over and over again. And I have this, like Khan Bond board of note cards in my office, where I have possible projects in progress products and done projects and try to keep the in progress at three would have been currently horribly failing at, But try to keep that limited. And so I'm like, cool in order to I'll start with you. But I'm really excited about this possible category. I need to actually finish something and, like, get it, get it out there in the world and then move on and I don't now, I try more to take a moment of celebration when I feel like a big mural like Okay, let's have, like,

a party or get together. I could hand out stickers and by people on my instagram, you know, whatever. Just to be like it actually did a cool thing. But I'm not here to dwell on it. And I certainly don't believe people asked. Sometimes, like, was there like, what was the tipping point? Like, what was the moment when it works? I'm like there hasn't been one yet, right? I keep thinking like Okay,

I'm do this project. It's gonna be amazing. And everyone gonna realize that I'm such a great artist. I'm gonna sell these paintings in Bubble. It's never happened like that. It's just been mean. The The growth of the sales of the art has been exponential, but there's never been. It has been smooth, just been okay. This month is a little bit better than last month, little bit in the last month or this quarters of better last quarter, the court before and it sort of just, you know, it's just about pick the best

project. Do it, move. There's one way of describing What the? The fact that you proceed that with, you know, it's never been like that almost disappointingly smooth is one way of putting it. I guess another way would be incremental. Just been younger and incremental climate. There's never bigger projects

were better projects. You know, I think I better at picking them better executing them and figure out new things. But how to paint bigger, better, faster, stronger then I can take on a project could take almost like the sculpture on to build this year for Burning Man would have been inconceivable last year and won last year would have been inconceivable the year before. Like the seven foot sculpture, the 1st 1 was at the absolute limit of my abilities.

I was gonna ask What is something you're trying to get better at right now that you're acutely aware that you need to get better at cultures are today? Yeah, there's any number business side of it yet Whatever. If you

remember things, So yeah, the, um, durable exterior work I've just talked about both from fine art perspective. This culture perspective is one of my goals. Um, you know, things that can sit outside and last outside. And so that's mostly technical learning materials.

Was that born through disappointment or pain of previous work?

Yes. Yeah, Um, I mean one. It was born for opportunities to do the exterior paintings, which I don't I don't know a lot of people who are doing this like people hanging paintings on their

fence in the backyard. And it's so cool where there's one about two blocks from here on someone's, um, the side of I think it's the site of their stares. Just a beautiful house with this external art. Yeah, on the

side of it. And that's that's yet not super common and something that I'm funny people interested in doing. Um, that's one. The experiment also the acute pain is that I built this 28 foot appreciating honey back from Burning Man last year, and it's made of MDF, which is basically sawdust and glue that happens to dissolve in water. And so you made the burning man kept on a place. It places people were like, What do you thinking? Like you said that you're not not even near what we can really do here. Like even any wooden sculpture you don't take a wooden sculptures at all. Is this on weather? Very well. And so I'm like, Well, I put you know,

we had 25 people painting on this thing, and it was like a massive labor of love. You know, I paid for the whole thing out of pocket. I mean, the people, it's all volunteer work for this burning man. Um, I really don't make any money doing it all materials and all the transportation, whatever it was all paid for out of pocket, let me and I get it back home thinking, Well, put somewhere else and it's, like, very difficult. Now I'm like,

you know, um, this year sculpture is gonna be designed to be placed somewhere else. It's gonna be designed to be built more easily. It's gonna be designed to the last, you know, in rain and wind, et cetera. So that's one part of it. Another thing that I'm I struggle with a lot I don't have an answer to is that when I started doing art, I would say yes to any opportunity that came my way. Like I would paint free murals inside of, you know, I didn't want it like a weird co working space for people and showed up in painted and left. You know, who knows?

Whatever in people's. Um, yeah, I don't want it cold living space in their courtyard and sugar trumpeting. Who knows that any benefit of doing this? I'm just came my way. Sure, um, paints people's houses. Ah, you know, chance to paint a construction site. It's like I don't care what it is I'm in, and at some point you start to get too many opportunities and to make that flip from saying yes to everything toe almost everything to sing, node almost everything and have a double problem now where it's not only do I need to be better at figuring out what I want to say yes to to do, but a lot of projects that are my projects,

things that that aren't coming inbound, like no one's gonna reach out to me to do some amazing things that I can think of myself. But I'm always gonna prioritize the project that I'm you know, that there's another person I made a promise to if I promised you to paint this painting, you know, on the outside your house, I'm gonna paint that, and I'm to do it preferentially over something that I promised myself, right? And so trying to create the space to try to just come up. It's not just be reactive to be more proactive about what I want to do, because I have vision for certain projects. Um, just give one example. So at the end of two years ago, Missy freaked out December I'm like,

no several projects. For the 1st 3 months of 2018 it came out of this, but I've been sitting on for a while, which was assigned Bombing Project where I went and I, um, printed and I cut 400 honey bears onto eight. You know, basically like 11 inches tall onto ah, polyester paper. So what, every paper? And is it time the team of 20 people all over down pound? Because I discovered in San Francisco Public Works Code Article 5.1. Section one of the four that you can have legal sign ege on light utility poles, provided that the six rules are here, too.

I'm like, this is an incredible opportunity I see here that could take a little tiny gap in public works code and shove Ah, huge amount of art through that gap and going to a new form of artwork. That's a legal street art and other artists can follow this model and, you know, some innovating in kind of the distribution of art where anyone can go and do it. And it's totally legal. You put up with zip ties, and so again, no one was asking me to this project. But I just I got organized and I went and did it. Um, course you know, no other artist has copied me yet. Um, if you're out there,

you're an artist. Copy. Like please copy me on that one. Ah finch dot com slash sign give you more details on it, but I probably push that ball more before the ball will really start to roll. You know something I like. I have other ideas like that where there's certain walls I like to paint or certain things I'd like to try or certain images like to paint that no one's asking before, right, And it's just like I need to need to find a way sort of balance, like the bread and butter of the practice that keeps the lights on because when I stopped doing the consulting work now, actually, I need to make money selling paintings to support myself, right? And thankfully, I stopped at a point where I felt, you know,

the ball is kind of rolling, so I felt sure that it would happen. And because I sell a lot of affordable paintings, I can still give or take kind of any project. You know, it's like if I only sold $10,000 paintings, being a much tougher position was like this painting, you know, will or won't may be able to pay my bills and keep my practice running. But when I'm selling $200 paintings like that doesn't make the difference for me. And so if someone is being weird, rude or unreasonable, I find just just painting. Um, but But even still, I need to keep,

you know, keep the ball rolling. And as I have an art assistant and as I have a studio space Fortune parent in San Francisco, right, like that needs to run and operate. But then I also need to be able to be creative and take bigger risks, I guess, and do

crazier things and what what are some of the, um, and the last few questions here is one is what's the most uncomfortable you've been as as this solo preneurs artists? What is the most uncomfortable situation you've gotten in

the most uncomfortable? I've been one of the things about. There's a quote from Rick Rubin was a famous music producer. He said. Great art divides the audience. And what I've learned from all my endeavors is that if you get something, people love that yet. Okay, there's a quote from my leaves. L So the opposite of love isn't hate. It's indifference. Actually stole this from him. Inadvertently has to say that it loves and hate. It's apathy. But the worst thing that happened was an artist. She will walk right by your mural and they don't even see it. And so if you get something,

we're going to stump up in love. What? You're just adjacent to hate. And so, you know, I've had people get, um, very angry at me. Right. Um, I've had no, uh, harassment online. Um, very strange harassment fed people threaten me, right?

All for painting a honey bear, right? It's like these are objects of joy. And by and large, you know I'm in that community, right? Either because I live there or I'm standing around painting your old after day, right? Interacting

it Did it? Did it roll off your back, or did you

know, did you? There was a period. There was a period of time where I was having, um, like nightmares and late night wake ups and whatever, where it's kind of really wearing me down because I felt that, like, the goal of the practice was to, you know, alive in people's lives. And the problem is that the I've heard before that you need 1,000,000 pieces of positive feedback to balance everyone piece of negative feedback that you get. And also the haters contend to be louder, right? Right. So when someone when someone goes my instagram, you know,

and tells me that I saw, um or again tell someone that they should hit me in the head with a brick when they see me, then like that freaks me out right and makes me Hillary Negative. Thankfully, that was mostly in a wave. Um, it's almost entirely gone. What is sort of, um like, But it was more. I hit a point where I started painting a lot that I started to go. I start to get a lot of mural opportunities. And so again, I was very focused on this search is crushing up murals. I think maybe I kind of flew a little too high too fast. And then people started freaking out.

Partly sometimes out of jealousy. Like why? Like, I want to paint walls like, Why is this guy getting the walls? Why am I knocking on the walls? Um, partly is out of change, being always uncomfortable like no one wants. You never had to change. Even I'm changing a blank wall into a wall with an art piece of people are like, No, you know, everything is to say the exact thing that it was all the time. Like because what we have right now is good. Um, I think this is true for everybody that we just, you know, we're creatures of comfort.

Yeah, well, in known that jealousy port. Um, when you do have this, this craft that you're putting out there, that people can see it and we'll be on their own in the art world, they could see their own scores, their own scoreboard of followers and and in ah, previous guest Ryan called back talked about the immense, the immense amount of jealousy that, ah, that the startup will can engender within within us. And it was, I mean, I know life. I have felt that so many points in my creator kind of life span have you actually not have you felt it with others?

But have you felt it? Others being jealous if he felt a strong sense of jealousy towards your work? I know it's an awkward question to ask, but in this ah, it's like you stand up comedian takes off, and then the crew that he kind of came eyes up and coming with, um feels immense jealousy towards towards them because it it does feel like it's just there for anyone to take. And you have come in six years, and you've just dominated and created this amazing work that I was a consumer of the work. Just love that it it exists. But there is n v out there for someone else that feels like, Oh, this person is artists, maybe doing it half assed long as I have but is taking this share of the wallet or the share of the minds of people in San Francisco?

Yeah. So one thing about art that it doesn't feel it's very much not a zero sum game, right? Actually, I think it's quite the opposite. Where the problem we have in San Francisco is that there's not a culture anticipation with the arts amongst the general populace. So if you get anybody that starts to get traction actually helps everybody. I just have people care about art at all, right? Like another one of the other Not fun party games. I play with people's Ask people. Hey, can you name me? 10 musicians made a $1,000,000 off their art last year. Again, money is just a metric. Just one that happen to be easy,

understandable, incomparable people. Okay, Cool. J Z, Beyonce. Whatever. Eminem. The guerrillas. Daft punk. Okay, cool. Can you need me 10 actors or actresses? Too many $1,000,000. You're sure Ben Affleck and whatever Matt Damon Schwarzenegger like cocaine. Amy,

10 fine artists and people like Ah, Banksy. I'm like, cool. Not even the top 10 earning artists. The world people don't know. Cindy Sherman Damien Hirst, Jasper Johns, Jeff Koons, David Show like those aren't household names Um, and so I find people kind of internalized this somewhat where people in the art world, because people don't get into it for the money because there's not that much money again. The market is tiny, so So it's sort of like, um, you don't have a reputation as you do in software startups that,

like there's this big, you know, there's a $1,000,000,000 business to be had. You know, there isn't a $1,000,000,000 art business that exists right now. Damien Hirst. Don't think a single billionaire visual artist in the world, Um and I probably threw a rock from where we're standing or sitting and hit a billionaire tech person somewhere, right? And so what? I'm trying to say that people are generally really great and really supportive, right? And sort of being like people more curious. Hey, can give me some tips into high drama social media website.

How do you How do you approach giving tips in a world where you could it just as easily feel like Well, they could. These are my trade secrets.

Yeah, so again, the thing about art is like It's if you were, like the secret. Like the thing that makes Finch Finch is the aesthetic of the art. And if you copy that, everyone should know you copied it, right? There are several artists I'm gonna name names that are just Banksy copiers stylistically and even spiritually. And you can never out Banksy, Banksy like he already. You know, he's carved out Elaine for himself. And so when you drift like part of why I don't to portraiture, it's because Shepard Fairey's comes out such a wide lane for stencil based portraiture. How much have anything to add to that? And so I'm not even gonna try.

Oh, you're copping to ferry, right? I think if someone got close when you're copping Finch And so in some ways it's like a moat, right that once

you kind of feel protected from it. Yeah, yeah, because I know a lot of artists do keep a lot of the There's some tricks of the trade that they that they will absolutely keep close

to the fat. Yeah, I'd say early on, I was very shy about talking about how he did stenciling because you like a couple of things to help me get layers lined up paint with more layers that I think I may have figured out. But now, like the level of production that I'm running to do. Okay, Cool. You wanna go paint a painting like this like sweet, you know, go get like it was a huge production, right? And you can't just use every bit of it, um, to be very hard to copy, like and so it might actually help you. And so I found,

like, I the way that I learned to paint really big central murals was I watch a lot of videos of Shepard Fairey doing it uses paper, central technique, and I figured most of it out, but not all of it. And he was in town painting to murals, and he was in Hayes Valley between one of Cesar Chavez, and she was down there and walked up to him like, Hey, um, you know, Finch. I'm an artist, and I have some questions. Like, how do you get three callers a touch on the mural,

You know, because I figured I had no idea what he was doing was like, Oh, when you cut the paper. You pull it away, you fill it and then you replace the paper back on top of it and you use that replaced paper as the edge of the next thing that you cut. And I was like, Okay, you know, I've seen enough of this stuff online to figure out what that meant. So then I tried it on a small scale. He wasn't being like, No, that's my trade secret. You can't because, like,

if you're going to go get like, um, I really gonna go compete with Shepard Fairey because I figured out how to, you know, the technical way to paint a mural that's 50 feet wine, if you like. You know, there's no way I'm taking guns away from him. And also you really like this idea that you take walls from people is sort of, um, it's a fallacy, because we go walk around San Francisco. This is one the most touristy, difficult place places to paint murals because many of these are historic, so they can't be painted on. They touch so they can't that there's no sides to them.

Like Los Angeles has a thing called a side of a building, which is typically has fewer windows and no doors. And so it's a much better place to paint. And then we've a lot of all glass construction. And so the number of walls here is much smaller than in most cities. And yet I walk around like there's a a wall I've been looking at for a long time. Almost directly across from you is catty corner, and it's right at this great T. Um, I'm not gonna name the streets of people Don't knock on the door, but it's like it's It's an incredible wall for a mural is totally flat, and it's painted, you know, it's easily paint herbal. It's not like Brick or anything that you don't wanna paint, Um,

and so I think I see all these walls I got like a Cal. Go ahead, all the amazing walls. So it just like you feel like okay, this particular wall find that one's now tied up in your own. But there's a launch is around the corner. Even the most dense areas of the city better so incredible about trying to do the work to get it. And that work might be the hard work Yeah, if you want most camera positions I've been in was trying to make my first mural. I go walk into a corner store that had a great wall on Guerrero and I give my spiel. You know, I'm an artist and local and paint a mural, And people usually are like, No, thank you. And this guy wouldn't even talk to me.

He just, like, stared at me and it shook his head. I kept talking, Is kept doing that. Don't say anything until I just like, Okay, I'm gonna leave. And it was like trying on and walked out. And I felt awful because, like, I am shy by nature, I have a speech impediment so sometimes difficult for me to talk to people

like physically. That's why was he so like ordinary around

that? I mean, the guy's an asshole, right or whatever. I mean, people must walk in there all the time. One thing I learned is that a lot of times these places with really great walls, they're not painted because the owner doesn't support art, right? Like if if they had, there would be a mural. There were the tricks I've learned. Share my secrets is that when a when a like a restaurant changes hands when it knew one opens, that's very often a good opportunity because the old owner of the restaurant might not support art with new one might. So the building sells another example. Sometimes you know, that's that's the window when you approach right,

Um, and then sometimes is really a bleak, like there's a you know, um, yeah, speaking of me, feeling jealousy, you know, can be a competitive person, something with these really great walls and somebody else gets that wall like like I really wanted that one, right? And so there was one on on 18th in Guerrero and I walked in there before and it asked if I could paint it, Um, and basically, like, wouldn't it?

Couldn't get any kind of connection. And so, um, Apex there ended up painting, and I was like, Man, how did you get that? He was like, No, the corner store is just a distraction, you know? It's like you get to the building owner who's over here in this other place that you didn't think about, right? And I was over there the other place, and I met this person and I was a media. Yes. That was like, Oh, yeah. Great

has ever asked me before. What's the name of that street

artist? Um, there's a picture. Yeah, um or Apex. You know, he comes with your feedback on a couple different names, but even remember your favorite street artists. Um,

so, yeah, I just got it. Is Zia Ziglar a ce? He

still do. He's He's now in Los Angeles. Okay, but he came up in the bay. He's from the North Bank, and he's been a lot of time here. Um, yeah. So it's in my, um, like, I really I mean, in Francisco. Jeremy Novy, the guy who paints quite fish, was really when I understood that you could do multi, really multilayered stencils like banks.

He wasn't really doing that. He was doing kind of two layers, one with the black one with white, and then eventually I think, enhanced rating and now adding in some brush painting. But he wasn't doing, you know, 45678 layer stencils. It was the koi. That really kind of got me thinking about that as a possibility. Um, so he's one and then? Yeah, There's a lot of great muralist, so Yeah, Effexor is great.

You know, Ross, I mentioned he's great. He wants, Um it's awesome. There's a steamer still young, um, wonderful. These people that you see their work. Like I'm a fan before I was a participant. Right. So I go walk around, walk

to the alleys, and are there some that have stopped doing it That you're like, man, they're so great. Okay. Yeah.

So, um, one of my big frustrations are people that get their start on the streets. I'm gonna name names here, so this is gonna happen. All right. Um, actually, anyone off, man? I mean, I guess Name it. Come on. I'm doing it. Okay. So, uh,

this artist named Victor Reyes whose work I love, he's early style. Was this kind of big, swirly color, um, murals. And then you would kind of work in letter forms where it would say, Reyes or having our or be some of you could even tell. So there's one across from the sycamore off Mission Street. He has a one of a very abstract bird. Say, like van ness remission near 13th. He's got one across the bed bath beyond. That's all black and white. Um, he used to have a wonderful one on the Walgreens at 20 twenties.

And what issue with Okay, Sorry. Yeah. Um, so he's great. He's wonderful. Um, he does a great murals. And then he started getting his fine art career going. Start selling paintings, and he stopped in murals. What happens? And this happened toe. Other artists maybe was named the one name. But people, to me,

the product is the mural. Like, I make the fine art to make the murals because murals is not a great business. Um, but but everyone can appreciate it. Yeah, it's art for the public, right? And like, that's what I said about doing that, you know, art for, you know, the 95% of people that don't go to the art museum, not art for the 1% of people important people that can afford multi $1000 paintings, right?

And so to kind of get it to get to the right bit and then use it as a stepping stone to get So I think it's the wrong bit, right, breaks my heart and there's multiple artists. Maybe we'll stop it one day. Um, because I respect a lot of these artists and their artwork like I'm a huge fan. Um, a lot of these people, and it's kind of like, disappointing to me that they were. The reason why they become became the active, um, is because they just want to make more money. Right? Um, and it's probable complicated in that because there's certain things you can express in on a campus you can't express in a mural.

Certain images I want paint don't think are appropriate for a mural that are more appropriate for canvas. Um, you know, you give a lot more control over it. Um, you're not worried about graffiti, right? So I've seen a lot of Yeah, So you say that to round it out. There's animal reasons why they might have stopped, but, you know, I'm more sympathetic when somebody is displaced because they can afford housing here anymore. They moved to Los Angeles to seeking more opportunity. It's not a very big, fine art city.

And so there's this better opportunities in Miami or Los Angeles, Maybe even New York. Still debatable. Um, they want to be just around the more creative community. There's many reasons will become d active, but But all those dreams live on sympathy with and some of them, Yeah, if there's one

of chase more dollars that is there anyone in Great that just stopped because they pursued different career, could make, could make a living doing?

Um, yeah. I mean, I've seen a couple artists stopping. There was one who was active when I was getting into it named Todd Hanson or today, and he did a cat piece in my neighborhood that I found inspirational. And he he's on again, off again, active. Um, but he's still around, and, you know, I've been in before, and I kind of wish you keep going cause you did cool work. Um, I had a friend early on,

show up with a name like monsters, and she's trying to just try toe, you know, I think I ought to jump in with both feet and like, you know, I thought the work was really good and I couldn't quite get enough traction going before, you know, financial considerations set in. Um, it's kind of kind of deactivated, and it's waiting for everybody there, you know, Come back James, you could decide to start your career Street artist. You need anybody's permission.

Talk about the convo on board of too many projects. Exactly. Got enough, but constantly. No. Yeah, but Okay. So, uh, last question. I want to ask you, um, and because of time force between actual let you choose between three stories that helped shape who you are. Yeah. And and the other question that I asked guesses What something do you think a lot about, but rarely get a chance toe talk about which. Which question?

So, yeah, under the second question. Okay, sections, rapid fire through the first, please. Yeah. The first story would be like, I got into doing illustration very randomly because I had a friend in high school that was working on a video game, and I wanted to work on it, but he was already a programmer, so I need to do something. So I just picked art, you know, had no sales. That's the trouble.

That one and then kind of the failure be like the failure off a business I was active in where I felt very slightly couldn't leave that got me in doing the street art in the first place. That was another one. Um, and then the 3rd 1 actually gonna be kind of the fact that I graduated college was happening 2008 and so effect like I couldn't find the kind of job that I wanted Ended up stumbling into this like toy business women roommate. So all three of those were big change in my life that happened pretty randomly, and we're very the second. We're very distressing. So up here, every short but

more than the removal of options can be one of most clarifying things in

our past. It really destroyed because I had a vision for my life that completely collapsed both in both of those cases. So the topic that people don't talk about very much is budgeting. So as I was making the transition pending a full time artist, one thing I did was try toe, really control how I was spending money so I could spend as little as I could and still live a reasonable life. And even now that the art practice has grown, I pay myself a salary out of the art business, which, you know, hasn't gone up in three years. and so I just have more money to do these other art projects. But I keep paying myself, you know, what would be I mean, I can tell you is I mean, it's not the poverty line in San Francisco,

but it's, you know, well below the median. Um, because I can really talk to control this. And so there, too. Things I recommend for a high level picture there is, um, a book with a terrible name called I Will Teach You to Be Rich by remit. Say, and so he's gonna talking high level strategy about howto When did you discover this book? I did this program with five friends. We basically all did it on her own. It's a weekly program for, like,

seven weeks, and we would do it, Um, like a Google hangout at the end of every week, kind of as a just a reinforced. We talk about what we've done, but more just tow, have shame. So you'd actually do it? And I did it maybe, like 2013 and that will, without doubt, make me rich, right? It's just the kind of things use that emotion. Such as,

like I auto transfer 10% of my earnings into long term savings accounts every month. So they get invested automatically into a diverse portfolio, like through Wealthfront into a diverse portfolio of stocks and bonds, international and local and resources and whatever. Like if you could just. This is a book called The Richest Man in Babylon, which is a very old early 19 hundreds book about you know how to become wealthy, and the main Maximus saved 10% of what you earn. And so Remit says that. But do it so the money was even hit your bank account, right? Like the hits it gets transferred out. It's like it's one of things and then up your credit cards and trying to reduce certain, you know, produce the cost of your phone bill.

And what is the name of

the book again? I will teach you to be rich, so that's kind of a high level, but it really get. It really doesn't do a great job, but but what should you spend? And so there's a book called You Need a Budget. A piece of software called You Need a Budget or Wine Abbe, as the white numbers refer to it and it's it got four principles. Um, that are really about how you actually think about money. And they the two wine abbe people, husband, wife. They lived on some whole layers, a small amount of money. And so it you need to know that what you're doing isn't stupid,

right? Like I don't want to go into debt trying to be an artist. I don't want to go and spend through my savings. I wanted to be cash flow in neutral, right? I want to just keep afloat and then try to do something. I want to dio right? Plus the 10% right. So I'm taking care of my future. I'm taking care of my president. I'm not, You know, I'm like, I don't travels much as I like. I don't eat out at restaurants as much as I'd like. And having that system kind of helped me keep saying and really manage,

really manage my money in a way that I could could take these risks, right? Stop doing consulting. Start painting full time or start painting with three weeks a month. Right now, the other week. I know. I knew I could do it because I knew where the money was going, and for most of my life I didn't do that. It was just trying to just make sure your bank account balance goes up every month, Right? Um, maybe there's ups and downs, and so just I feel like it's a very stressful topic for people, but really understanding, Like, what? What's happening? I think it's something that we don't talk about as a society. You know how you actually manage your finances.

And too many people make money off of people not managing. Yeah, exactly. Yeah, and not. They dominate the conversation and and often can dominate the conversation with with really appealing offerings.

Yeah, and one of the points from room it say is that it's not about like, I don't know, he said. This was somebody else. You can have anything you want. You can't have everything you want, right? And so understanding, like what makes you feel rich? If it is shoes, he is an example of a friend of his was able to spend ah, hilarious man of $1000 a month on shoes but live a very normal lifestyle because, you know, she can prioritize the rest of her finances accordingly. Kill a travel. Sure,

but you need to understand, like what you want and what you need. And then kind of take care of your house right now to make sure that the pieces all work. And so for me, I wanted to spend money building our practice. Right. I want to be able to go paint these murals and paint the street art that I didn't have any clear way of producing any income I want to do in a way that wasn't that I could sleep at night and not worry, right? We could still have health insurance, right? I could still eat, and I can still feel my dog and whatever. Right? Um and so So, yeah. So,

um, every time I think that that is one of things that's going a container full circle to the left brain, right brain, That's one of the things that extremely creative people struggle with. Is that the rigor around a process? Rigor around the research rigor around the foundation. Um, because it's so exciting and enlivening to create to do the creating and impatiently jumping into the creating rather than making sure you you have ah run way to do it for Ah, a long enough time for it to then. Yeah, give you the financial stability to do it even longer. That's that can often be really ah, really difficult thing to balance its and then just also the sheer nature of, um, monetizing creativity is so hard. Yeah, and and it's hard to be one of those artists. You said the median was like $00.

That's my guess. The number I know is the 99th percentile in New York and London. $100,000 a year,

man. Yeah. Yeah, Well, it is that that underscores even more understanding your budget. And, um and I I hear you're not setting goals. Our goals are for losers. I think is weak, but the ah, but the process is require a lot of attention, including the financial process. Well, awesome. This is such an awesome conversation, Finch. Thank you so much for taking the time to think it over to our place.

And, uh, and maybe we'll go walk around the neighborhood, see some Ah, you're gonna point out exactly where you're, uh I hope there's more than just I know of two in our neighborhood that we see pretty often. There's even more that that I'm not even aware of the role start to organize our commutes around. Thanks so much French. Yeah, thank you, friends and listeners. I hope you enjoyed today's episode. If you want to hear more of these types of conversations, go over to your favorite podcast, app and hit, Subscribe or leave us a review.

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