friends and listeners. Today's episode is with Hannah Wilson. She is a mom executive has made the jump from large public company to the world of fast moving startups, and she's one of my neighbors and one of my favorite people in San Francisco. This podcast is an exercise of going below the line with founders, leaders, creators of all kinds. And for any start that makes a dent in the universe. Even employees 100 shoulders the weight of attempting to create something special. Hannah was most recently the VP of sales, often the most stressful department in a startup here in San Francisco for Rainforest Que Es. And we talked about everything from balancing being a mother and an executive to the things that could make you a great sales individual contributor into being the things that that could make you a really poor sales leader to the stories that have helped shape who she has become and the recently acquired habit of meditation, among other things. So let's get into it with my good friend and one of the most respected executives in San Francisco. And for those looking forward to what crazy drink we share this episode. You are out of luck because I've got to do that this time. This is below the line.

But right, Hanna, we were just saying, You're just saying If we if you hadn't via and maybe the next day, um, and we had scheduled for a few days out are weak out. You said that maybe you would have talked yourself out of it. What is the below the line version of of considering coming on to a podcast like this?

You know, I think there's always I think, it's the vulnerability piece and, you know, putting yourself anytime you put yourself out there for an audience, I think, and sometimes scary. Um, and I think it's good Thio face your fears and things that are sometimes scary. So I always encourage my teams to do that, Um, and my family and my kids to do that as well, So I think it's good for me to do, but yeah, it was super excited toe to come and get a chance to talk

to you today. I know it is is very cool for listeners. Hannah and I are neighbors and and our families are friends, and it's just a lot of fun living in this neighborhood together. And, um, like my sometime this weekend, I thought about her coming on to the podcast, and then I told her I was like, Let's just do it tomorrow. And, um, do you mind telling me, like, what went through your mind? Even even more color? Did you think about, like, text me and saying, Hey, let's actually not not do this.

No, I mean, I think I'm pretty good at this point. Like, I know things that make me nervous. And I think I'm pretty good at just doing it anyway. Um, you know, it's something I've had to learn. A cars, of course, in my career. So yeah, it was, uh and then then I started thinking about the different things. We would talk about our conversation the other day, and so I was like, Yeah, this is a really cool opportunity to talk about some of the stuff I've learned.

Cool. Yeah. What is this? Some? What are some of the things that you I hope that we

touch on? Um, I think the vulnerability piece is a good one. I think we should definitely talk about that a little bit. I think working for a start up is good. The stresses that come with that. I mean, I particularly come from a sales career so I can talk a little bit about the stresses that come from having a revenue type of a roll, being on an executive team, being a female leader at a start up. So those are some of the things that being a female leader, that's a mom. So those were definitely some of the topics that I care a lot about.

Yeah, it'll be hard toe. Convince that into our, um well, it's It's a great it's a great checklist. Would love to actually start on the vulnerability piece in your your views on that and for, you know, it's for listeners. It is hand groping in Connecticut and is in ah, in San Francisco. Now it's so from Connecticut to Johns Hopkins to San Francisco, um, can't wait to get into. I have a lot of the of that kind of professional arc, but starting with the vulnerability piece, what has been how's your viewpoint on that? Changed more for moved over

time? Yeah, it's a good question. Um, it's something I've always talked with my team's a lot about from a sales perspective is being vulnerable when you're talking to prospective customers because they're just people, and I think it's easy. When you're a new sales person, you have the script. You have to get it perfect. There's so many features of your products that you want to talk about. But, you know, being on the receiving end of sales calls, if someone's coming at you and just throwing information at you, you tend to like close up. At least ideo Um, when you tend to open up is when someone opens up with you.

And so I think the best salespeople that I've worked with on my team's the best account managers, the best managers, the best account executives, those have all been people that have been willing to put their themselves out there. And maybe they don't say the perfect thing on called. Maybe they miss some of the product features, but they're the ones that get all of the information from prospects, and they hear the rial objection behind the objection. So vulnerability is something I've always talked a lot about with the different teams that I've worked with, And I think when I was a manager and even when I was a director, I was pretty good at being vulnerable. Where I started to struggle with vulnerability personally was when I became a VP, because I sort of had this feeling like, Okay, I gotta hold it all together. Everything's gotta be perfect,

right? Um, and Fred, who was the CEO of Rainforest, gave me a lot of advice on this, and he was like, No, I mean, that's the wrong time because then people don't open up to you and then you don't hear the real struggles that are going on within your organization. So he's like, I know it's scary to be vulnerable when you're at that executive level, but it's even more important than ever.

That's really interesting, and it's it's that's actually a really cool perspective on it, Um, of receiving information on and obviously any kind of human dynamic and is a relationship is relating to one another. You know, Definitional e and we are so often Contin are our own heads of of things that we wish they weren't the case or the things that we wish we could change faults or flaws in and you missed marks. But that relatability piece, um, completely goes away. If someone, if you don't think that they're dealing with anything of any type of challenges, and I think it's really that's also pretty experienced view on sales is really listening more than it is, You know, the idea that most people have in their heads of, you know, car salesman. Yeah, that's just peddling just pushing a deal on someone. But it is so much, so much more listening. Do you mind telling me a little bit more about that?

Yeah. I mean, I think it's really just all about building trust, and I don't know where I heard it, but the other day I heard maybe was on a podcast. Someone was talking about. Our brains aren't wired to believe perfection. And so as soon as you hear like, this is perfect and this is perfect, you start to question it, and when you open yourself up that maybe something isn't perfect, that's when you can really start to build real trust, whether it's with you, know, your team or with a perspective customer. And so I think that's where the vulnerability is so key. Um,

and I know you know, the way that Fred was talking about it with me was when he goes to the board and, you know, talk. Yeah, and he's talking about the, you know, performance of the company over the past quarter over the past six months, the more you could be transparent, the more you can open up. The better those board meetings go, because the more trust that's they're the worst they can go is when you try and you know, no matter how well the company is doing, just believe that everything is perfect and portray everything is perfection. So that was really an important lesson for me moving into a leadership

role. And you've had a varied experience of public companies, start ups and a CZ well, as different roles of manager, director, vice president would have been some of the qualities but may be specific to this conversation that that of executives that you loved.

Yeah. Um, gosh, there's been ah, variety. I think it's people that really taken investment in the people that work for them. And so people that spend the timeto work with you give you critical feedback are supportive. Believe in you. You know what I try and do with my team's is have a very careful balance between really believing in someone making it, you know, an emotionally safe place for them to work, showing them that I really, genuinely care about their personal life in their career and their trajectory, and then balancing that with being really clear on what the expectations are and giving them really critical feedback. Because I think, you know, obviously there's been a ton right and on this, But the more that you can really relate to someone and understand someone and believe in someone, the harder you can push them. And so I think that's a really careful balance that leaders need to

achieve in on that balance. How's your minds that changed on that? Has it changed over time? Of that balance of It's a very tricky, tricky thing because it's both balancing the your own vulnerabilities, blind spots that teams can obviously compensate for, but also, um, you managing just being being invested in their career but also having to hold line? Yeah, on team performance.

Yeah. I mean, it got harder, I think, as I moved up into different roles. So, for example, once I became a VP, I had so much responsibilities in terms of board meetings and executive meetings and doing all these things. And I think at the beginning I sort of let all of that team stuff go by the wayside. I just don't think I was spending enough time with the new managers that were on my team, and so you don't realize. I mean, being a new manager is one of the hardest career drums you ever make. And those people need so much guidance and, you know, being a sounding board and just,

you know, hearing what they're struggling with emotionally as well as with work. And so I think the more time you can spend with those front line managers, the better. And I kind of let that go a little bit one, because I just believed in them and two because I was busy. Um, but I think that's something you constantly have to keep in check is to making, making sure that you're, you know, not just focus on the higher level stuff. But you're focused on the emotions of your employees because if you don't then the repercussions could be very bad in terms of attrition, slow performance, things like that.

What was Is there a moment in your career that you remember is really tough And you had a lot of that going on and you might have been contributing to it and maybe an unknown way at the time?

Yeah. I mean, I think it takes and this is where a great manager comes in because it took my manager saying, like, Look, you're you know, you need to look at your calendar and look how you're spending your time and let's like, take a deep look it like how you're blocking off time and where your time is going on. Let's block off time to do specific things because when you're in the moment, especially when you're working for a start up and things are moving so fast, you don't even think about it. And you know, a week or two or a month can go by where you're not focusing on some of these critical activities. So it takes a great manager helping to spot those things for you. I think

What specific things did you look at within your calendar? like, walk me through like, you know, almost the exact

specifics. Yeah, I'm trying to think back to what some of the things were, Um, you know, a lot of time in meetings where I would be in the meeting, but I didn't have a critical role in the meeting, and I felt like I just had to be there to show that I was there. And so just way too much time in meetings that decisions weren't getting made by me, um, and had to spend way more time focused on the director's on my team on the manager's on my team. Um, as opposed to just large group meetings.

Do you think you being in sales and being in that kind of, ah type of role has contributed to your own? You know, just all of the best practices you learned and things within sales. Do you think those have contributed to you becoming a better manager becoming a better leader? I talked

about what I think listening. I think the vulnerability, Um, but sometimes being great at sales is sort of counter to being a really great manager, because when you're in sales, it's all about like I got to get to the number. I got to do these activities that got to do these activities quickly. And I think once you sort of get to that next level in your career, it's more thinking long term about, you know, what can I do now that's going to drive the business and 30 days and 60 days and, you know, 1/4 or a year And so one of the transitions that I think a lot of sales people go through as they move up is like especially a lot of companies today are on monthly quotas. And so you're just constantly thinking month over month, and it's changing that time horizon of how you're thinking about things and changing. I don't know that the aperture of you will of like what you're looking at on a given day

in the goal side of things. Obviously, that's like the I feel like that is, it's almost like the oxygen in the room of of everybody's just psychology and the gold side of things can be obviously hugely motivating. But I'm as as someone that has seen, you know, ambitious goals and multiple high flying companies, Um 10 years from now. What innovations do you think will have been made that will make you 2019 in that monthly goal setting type of perspective? Seemed like like this dark ages or so counterproductive.

I mean, it's a good question because right now it's like the the monthly goals so many companies air hesitant to even to move to quarterly quotas because it's like you've got to keep that momentum up. But that's really hard to keep that kind of energy up on a monthly basis of every single month. Like, you know, back in the day when I worked for larger companies, we had annual quotas. When you work for war enterprise cos you have these annual quotas, I think it's a different environment when you move to a really high growth, high velocity environment like benefits or rainforest, and it just like every month, there's no down time and people don't even want to take vacations because there's a monthly quota. And if you miss, you know the demos that you're getting for a week that could kill your month. And so I think that that's why, from a management perspective, given that sort of high intensity environment that a lot of sales started.

You know, start ups and sails face. I think it's even Maur incumbent on the managers to really sort of take the pressure off their team. So, like I spent a lot of time and energy, how do I make this light? How do I make this fun? How do I take the pressure off? Because I know there's enough pressure already, And as soon as the account executives start to feel that internal anxiety, it translates to calls and prospects here. That and customers here, that and that's, you know, just a vicious cycle.

Yeah, yeah, it really it really is. And then, you know, if it gets away from you, your response can be we need more pressure. Yeah, exactly. Have you seen that? And and, you know, the last 15 years

and yes, I mean, I d Oh, yeah, it's just a natural reaction, right? And, you know, as soon as and it's from the top down. As soon as you know, maybe there's a month where you're not hitting the quotas that you had set out to, you know, there could be pressure from the board and then that trickles down to the CEO, and then that trickles down to the head of sales. And it's like, How do you be that person that can stop it so that the people under you don't feel that?

You know what is what? What would the eye the ideal CEO do in those in those circumstances?

I think it's acknowledging that the pressure is there is probably key, because it is. I mean, I think if you're going to try and say like, Oh, everything's fine, there's no pressure. I mean, you're just being dishonest, and that probably makes the problem worse. I think just acknowledging that the pressure is there but helping to give your team perspective because, I mean, if you miss quota for 1/4 like it's not the end of the world, what's the end of the You know what is decorative is if that spirals and people start to have this feeling like things were negative than that could have a ripple on or a domino effect. And so I think giving people perspective is really

key. Is there an example in your career that, you know, without you mentioning companies or anything, has there been an example in your career where, like, you could walk me through specific like this what it was like And this is how it it went from bad to worse because of just missed opportunities to yeah, to do X wire.

Yeah, I think the hardest thing and this has happened to me in a couple of different companies, um, is when you lose great people and that's, you know, that's the worst thing that can happen is when there's someone on your team that feels like there's too much pressure and there's too much stress and maybe they go one month without hitting quota, and then it's too. And then it's three. And then, you know, you don't feel like there's coming back from it. And so, you know, that's the one big thing that I think all leaders need to prevent because we all know the cost of patrician.

You have the and for listeners, Do you mind giving some more color to the cost of

attrition? Yeah, I mean, I don't have ah specific. I think there's two ways you could look at it. I mean, you can obviously do you know, when analysis and you could say how many days it takes to train someone and hire someone. It's huge, I mean it. Especially if you work for a company with a technical product being able to find that person being able to train that person. I mean, you might be talking six months till you get someone really great up and running. But more than that, you know, so much of Silicon Valley is based on the, um I guess I don't know how you say,

like the reputation, you know, And people like salespeople sort of travel in pods and like this cos hot, this company's hot. And as soon as you have a couple of people leave that could be pretty detrimental for hiring war. Great people

in the focus they'll go tell.

Yeah, yeah, you know, I think the world is really small, so it's the cost of that one particular higher. But then it's also the broader cost over time that you have to think about.

Yeah, it is that it seems super really tough toe. Actually, we were chatting about this the other day that I think it might even be harder for people like in sales than it is for founders on that career path narrative front because profound er you if you are, you know, creative and you're and you're good at at creating from scratch. There's something to be said for you just being like, Well, it's OK, this doesn't work out. I can create from scratch again, create And in Silicon Valley, you know, we laud people that have failed and got back on the horse. But one of things that you were telling me two nights ago that was really interesting was within sales, like if you get if you get let go. If you were,

if you were not great, it and it could have just been a fit it could have been something completely unrelated. Work could have been a family thing. It was really hard to recover from that. And do you mind walking me through a little bit more of what? You what you're saying what

I mean. It's It's one. It's hard for the individual, you know, any time, that one, because the performance is so transparent. You know, every past couple cos I've worked at it's like on a big screen, and it's on all of your sales force dashboards and everyone knows where everyone ranks against everyone else. And there's a blessing and a curse to that. I mean, that's what I loved about sales. And I've always had teams where it's super transparent because I think it's fun and it's energizing and, you know, being a competitive person myself, like more than the compensation.

I always just wanted to be at the top of the list, and I think it also creates a very level playing field. And so being a woman in sales and being able to work my way up, it was like Okay, if I could just make it to the top of the list. And so I felt like it was very equal. Um, that said, when you're on the bottom of the list and every sales person, even great people are at some point or another, how do you get yourself out of that like emotional rock, which is another really key role of manager of sales managers is to help people get out of that, and I think you know you can't like hit people when they're down. Um, you have to build people up and you have to give them that confidence that they might not have at a particular time. But it's hard.

I mean, if if someone has, you know, one of those ruts for an extended period of time, being able to pick yourself up and get your confidence back is really,

really hard. How do you coach someone in that? Um,

you know what I've always done? I think the hardest part is that you feel a lack of control. And so one of the natural reaction

for you as a manager

for the for the person, you know, in one of the things that I always here, when people are in a rock is not always but very often is It's like, Well, this isn't going my way and I'm getting bad calls and you know, I'm getting these objections about the product, and it's looking a lot outward, and so I think it's sort of counterintuitive, but really, what you have to do is you have to take complete ownership of it, and you really have to look inward and say, like, What are the five things that I could do better on the next call and then, you know, maybe you're staying later every night. And you're,

you know, making sure that you're making your own lock and just kind of going through that mental exercise of, like, taking back some piece of control can oftentimes get you out of it. Like a foothold. Yeah,

interesting. What would be an example where you've seen it work? Well, for people getting out of a rut?

Yeah. I mean, I see it all the time like there's great performers. And for whatever reason, there's a couple of months where, you know, things start to go south. Um, and some of you know I've seen the best day is they do that? They folk, they take control account executives, they take control of it. They, you know, look inward. They say these are the, you know,

the five things. You know, I listened to all my calls that I've had across the past six months. I heard this pattern like, I want you to listen to my calls. I've had other my colleagues, listen to my calls. So one of the and this probably goes beyond sales to. But one of the things I look for is just people that are willing to take 100% ownership over their own performance. Um and so, yeah. I mean, there's been some great examples where people come back from that and, you know, blow it out of the water for the rest of the air.

And do you think so? With that logic, would you say not taking 100% ownership is is yeah, that is what makes you miss that foothold. You can't gain gain the ground

finishes, you're spiraling and it's like it's everyone's fault, like, And then I didn't You know, I didn't. They passed this demo to someone else. And then this happened. And then this happened and you just lose all sense of control.

Yeah, that's I was just chatting with a friend about, um, he's talking about complaining. Is he using a quote? I think it was from Come over. Who would just said Complaining is not a strategy, and and yet it is easy as a s humans. It's in her nature. If something is working against you, then it can be easy to point to that as as, um, something that if you got rid of it, then you'd be fine. Complain about it, acknowledge you recognize it But yeah, acknowledgment isn't a strategy,

and that's the most. I think maybe that's the most, um, compassionate way to look at complaining, complaining in general it is. So we chat about it for a few minutes. I just I hadn't really thought about the topic, but complaining just repels courage. And and I have been thinking about for the last 24 hours that complaining in general just it repels your own courage because it's like it's like saying you, whether it's a founder of whether it's an employee, I think you want to be led like I know that when I was hiring people, I wanted to, I only wanted to hire them. If I could follow them into the fire, I wanted to follow them. And people that complain it's like them saying out loud,

Follow me. I I have no control. Yeah, and it's really hard to follow them, whether they're on your team or obviously there leading your part of the organization. It's, um it repels courage.

Yeah, and I think it's a manager. You have to have this careful balance because you can't go to employees and you like no complaining. Just bring me your solutions like people. And I just took me a while to learn is like people need to get things off their chest and they need to feel heard. And so spending a lot of time with them toe let them get out their frustrations and get, you know, get those feelings out. But then quickly move on, Thio. Okay, What are we gonna do about it here?

Yeah, Acknowledge? Yeah. Check the box of acknowledgement and then actually come up with a strategy. You mentioned that, uh, a sales later. It's being good at tales. Can actually work against you in a leadership role in sales. Um, you mind giving me a little more detail on that? That's I totally like. It's the same thing for an entrepreneur, it's you. You get started because you're optimistic you willing to overlook massive challenges, and then that becomes a huge weakness if you continually overlooking massive

Yeah, I think the thing that I, you know struggle with the most is the competitiveness. Because being hyper competitive is so good for sales. Being hyper competitive is not so good for being on an executive team. Because and when I think when I first got into a leadership role. I sort of took that competitive mindset. And I was like, Okay, I'm gonna be the best executive here, and that's not the right way to look at it. I mean, this is an executive team that you should be working with to make the company better. It's not like Hannah, you as a sales executive are better than the other. You know, you're not looking to shine.

You're looking toe look critically at your organization for the benefit of the whole company. So that was definitely one big lesson learned that was hard coming from a sales perspective. I think the other thing that was hard is looking at the long term success of the company. And so sometimes what's right for the long term success of the company might be at odds with, like hitting that monthly quota. Yet as ah, you know as a C R. O. Is a VP of sales, you're always responsible for hitting that monthly quota. So there's sort of this inherent tension with like, you need to look at what's best for the long term success of the company, and you need to continue to hit that monthly or quarterly or annual number, so that that's definitely a

challenge. Do you have Romano leader leadership role models That that Roma, that basically modeled this type of of leaders with these types of qualities?

Yeah. Um, one of the really good things. When I was first promoted, Fred, our CEO of Rainforest, gave me a lot of mentors, and I'd had other mentors to, like, really great sales leaders that I'd work for in the past. But it was super helpful to just have a range of mentors to get to talk Thio and people that I felt like I could be totally honest with about the challenges. Um, and so that definitely really helped me.

What was some of the advice that I gave you that's really stuck with you?

Um, I mean, there's so much advice. I think that I've been given across the past few years. It's it's hard to think of, like, what was the one piece of advice that that really stood out? Um, I mean, some of the thing you know, they're very, like tactical. I think recruiting is one of the big things, um, in terms of, you know, it's you should be spending as a leader just a cz much time on recruiting as you are.

If you work for a high growth company, as you are working with your current team and you should manage the recruiting funnel the same way you would manage a sales pipeline. And so you need to know, like, how many candidates do I have in the funnel? You need to work on a weekly basis, you know, how are those candidates moving through the funnel? Because the worst thing that you can do is be caught without enough People are without the right people and so keeping that constant balance between like, Okay, this is what I'm focused on with my current team. And then this is what I'm focused on with the talent that I'm trying to bring in because I think I'd sort of lost sight of that. I was like, Oh, the recruiting team will just bring candidates in, but your job is a leader is to, like, find the best people and not to rely on others to do that.

Yeah, recruiting is such an art, and no one I feel like we don't talk nearly enough about it in this in Silicon Valley. Yeah, it is. It's like you do have to figure out on your own how much of you know the nuclear engine. It can be if you get it going. You know, if you get the actual flywheel going and you got great candidates and great team members joining and how drastically painful it can be to not have that going and then feel this that being this scarcity minds, if we just need a body and the door, we need someone for this role and then, you know, that's what, As I heard, it said, If you think it's, um and it's also just there's so many aspects to a two of of her and great people.

I mean, you mentioned the fly Well, I think that's interesting, because what I've always thought about great recruiting is it starts at the culture that you've set for your team. And so I've been really fortunate at some of the companies that I've worked for where we've had a really mean, obviously the product's been good. The company's been growing, so that's super helpful. But then the team itself has been one where everyone helps each other. People are excited to come to work every day, and so they're recruiting their friends, and they're recruiting other great people. Um, in that network effect and the referrals, That's really, really powerful. Um,

and so I think that it's not just like, you know, team management is one thing, and then talent recruiting management is another. It's also interconnected.

It's Have you been in a place where it's been very disconnected or it is worked against you?

Um, I mean, I honestly haven't haven't, um I think one place where it worked really well with that rain forest. We just had this like culture that got out into the marketplace, that we were a team that people wanted to work for, like not only, and the biggest thing in sales obviously is like Are you hitting your quote? Are people making money? But more than that, it was like everyone helping each other, and we had this really cool environment where everyone was like joining each other's calls, and there was a lot of team camaraderie. And like even though everyone individually was really competitive, it was like this team, the sense of like were in it. together,

and we're gonna, like, win together. And if there's something you're not good at, I'll get on that call, I'll help you with it. And so it was like, you know, one plus one equals three. And that was really, really special.

Yeah. Is, um well, the and I feel like I could talk for hours on that. But I do want to get to some of the other other topics that you had mentioned, One of which was, um you're being a female executive. You're in Silicon Valley, actually. Just zooming out for listeners. You are a badass. You executive within the, um, within this this 20 mile radius of Silicon Valley that that is, has so many world changing companies. And I mean that, like,

truly world changing companies. Um, what is the the above the line version? You know, I mentioned a little bit intro and we talked a little bit about above the line version. What is the below the line version of where you are here in San Francisco? You know, it's a Sunday afternoon. What's the bloodline version?

Yeah, I think the above the line version is, you know, wow, Hannah, you have you have this great sales job and there's very few women sales leaders and you have two kids and you live in San Francisco and, like, this is amazing. And, you know, it worked really hard to get there. I think the below the line version is like is really, really hard. Um, and sometimes I didn't even realize how hard it was because I'm so in the daily grind. Um, I mean,

you know, my family. I'm lucky to have a husband that does a ton and brings the kids a lot of places. And, you know, he's the one that brings them to school, picks them up, makes their lunge, you know, if they need to leave and they're sick in the middle of the day. He

Trevor T. Funk is, as I call, but

that's I mean, that's sort of the below the line version. Like I can do a lot because I have that, um, the other below the line version and I I was talking to a group of female leaders about this a couple of weeks ago was that I don't really do much else besides work in my family. Um, I don't really have any hobbies. I don't read as much as I used Thio. I don't really watch TV. Um, I don't like hang out with friends very much. And it's tradeoffs that I'm willing to make because I love my career and I love my family. Um, but you know, there's only 24 hours in the day, right? So there is other things that have to go when you're gonna move in this direction.

One of them, one of the things. My wife, um, and we're in her art studio right now that she has said and and she's friends with Hannah's, um, it's really She said it, I think maybe 45 days ago and is really sweet Thio hearsay. But also, there's, you know, pain in there as well. She just said, It's really nice to hear someone say You can't have it all because it's so hard to go through each day thinking that there are people out there that have it all with on every vector of their career in professional social lives, and then feel like you really have to make sacrifices and, um and it's so obvious that that it requires whatever we want in life requires men sacrifice, but it can be really hard when someone puts out a fake version or unrealistic version,

as you can have at all. Um, and it's It's so complicated because maybe you can, over the course of 40 years, who is different, you know, privatization. But it is. Thank you for sharing that. It's, you know, it requires a lot of sacrifice. I we chatted at last year. I think you told me you basically worked every day last year or something. Yeah. Was

that the case? Yeah. I mean, I worked every day every night, and I don't even think I realize some of the sacrifices I was making, um, you know, and just little things. Like not getting to put my kids to bed as much and not getting to, you know, used to run home from work, not getting to run. And those little things can actually add up to pretty big things where over time, you just get so burned out. And so I think it's really important for everyone. Like you have to Yes. You're gonna have to give up a lot. But you have to figure out like, what are those non negotiables because it's okay to give those up for a week or maybe a month. But as soon as you start giving those up over time just leads to incredible burn out. I think

you know, what kind of personal transformations do you feel like you're going through right right

now? Yeah, I was just writing 29. Yeah, I'm just trying to focus on, you know, what are those little things that I can do to get my energy back on a daily basis? Because it doesn't have, Like, I don't need to go on a two week vacation. It's different for everyone. Sometimes some people are like, Oh, I need to just totally disconnect for two weeks or something For me, it's It's really small things. It's like meditating for five minutes or, you know,

putting my backpack together in the morning so that I can run home from work and clear my head before I get home. So it's like all those little things, because if I'm waiting for you know, the two week vacation, I'm never gonna be able to sustain it like I have to have it every day where it's, you know, you know, the stress is manageable.

Well, in, like you're saying with someone in a rut, just needing a foothold, and I know not met me. Obviously, it's a metaphorical, but, you know, a foothold, by definition is so small. But it is. What gives you a leverage in many ways to Noto achieve new heights and the you mentioned meditation. When did you start meditating?

Yes. I started about a year ago of super skeptical of it. Um, our CEO had given it to the entire executive team. I think he'd done meditation. We took classes with this guy. James Brown is in San Francisco, and when I heard about it was like, six hours or something that we were gonna have to go. It's like, broken up across, like, 32 hour periods. And I'm like, Oh, my gosh. Six hours, like, let me think about all the things

I could do it E o right.

I'm not gonna be able to sit there for five minutes. And as soon as I started, I just, like, snapped into it, and I just felt my blood pressure. I had no idea how fast my blood was going through My body. It was like jet fuel, like all day, 24 hours a day. And as soon as I went into the meditation like I almost fell asleep every single time, like 20 minutes would go by in the blink of an eye. And so I think, like I needed meditation more than anyone, and I now I just do it wherever I can. Like, I do it on them uni on the way to work.

I just like, close my eyes and 10 minutes later, I'm like, at my destination, feeling a lot better. So it's been awesome for me.

What were the classes like? Uh, especially that first class, like walk me through that skepticism 2 to 20 minutes, you know, flying by.

Well, the only thing I really remember from the first class is my back was so bad, and I don't know if that was I mean, it was an injury, but it's also just like the stress, that tension, everything, like I couldn't even sit like I'd ally on the ground and do the meditation class. And the kind of meditation that it is is you just say one word over and over. They give you a mantra, and it's just it's, I think of it is like no stress meditation. It's not like, Oh, I have to be meditating right now. I have to be thinking about one specific thing. It's like you keep saying the word over and over again.

If you lose it, that's fine. If it comes back. If you stop saying it, if you just want to think about something else, so I'm more saw. It is just like 20 minutes of relaxation. Um, but it's made a huge day. I feel like and afterwards I just felt like I was more productive than I've ever been.

That's interesting. Well, I say it's interesting. It's always interesting when I hear people's, I kind of find, you know, their paths to to meditation or mindfulness or gratitude journals or things like that, because it it is. It's always this narrative arc of like It's so simple. But like adjusting con. In the previous episode, talked about Ah, Gratitude Journal just saying thinks he's grateful for the three things every day and how big of a toehold our foothold thatwas for his overall baseline happiness each day. And it's similar with meditation it could be, I think, so many of our heads. It's just this big,

grandiose thing. And that's where a lot of skepticism I know came from and myself or others that it just just how could it be that simple? But it's, um it is as powerful as it is. A zit

is simple. And just like the physical effects I felt were crazy, like, That's what I hadn't expected. Like, I could just feel my blood slowing down. My heart's slowing down my leg hands opening up. I was like, Wow, this is This is crazy.

So when was the last time you meditated?

Right before I came over here.

Really? All right. Where

were we? Yes, when my kids go take a nap in the afternoon, I'll just go, like, lie in the backyard. Um, so I was lying there for, like, 10 minutes. My husband came towns like, let's jab like, No, I don't want to chat. I'm relaxing right now. Um, but yeah, that's nice. Toe. Just Klein. The fresh air on the weekends?

Yeah. Is it so nice? It's It is. You know, I'm so unabashedly a fan of Medicaid, I feel like it's like this thing that it is a bit of, ah of a cliche to talk about at least last, like, three or four years. And and, um, you know, in tech or with the Valley because it just it it seems to so many people to be this, like woo thing. But I heard it described as kind of, like, 60 70 years ago.

You'd see this guy at the circus that lifted weights and they'd have this like, you know, the spandex suit, the handlebar mustache. And it was like a freak just lifting these heavyweights. And then you fast forward 50 years and everybody works out and everybody exercises. And it went from this fringe freak thing to It's actually like such a obvious thing that is, you know, a area where we should work if we're not doing it. Yeah, and I feel like mindfulness is going t take that same path. Yeah, over the next 20 years, it will be so strange if if someone can't find peace and quiet alone or never does or just thinks that it's not for them, just like we've you exercise today.

Yeah, it was interesting. I was just looking I mean, you know, I was just looking at schools for my son, who's going into kindergarten, and a lot of schools actually talked about mindfulness like we have a couple minutes in the morning or we do a reflection exercise in the afternoon. It's I never thought about kids needing it just a

cz Muchas we D'oh! Yeah, my I'm so lucky that my dad taught us to meditate when were, like, eight years old. Tomoo he it was this time. Yeah. So he was in Dallas, Texas. It was total strange thing for him to he loved meditation. You basically have books on Buddhism around the house. And, um, he, uh, in your own and WASPy Dallas, Texas.

It was you that kind of strange, but I'm so thankful. Um, because it was something that tapped into, you know, for the last 20 something years. Um, So what? What are some of the other things that you do for that sanity and for the just the psychological health of being in these high power rolls. And I want to talk about the difference contrast between startups and bigger companies here in a sec. But what are some of the other things that you do that keep me grounded.

Um, for me, just being active is that probably the biggest one? Um, I've run my whole life, and so that's like a big outlet for me. And it sounds kind of silly, like, Oh, running, of course. But it's it's actually huge. Um, some people that work with me now I often times run home from work. Um, have a backpack and I stick my, uh,

ipad in there, and it's just it's awesome because for me, like, I don't want to go to the gym after work when I want to spend time with my kids like have such a small window every day to spend with my kids, which is basically like 6 to 7 30 which I pretty much just block off every day. Um, I don't do really any work between that time frame, and I try and just be there for them. So I don't want to go to the gym after work or things like that. So being able to come uo and work out at the same time, it's huge, and I really felt it cause, ah, when I moved here like it kind of became harder. Thio run tau work. Um,

just because of the row and what not my back was hurting, so I couldn't, like, carry my laptop in my bag anymore. And I really, like felt that, um And so I mean, when I talked before about like, what are some you have to figure out? Like, what are those non negotiables that you just can't give up when life gets so busy for me? That was one

of them. What are some of the others?

Well, there's really not have any other since I don't really have many hobbies right now, it's back to our previous conversation about you can't have it all. Um, for me, being with my kids is really, um is relaxing in the sense that, like your mind, totally has to adjust. And you probably get this, too, with the daughter that's just starting to walk. It's like, you know, I would I would tell my manager before I'm like, I just need to keep them alive. And it's like I can't think about work because it's like,

don't touch this burner And like, don't fall off this railing, right? So it's like shift. It really does shift your mindset, even though it's like you don't really get much downtime. It does. Sort of I wouldn't say relax you because you're sort of exhausted. But it is like a big shift in mindset that could be helpful.

Yeah, I've found it helpful just to have something that is, at least for me and my experience, something that is so clearly more important. Yeah, than anything career wise. That, then, is like this grounding wire of like, Oh, the things careerwise don't matter. Can I have this very nice, um, alternative to think about That is way more important. And how was your How have your house, your perspective on career and family balancing it all shifted over time from roger year old asses five. Okay.

From six years ago to today if Roger Easton is Teoh. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So what is How's it shipped it over the last six years?

Um I mean, for one. I think in many ways it's made me a lot better at my job in my career because I just have I have to focus like I can't procrastinate

when people say that often. What? What like How How does that? Yeah, specifically, tactically, How does that work?

Because it's just like OK from 6 to 7 30 Like I'm not working And, you know, maybe on Friday there's a two hour block because there's something at my son's school. So it was like the hours I have arm or condensed. And so I'm like, Okay, I need to finish this by Friday afternoon, which means I need to finish this by Thursday, so I just have to be a little bit more productive during the day. I can't, like, let things slide or go for a longer than expected, you know, coffee or something like that. So it sort of forces you into more time constraints, for one, Um,

but I think it's also made me better just in terms of being a manager, because before when I was a manager, I was sort of like to hard core like, you know, e expect this on this date, and you know, I'm working 24 hours a day. You need to work 24 hours a day, and I think it's just made me a little bit more patient with people and like understanding people more like this is someone's child, you know, in the I don't know. I just I understand people. I think in a different way than I used

to go. Yeah, as has the experience of being right on the no front row of seeing a life unfold and learning unfold Has that also impacted it to where you like. Okay, this is maybe help humans learn. Yeah, or this is the space that they need to develop. Yeah. Has any of that

impact? Yeah, it's sort of this weird balance because I had this conversation with my mom maybe a month ago, and she was talking about a swim race that I was in. I don't know. I must have been 10 or something, and something happened and it, like something was rigged like the other parents had some something up. And I didn't get on the relay team that I should of or I wasn't in the heat. I should have been in. And she's like, I didn't say anything at the time, like I didn't say anything to the coaches and she's like, I felt and then you were so upset about it, and she's like, I felt bad about that for years. Like,

why didn't I say something? Why didn't I step in? But he's like, now I look at it and I'm like, that was like, the best thing I ever did because you sort of, you know, And that was like one example of many of like you having toe find your own path and like you being upset and you having to work your way through it on your own. And like as a parent, that's so hard to Dio, because you want your kids to be happy and you want them to be successful. And so I mean, I definitely still struggle with that is like, How do you give them the freedom to fail? Right? And,

you know, yeah, there's, um Aristotle has a quota of virtue is, ah, the proper attitude towards pain and pleasure. And it's almost like the quote says nothing and everything all and one with the proper attitude than obviously next questions like, What's the proper attitude? But there is something so deepened, and in that observation that your mom's saying okay, that pain in the short term may have been much. It probably was way more valuable then you know the pleasure that you would have had that maybe didn't have an impact

at all. Yeah. So I try and think about that with my kids as well as with my team. And like, you know, the stakes were high. When you work for hydro startup and their venture funded and you don't you can't really afford to fail. So it's like But, you know, you sort of have to give people that freedom because you also don't want to be, like, so tight managing them, because that could have just as bad of negative repercussion. So it's this constant balance,

what has been an inflection point or a deep low point in your career that would map to something like that pain that ended up, you know, years later, with more perspective, like shit. Okay. I actually glad that that happened.

Yeah. I mean, I think when I was first promoted to a manager, I would say it was like a pretty bad manager. Like, I think people probably didn't like working for me. I think I was just way too, like micromanage e and, you know, focused on, like, the details. And I don't think that drove the best performance of people. Um and so after I you know, this was pretty early on in my career, I think then going on to be a manager again. And I went back to an individual contributor role for a little bit and then going back to be a manager again,

this time being a mom, I was like, Wow, I feel like a really good manager now. Um, but I probably wouldn't have been if I hadn't gone through that.

What? What feedback like, Did you get that? You were You're not doing a great job. Or is it just, you know, hindsight?

I think it was. I think it was hindsight. At that point, I don't think feedback was as sort of like right now, every you know, feedback is everything that was like, 10 years ago when it was like, OK, annual performance reviews and we're going to give feedback once a year. I mean, now feedback is just so constant, like it's just so part of your life. Um, you know, with our teams, all of their calls are recorded. We have these sessions,

like every Friday, where the team will come in and we'll play someone's call and people will get feedback. And it takes a lot of vulnerability to do that, like just to put yourself out there and be like, You know, I stocked on this call. Um, but it's cool that, like now, feedback is so much in the thinking of what everyone

does. Is there a chance that it is a pendulum could swing too much to where there's too

much for you back? Yeah, I think so. And it's the same thing with, like, ownership to, um, you know, life becomes pretty hard when you're just like constantly getting feedback and you're constantly taking ownership over everything, and that can lead to like a lack of confidence, too. And so again, it's like this balance of like pumping people up and giving people sort of that emotionally safe environment so that you can give the feedback because it can't be too much. Definitely.

Yeah, what is what has been it? I I couldn't I couldn't agree more, but I don't I don't know enough or haven't thought enough about what the ideal is, but it's certain it feels like we're living in a world that is so feedback rich. And if you take that kind of like the psychological adage that it's one piece of negative feedback requires 10 piece of positive feedback to balance it out. It's I feel like we live in a world, and I think that's for any creator, any employees, any like, You know, just you could be an artist putting your work out there on social media and it feel can very much feel like there's not enough feedback loops or positive feedback that it's, you know, everybody has a microphone, and even if it's just 30 40% of the time, it's it's negative and 20% of the time, 30% of time it's neutral.

It's not enough to outweigh the negative. The positive isn't enough. Doubt the way, the negative, And then you bring it into like a startup realm where time is not your friend, and so you have to deliver that negative feedback right quickly or you're just receiving negative feedback really quickly. That's I'm stumbling through this this topic because it's not one that I've thought too much about, but it feels like we're in a feedback rich and almost by definition, kind of a negative feedback rich culture.

Yeah. I mean, I could definitely see that. And I think everyone's different. Some people thrive off that type of negative feedback, and they just see it is away. Like I'm I'm gonna take this and I'm going to get better. And I don't want good feedback because I can't get better for me. Like I think it's being introspective and knowing what motivates you and as a manager, knowing what motivates the people on your team. And so for me, like, I mean, I need positive feedback that, like, positive you back. I feel like I think back to when I played lacrosse in high school,

I had a coach who, um, every time I didn't catch the ball with, like, yell at me and and and then I never caught the foe. So, like, you know, and if I look back at that, like if she'd been like candy, you got this, I think I would have probably performed better. So I just know that about myself. And then I can communicate to the managers that I work with, like, throw me a bone every once in a while. But I'm also very self critical, and I take a lot of kind of accountability. Um and so I think that balance is good.

So one thing that one of the things that I'd like to ask guests is as stories of helped shape who they are, they are today. Can you think of a story or a few that have helped shape who you've become today? That you that you look back and say OK, those were major inflection points.

Um, I mean, I think being a mom, definitely, I think even more so, You know, my my first was a boy. And then two years ago I had a girl. I think having a girl was a big inflection point. You know, I've been in sales, which is a very male dominated field, and been in technology, and I think I never even really looked at like gender differences, especially being in sales because it's like I've always felt like there's a level playing field, and I've always felt like if I could just be the top, then I'll get to the next level,

and I have, like, I've been able thio get two different levels, and so I didn't even see some of the things that some of like the gender disparities that were happening, really until I had a daughter and I just look at her and she's so smart and she's so like, feisty and strong and she just does things like really quick. And so sometimes I get sad. I'm like, When does this change? Like at what point in her life is like She's so much less likely to be a CEO or to be a founder or to be a head of sales, like when in her life Does this change? And it sort of makes me sad because I'm like, I've sort of been, like, blind to it and that, you know, And I think you know everything that's like happening in the media like I sort of start to pick up on these small things that I never picked up on before. Um, so having a daughter has definitely changed my perspective.

That's interesting. Yeah, I I have an indention in my chest and it's so but you bring this up and I'm like, Yeah, when I I probably didn't know that that was different. I didn't know that that didn't fit people's narrative for I don't know. I was, like, six. Yeah, or seven. And then it it really dominated my mindset in so many different scenarios. And it was because I was just told over 18 months, maybe of different interactions. Okay, that is different. And it's this small,

little like, you know, um, bodily characteristic that just what I was told. Okay, that's really different. And but I remember being like 345 I remember a time that I just had no idea. And then it became this thing of that totally, kind of just was an asterisk of was different. That's so interesting that you framed it as a moment in time that, like, when is that moment where things will change?

And then I always think about, you know, I have to be super conscious about how I treat her and is it different? And I'm always thinking about that, Like, do I comment on her? Looks more than I comment on my son's looks. Do I say things that are very subtle about, you know, activity sheep should participate in versus activities he participates in, you know, or do they just have different interests? Like, you know, I get him Legos because he loves playing with Legos and I get her dolls because she loves playing with dolls. But, um, I like feeding into gender disparities from an early age. As you know, I think about that a lot.

What is your What is your experience so far? Two year old five year old. What does it tell you? Uh, those kind of questions.

It's interesting because there's like in some ways, like he's so sensitive. And he has, like, you know, those characteristics that I want a foster in a boy, which is like being really empathetic and being really sensitive and caring and not like Oh, you have to be like, you know, boys, boy. But my daughter, on the other hand, is like supervised A and, you know, well, knock anyone over and I sort of don't want to,

like, check it because I kind of like it, Um, but, you know, there's There's only so much that I don't also don't want to get

kicked out of preschool does. Do you remember a moment, an inflection in your life where you felt like you had been put in kind of a narrative? Um, box

um So I feel like, you know, I went to an all girls high school, and it was very much like, you know, women can do anything, you're gonna change the world. And then I got into a sales job and I was like, always, you know, the top of the list. And I felt a lot of success there, so I didn't really feel it. I think it was definitely hard being pregnant in Silicon Valley, like more so than just being like a mom. Just the physical, like looking different.

Um, especially when you worked at a start up culture. That's a lot of like 20 something year olds, mostly men. You know, it was weird because I would get so many comments on my physical appearance and people like not meaning harm. But just like, Whoa, you look like you're due any day. You

know, it's one of them. You

feel. I mean, it was like, OK, well, let's talk about how the team's doing and let's talk about, you know, the projects that were working on and like, you know, people don't comment on my appearance now like it was just weird was like this nine month period where everyone's commenting on your appearance.

Yeah. What was the below the line version? What went through your mind when people would make those comments?

You know, if the time it was more just sort of annoying. I think the neg below the line was like when I was on maternity leave. I just felt so much pressure, like, Okay, I'm gonna come back in three months left, like, you know, I'm gonna come back in three months, and I need to spend these three months like getting myself back in shape, like making sure that I can come back and just be the person I wasthe. You know, a year ago, I need to like and I mean, obviously there's so many other things going on during those three months because you need to find, like,

the right child care. And so it's, you know, people say, like, Oh, you have three months off. It felt like so much more pressure toe, like, get back to normal quickly. Um, during that maternity leave.

Yeah. And do you feel like, if you could, you know, wave a magic wand and change any part about that experience? What would you have changed,

probably having more time. But, you know, again, like you're in a fast paced environment and companies change and rolls change. And you know, your team changes and you can't take that time. You know, even if financially you can. It's like you feel like for the sake of your career, you have to get back. You have to be back in the game and you can't, you know, take more time than that. But yeah, I mean, in hindsight, like, I would have loved

more time. And would you have taken more time Now the f more experience? Where do you think even now, if it happened today,

I mean, I'd like to say yes, but I think the pressure is there like you. You know, you have quarterly numbers that need to be head, and you want that next promotion and things like that. And maybe that's just me. Like having that sort of like internal pressure. Um, but if I guess I was being honest, like, I might not take more time. Now,

do you think there are aspects that make someone great sales person and then he said, you know, it can work against you as a leader. Do you think there are aspects that can make you a great salesperson or great business leader that can work against you as a parent?

I mean, yeah, like I mean, because to be the best, like you can't do everything you know, And I I guess I say yes and no. Like, yes, from the perspective. Ah, there was definitely times especially like getting promoted to an executive team where she's, like, there's that much more pressure. There is that much more responsibility that, like, I let some certain things slide with my kids and things that I maybe shouldn't like things that seem small in the moment. Um but at the same time,

not that many like I do, you know that this is what I tell young women today is like, You can't have it all like you can't have, you know, tons of hobbies and friends, and you know all this stuff, But you can work and be a really good mom. And I felt like I've been able to do that. And luckily, I've worked for companies to value that and who value taking time off. And you know, I haven't had managers that have, like, email me all weekend, things like that. So that's been really good.

A's really smart psychologist, she just wrote something I was reading, that friendships are based on three things. The 1st 2 things being proximity and unintended or unexpected moments of crossing paths. And it, you know, it made me think that it's choosing the neighborhood you live in feels so key for, especially in San Francisco, where it's very transient. People are moving and leave like, you know, I'm sure you and Trevor do this to where it's like every three months there's a going away party for somebody like, No, they're leaving. And it is I have found that having being in a neighborhood where you run into friends, it's like this gambling like dopamine release. You just g o out your front door and you don't know who you're gonna run into it so powerful. It's so um like every time I go to neighbors, I'm like, I wonder

if Trevor's kind of but it's also you mean you. I think you're a good example of this. Like I've been to other parks in the city was like all the parents are on their own little islands on their phone with their kids. And when the time we met you at the bar, you were like talking to everyone your life. Like it was this guy, like he's already made friends with 10 people at the playground, but it's like it's so it's not just the place where you live. I think you have to make yourself vulnerable on, like, introduce yourself to people. Um And so that was super helpful to meet you that

way wildly over confident that people like me if I just walk up to them randomly. Um, So tell me. Tell me about the contrast between startups and bigger companies. And you've worked for publicly traded companies of Hominy Hominy employees like 4002. How big was rainforest when you joined?

Um, Rainforest was, like, 70 when I joined, and I think it's over 100 or

something now. And Zenefits was how

many people? Um, yeah, got up to, like, 1500.

Yeah. So you've seen everything? Yeah. Okay. So walk me through that. The differences for someone that's never worked in an a startup that you might be back in Dallas and works at, you know, works at a big company and thinks, man, I really want to join a start up. That sounds so cool. What is it like being in a startup and being an executive one within a story?

Yeah, I think when I had worked for a big company, the thing that got frustrating to me towards the end was just the lack of ability to, like, make decisions. And it felt like everything was already figured out. And your job is to just like, you know, execute on it. And, you know, you had ideas of, like what? We could do this better. Um, I think, you know,

be careful what you wish for, because once you go to a start of nothing's figured out and sometimes you wish, like, you know, we don't have this system in place or, you know, you're doing things that seem so trivial or you just really have to take the ownership. And that took me a long time to figure out coming from a big company to small companies is like, you just need to be the one to make things happen. And that's how you can differentiate yourself once you get to a start up, is like you see a problem and you actually just go to solve

it. Yeah, it's It is. It's so interesting because it could be 70 people and you think that it's, you know, the OK 70 people, That's I mean, it's you think like a football team, 50 people and like there's only so many people on on the field at one time. But they have everything figured out, and and for many people, that sports team is their only example of a small number of people working towards a goal together. And then you you join a start events like, Yeah, there are 70 people, but it's not a game that has rules and goalposts and and clear outlines of what it's like you're making of the game, making up the rules, making up the roles, making up the strategy all at once.

And you have the clock and you're working against

the clock because you have

to, like, figure this out

quickly, right, And you have Yeah, it's it is what is the good and so talked me a little bit. Talk to me a little bit more about the good and the bad. Yeah, if you get to make change. But But then maybe a life experience that is kind of singed in your brain. What that transition is like,

Yeah. I mean, I think it's when you work for bigger companies, you have the luxury of making changes slowly and methodically and understanding. Okay, we're going to make We're gonna twist this one day i'il. And then in three months from now, we'll see the impact that that change made. And then if it didn't make a change, will course correct will make another change. Whereas most of the startups I've worked for it's like, Okay, we need to make these 10 changes right now and that some, you know, some cos it's been like, you know, some people have raised their hand,

had been like, Okay, we're making five changes right now. Like, how are we gonna tell what's working and what's not and what we've dialed into hard and what we have it. But it's it's started the cult, the paces so fast you don't have the luxury of doing that. And so it's Maur. Yes, you need to look at data, but it's a lot of like intuition, and it's a lot of like, Okay, we're just We're gonna do this and we're going to make a change in 20 days if it doesn't work for 10 days, if it doesn't work and I think it's the time horizon

is so different. What are some of this? You know, Cardinal sends that someone can make a mistake in that type of environment, either individually or company wide Where the things that you yeah, I really have to avoid in that type of dynamic.

Well, one of the things and I'm not an expert on this, but Fred, our CEO it Rain Forest had told me this once, and it made a lot of sense is you need to think about the magnitude of the decision that you're making. Is it a decision that can like potentially, like, really impact the company? And if so, like those air, the decisions you need to be really smart about and those are the ones you need to like, spend a lot of time on and make sure you get right war. Is it a decision that isn't, You know, it's not like a make or break decision It's a smaller decision. So I think it's really critical when you're making so many decisions so quickly tow like peace it apart and figure out the magnitude of that particular

decision, right? It's a one way door. You spend a lot more time. It's two way. Don't just trying out back. Yeah, yeah, in a big company. It could be that that usually doesn't fly because you have to put so much social capital even into some smaller decisions, because you have to collaborate with maybe 10 different stakeholders from 10 different parts of the company. And so it really reinforces. All right, You can get like, three things done this year. So you you're super mindful of those three, and that's that can be perfectly appropriate for a large company.

But in a small one and it started. It's like, try three things this week. Um, yeah, that is a huge shift. What has? And and then I imagine also the time. So just to underscore what he had said a few minutes ago, you worked every day last year like does that include Thanksgiving

E? Just check again, or e Um, yeah, Maybe this is just you know it. Yeah. I mean, I don't know if it's me or if it's just moving, you know, being on an executive team and feeling like there's people that you're responsible for and what not. Um, but I think it's it's hard to disconnect for me sometimes.

Is that different for when you were at Ah, you know, the 2000 person publicly traded

company? Yeah, it's a hard comparison, because when I was at those bigger cos I was more like an individual contributor or like, you know, less senior rules, I think it's I think it's less a function of the size company and Maur, probably of like where you are in the company.

I'm I would imagine. It's also it's also, uh, the stage of the company to maybe not the size but this state stage. Yeah, because it's, you know, my experience of big companies. It's like people are gone by 4 30 Yeah, yeah, Weekend started Thursday night. Okay, so last question I have for you, Anna, is, um what is what is something you think a lot about? But you rarely ever get a chance to talk about.

I mean, I heard this podcast like, I don't know a couple weeks ago talking about nature and the impact on our health and well being. And I know it's true for me. Like when I get outside and when I go and I take a walk or a run. And before I had my kids, I used to love to, like, hike all over Moran and I'd come back, and I just feel like so clearheaded and so refreshed. And so it's like this connect connection between your well being and being out in nature and not only your mental well being, but also your physical well being and how like breathing different plants affect your microbiome. And I think about it with my kids is like and living in a city and living and, you know, just this, like constant back and forth office school home. Like how doe I expose them to nature more.

And how do I expose myself to nature more as a way of not only relaxing but also staying really healthy? Um, so that's something I've been thinking about a lot the past few weeks and like given that the pace is so crazy and that we're trying to fit so much into the day. What are those small experiences? You know, 15 minutes, 10 minutes, that I could get myself in my family to give us the benefits of that.

Yeah. What are some that have come to mind? Even you might have acted on, But in our

year. Yeah, well, this morning I took him over Thio Land's End Trail, which was beautiful, but not a great place for a three year old because I realized that there's cliffs, right constantly running after her. Ah, but that's one of them, even, just like sitting in the back yard and like, taking their shoes off, you know, not being super scared about dirt and things like that. Um, you know, we live near Twin Peaks,

so hiking up that and there's, like, beautiful wildflowers, like there's really little things that are like, we're so lucky to live in a city that has all these things right in your backyard. Um, you know, I guess I think Maur more about it with people that don't have access, you know, to what we have here. But, you know, we're really fortunate to have these things so close.

Yeah, I remember hearing a, uh, psychological research on the impact positive impacts of just even posters of trees and presents. Wow! And and it's Yeah, it here in San Francisco, you can you can get into the real thing like there's so many cool parks, right? No, throughout the city. Um, but he had growing up in Dallas. It's concrete everywhere, but it is. That's a really good one. I think that's I I imagine. I bet you're totally right that there's there's a cost that we don't fully understand to a lack of nature.

Yeah, and I think you know, it's some people. It's like, Oh, well, I can just, like, go up to Tahoe for the weekend Or, you know, when once you become, you know, a parent and you're you know you're working a lot of urine executive. Some of those things are impossible within a timeframe. So again, it's like finding those really small opportunities to be able to do that. I think it's really

important, right? Right. It's growing up. People would always head to the lake, and it's obvious that it's ah you know it's gonna be cooler todo it's water in the heat of a Texas summer. But I think there's something going on within our DNA toe where is just, like, get to nature and something you can certainly take for granted you in your career when you feel like it is, it's a compromise for productivity. Yeah, like you sleep so easily, could be just compromising. And And we all know what happens if you just compromised that too many too many days in a row. All right, well, Hanna,

thank you so much for joining before this. This episode I really love the perspective of of team member within a start up rather than just, you know, the founder perspectives that I've been chatting with and as well as a perspective of being a mom, being an executive high powered executive in these really high flying companies. And I know that you're smiling, but, I mean, there's some of the most impressive companies in the last 10 years in the world, so it really is. It's really cool toe. Be able to get a sense for that perspective, and there's so much we didn't talk about. But hopefully have you on, especially since your neighbor have you back on chat. More

about it. Yeah, thank you so much. And thanks for talking about what's going on below the line because I don't think many people. D'oh! And I love hearing about it.

Oh, thanks so much. All right, Until next time. Thanks a friend's and listeners, I hope you enjoyed today's episode. If you want to hear more of these types of conversations, go over to your favorite podcast, app and hit, subscribe or leave us a review. Fitter, bad. We love hearing from people that that appreciate this type of conversation and want more of it. You can also follow us on Twitter at Go below the line. Well, let's see in our Twitter bio our email address for you to shoot us a note on any suggestions of guests or topics that we should cover. We read every single one, so thank you for those that are already sent Those in. That's it for us today.