trying to spend a lot of time on the problem solving, like building character, giving kids like offensive experiences now only in school but outside in the world. And really just the creed in school. The kids love and I think that that's just such an important piece. It's not procedural or, you know, based on some tired dogma of the past, like it's really just a four stinking school that knows that Children that are engaged in learning ins are able to work elaborately, and teams and work for strategic purposes like tend to be happiest.

Hi, guys, welcome back to beyond High Street David Schwab with you Hope everyone's having a great day in a great week. Today we cooked. Josh Don Josh is the co founder of a school in Los Angeles called Ad Astra at Astra. Me in Latin is to the stars. He co founded the school five years ago with Elon Musk, and the school is located on the Space X campus. 50 kids ages 8 to 14. What they're doing to disrupt the education education system is really mind blowing, focusing on problem solving, building character, forward thinking, giving Children of voice in the ability to reason, and, in his words, it's magical.

Tow watch. We even take a 30,000 foot look at how he envisions changing the entire U. S. Education system and a new technology platform and idea and programming that they've created and will be rolling out shortly, hopefully to help millions of Children now and in the future. On the conversation started when he went to Oxford and High School coming out of Columbus and the Junior Scholars program 6 to 8 weeks as a 16 17 year old on campus to toe learn about the future and somewhere to many others that we have on the pot the memory of certain professors on campus in Miami that helped guide them, Maybe change a major or put them in the right direction. That set them up for success. Really impressive. For Josh, it's Peter Schuler and the switch and the shift from the Business School to Philosophy and American Studies, one of the statements and phrases that he said that I wrote down and I will use now for myself, personally, professionally, that I've really liked his words to live by a sense of possibility. If you could just think about that and how it pertains to what you do every day.

I think it's uplifting for all. I hope everyone enjoys the conversation with Josh. What he's built is really impressive on, hopefully helpful for students everywhere. Thanks.

I grew up in a household of the highest state. Alums might play baseball there. My mom, I grew up in Pittsburgh with once Ohio State, and they met at the golf outing that my dad one My mom was selling beverages on the course and they hit it off. So little High State was like, you know, very much part of my childhood going to every Michigan State game, a TTE that time ending in like tears in agony because we're lose every year doing to John Cooper era. But then, for my, for me, like Miami was really just, you know at the time it was like, Really, I've stayed in Miami of the two state schools that seemed like the best options, and I spent my guess after my junior year of high school,

this like kind of nerdy program called junior Scholars and Miami and took two courses. The philosophy course in American history course I'm on campus for like six weeks. So I had credit for the school, and part of the bargain was like, If you have, like, a 30 or or higher, you'll get accepted automatically sewn into my senior year knowing that I was accepted. And I think sort of my ambition at the time was not toe like apply widely elsewhere, knowing that I was already accepted. So I just I think back my senior year, and I sort of knew like I'd be starting in the Fall 1004. Ah, in Oxford. Um,

yeah, and why? Why, junior scholars back then, was that a already your mind? Almost the means to the end of that would get you into Miami or where you were you that kid in high school that, uh, either from studying or learning or, um or you want to just get away home from home for six weeks. But kind of why, then that's a young age when there's a lot of kids that either mowing lawns or lifeguarding or hitting the beach in the summer.

Yeah, I think I just I think I wanted to get out of some level of work And I think you know, I'm sure it was sold to Mars. Listen, like you avoided the entire application process and all of the anxiety that goes with it. If you just, you know, worked really hard for it. Maybe was eight weeks, 663 weeks at Oxford. So, um, I think, like, maybe like high school guidance counselor had brought it up and there was interested in the school. And then, you know,

then you have to like to select courses. And then you took a 300 level philosophy class with Peter M. Schuler, who became actually, like one of my favorite professors on campus when I attended school there. But, you know, kind of a crazy philosophy class and basically the first day, he told us, like basically, just adjust your opinion, it doesn't matter. And you really like around a lot of kids the wrong way. I think, like 54 other kids and scholars like, drop the class immediately like first day.

Still, by the end, it was like three kids in there. But, you know, I think it was just one of those things. Like I felt like in high school, I never took it as seriously as I need you to. I knew that I was, you know, likely to get into Miami on my own but would not hurt Thio. You have spent some time like taking some courses and having the cup I got plus with a P stuff you can start, you know, as a freshman, but really is like a sophomore. If you did it thoughtfully. So it was more practical than anything. And probably some level like one Insp little wait, you know, working like long at worst GMO And while on their pain mailboxes or whatever else we all do to make money at

that age. Yep. And then you're on campus and you stay true to the philosophy Professor and Major, I think. And when you were what were you like a student was ITM or you're a book I or you worm or out socially or in clubs? What was college like?

Yeah, I think you know one of the things. That's that's some sense that the call is it gonna hire kids in the Preemies Griffin Cole basis that now you just know so many people at school. And it's not like I have, Ah, youngest brother's freshman. Just stretch when you see a way. You know, when people are coming all over California, really all over the world to go to U. C L. A. And Miami, you know, especially 1004 2008. You know, a lot of kids from Columbus Cincinnati gets in Cleveland surrounding areas.

So I just knew so many people that in a lot of ways it felt like an extension of high school that first year in my room, you know, it inadvisable to do but room with my best friend, you know, and, uh, had one other best friends, just as it turned out down the hole. So I think for me it was just like a lot of reading that I was doing that just, like was not related to coursework. And I initially, as you know, I can't really explain the decision now. Knowing who I am been a clear sense, but you signed up to be a business major and really artfully in a lot of ways and strategically avoided all of the prerequisite classes and those that did take I didn't fit particularly well, and it was pretty clear to me,

I would say maybe, like for semester sophomore year that I just, like, detested the education. And I was not because of pressure Good or the kids weren't smart. It was just that I was not putting much of myself into what I was doing. So, um, that party a lot like I mean, not as to say I don't want fried or anything like that, but certainly, you know, in our dorms and, you know, go in the house parties and that sort of thing like, yeah,

it became, um, not a particularly academic exercise for me the 1st 2 years until I kind of realized like what I wanted to do. And that's when I was at the urging of, ah, girlfriends at the time. Like you, Josh, like, you're not clearly, like, not as happy as you need to be like you should go to this major fair and reconsider. So I met a Peter M. Schuller Has it turned out at the major fair and, ah, American history professor really likes.

So I switched American studies and philosophy double major and and I had a significantly better experience. But from that point on, including going to Luxembourg my for the first semester junior year, which is pretty, pretty great.

And everyone I did not. I joined a fraternity and live the fraternity house scene all through school, and and was a Miami merger and married my girlfriend from school. And so we stayed in Oxford. But every single person I have talked Thio, uh, that did Luxenberg or now even more recently, you could do a lot of other things besides Luxenberg never regret it and feel like just the cultural experience and learning from others has been, ah, lifelong of value.

Yeah. I mean, I think it's some ways like the e that the program was really, really focused on. Like, you know, kids staying in Luxembourg Is that going to Belgium on the weekends, like staying sort of local. And, of course, like for many kids were there for the first time. Never been to Europe, but they're not going to stay. You do not go to Brussels for the weekend like you're gonna goto cells. Burt, you're gonna go to Venice like you're gonna fly Thio London. So you know what a lot of ways,

Thea, the structure of the program was almost hot style do travel, which, um, almost make made it a better experience than that. Like getting a class. Your classmates are like Friday. Maybe it's like, you know, wanted to do o'clock PM, and then you have to be back in class on Monday and all the classes they take attendance. So you really had to be creative with flights and like when you would miss class and everything else. So I mean you now thinking back on it the idea that people would get a euro pass and then you get the class of 2 p.m. Friday You're different. Entre Luxembourg. It's on exactly Grand Central. You have to find a way to get to the Luxembourg City.

From that point, you're taking the train, you know, all the way out to Berlin, like and becoming getting back after a weekend of just total madness. You know, checking out the city didn't seeing all the sights and drinking all the beers and then, you know, getting back on the train and being ready for class on Monday like it's pretty crazy. But, you know, I think under those conditions and miss trains and miss connections and all that. You know, you end up having like, a really special time, so I'd like it back on those years.

Really? Finally, we live with, like, a baker. Uh, his ah, like moniker is the crazy baker and e. Uh, I mean, there's no other way to say it like he was an apple, like, you know, he was just, like, not a very nice person.

And, um, you know, but But then again, like the people that you lived with, you have a great time. Now he's They would call us boy collectively. So the three of us were living there. He had three boys and his wife would just call us Boy Boy, one boy, Tsuboi three. And the first night, You know, there. Tell us what this is. The first night of the host families were supposed to give you these really nice,

like meals, you know, kind of come to the country meal and we're hearing these stories of, like, you know, if the past of kids we've had a gourmet dining or the family really puts a lot of heart and soul into it, I think that was experience for most. And we're like Oh, my gosh, this is a baker like this is going to be like the looks, like, really great. I can't imagine what kind of takes the things he's gonna bake and we show up, and it's, Ah, dinner of cold

bread and butter. Oh,

my God. And, you know, we've been course traveling all day, and now it's hard. It's not found entitled in this situation. But, you know, you go down to the baker, you see the magnificent kicks this guy was capable of producing, and then for him, it was I think an economic decision to host us in didn't treat it as anything more than that. Seven. I wanted a lot of good, a lot of good good members there, and certainly some flights with a local gang that was not happy with being there and some other things like that, But yeah, very memorable, I'd say.

Yeah. And so what was it that either part of that experience or American studies in philosophy? Where was the light bulb that said, You know what? I'm going to go teach, um, or helped by the future youth of this country. Where is there a moment when something clicked there.

Yeah, I think so. It's 1008 when I was graduating, you know, the economy was really starting to show signs of recession. And, you know, at the time, like law school was a diminishing prospect, least in my mind. And I think really wise one to avoid, especially given, you know, where I would have been financially on situation. Probably paying, you know, at 30 plus $1000 a year to get,

you know, a lot of your from, like, a pretty average institution. All things considered. So, um, this, like, idea of teach for America. There's a lot of recruiting going on a campus at the time, and and part of the allure was that it was really competitive. So I worked at the art in Architectural Library on Sundays and I just never sitting there looking the application and just feeling like I got to come up with, you know, something really compelling here because I know that the first round of Miami applicants, not a single person,

was accepted. And part of that was, you know, the interview was off campus and was that, you see, and it was like pouring down rain. What our time parking there were late and frazzled and all that. So I was in The second round is sort of new, and you come up with something special. So, you know, I in the final interview, I borrowed my friends suit, which was ill fitting. And, you know,

I've been up all night already. My like a lesson plan. And you seem like a five minute like dem a lesson. And I just remember, you know, walking to the bathroom just basic himself, a pep talk, like you gotta just you know, you got to be great right here. You gotta make them believe, you know that you really want it. And I think at that point like rooms, you're accepted and you kind of realized like what? You know what it entails. You're just sort of You just deduced by, like,

all of the dysfunction that is is in our education system and at a time, like you know, so little. And you, you know, you tell people you're deputy Erica. I was doing it in Las Vegas, which sounded really cool. Obviously, I, you know, loved has spending this last months of school knowing that I was doing the next year and knowing that I was like moving across the country and all. But I didn't really know how much I would love education and be totally frustrated all the time with it as well, until I taught to sort of that first day. And that's when you know you're in front of 33 kids and you've got six hours to fill. And you know,

the normal playbook is just not gonna be good enough. So, um, so that yeah, it came. It became something that I was really proud to be accepted into. And then once it's just you in front of the kids like it's just sort of a moral imperative. Just figure stuff out. Yeah, One

of the first line you said in that whole thing to me was really interesting. Of the allure of the competition. It sounded like there was something in there that, um, fired you up or that forced you not forced you. But, um, that was part of the excitement for you and a challenge for you that you were in an environment that was going to be competitive to get something and maybe part of your d n a of how you think personally and maybe also how you teach and educate now, too.

Yeah, I think I think that that's that's totally true. And I think you at Miami you have, you know, it means it's a pretty affluent student body. All things considered, I mean, for the most part. And I think that a lot of kids going to school knowing that they are on, like, the medical track or the dental school track or, you know, they wanted to finance like, you know, they have really clear idea, at least in theory of like what they want to do. And they're,

like, sort of executing that game plan and for me, Um, I have, like, a competitive streak in that. I guess I have a bit of a killer instinct when it comes to like something I think I'm good at, and I wanted to always be better. So sense of possibility has always been one of my strong suits, and I felt like I was never gonna job Goldman Sachs like I wasn't, you know, certainly going to medical school. I need it in law school. I mean, I'm not talking about Harvard law here, like we were talking on something much less prestigious and also,

you know, you know, really expensive. So I think that, like, wow, in a lot of ways, taking the really great experience that it may be my last two years where I was doing really well and feeling great about what I was learning to be able to in some ways, like quite the slate clean and like, you know, to be accepted something like Teach for America, where people who had worked in all honesty far harder than I did during college and, you know, probably a lot of ways. Take it more seriously. It felt like,

Ah, and I felt like a redeeming thing in some ways to meet like wow, like, I think I would be good at this. And I think if I can interview well and make the case that I would be one of the best people to do this, that I might be sort of on the right track in a way that I was unnecessarily um, in other ways. I mean, there's not, like a clear path from philosophy major to something else, Nor, you know, American history, Major So, um so, yeah, I think that that's really true about who I am

and the that part of the who You are your DNA, in the sense of possibility to to life now at Astro School. Talk about that a little bit about the students, the philosophy kind of why he was founded and in the direction of what you're building.

Yes. I mean, I spent four years in Las Vegas to teach for America 1st 3 years teaching fifth grade like my first class had something like 30 for students. Ah, and by the end of the year, I had 33 students, but about 19 of those kids were new students or income over the course of the year. So really transient time to be in Las Vegas, especially with the downturn and, ah, like last Chance Saloon for a lot of families. And I think, you know, it's just I don't a little bit of work in college on Over the Rhine and and Hamilton, a CZ well is like somewhere with the local food movement in Butler County. So I had some familiarity with some of looks for the larger trends we're going on. But they all sort of merged in Las Vegas at that time.

And you just had a lot of families that, um, you know, wanting the best for their Children were absolutely, like, attentive to the problems that they were facing. But, you know, economically and financially just could not No, could not find stability in terms of a living situation. So, um, so I spent three years in fifth grade. My fourth year, I taught the gifted program at my place in school into others, and then the girl I'd imagine teach for America.

Actually, we started dating around that time, and it was quite clear that she was not moving a lot of a guest s o. I was extraordinarily fearful living in Los Angeles. I mean, I grew up in Columbus, You know, the idea of moving to L. A. When you grow up, I guess at least it for where I grew up, it felt like more exotic. In some ways, I'm going to Casablanca or something like that. Like it just felt like a place that culturally is at odds with how I was raised And like, of course,

the traffic and I talked myself into the small again. I was just downright terrified of the idea of moving to L. A. So, uh, I I ended up interviewing, um at a school called Merman School for highly gifted Children. I'm a hall and Dr it's like, really fancy school, like a lot of celebrities and their kids there. And it has this really sexy name like Merman School for highly gifted Children. So I ended up getting a job there, and I spent two years there and I met you on my second year and we had a couple conversations and really, at the end, it was, you know,

what do you think about creating something that's better than this school? And of course I said yes. And what has become of that intro conversation is a school of about 50 kids that's located on Space Texas campus and between the ages of eight and 14 and trying to spend a lot of time on problem solving. Um, like building character, giving kids like offensive experiences now only in school but outside in the world, and really just create in school. The kids love and I think that that's just such an important piece. It's not procedural or, you know, based on some tired dogma of the past, like it's really just a Ford thinking school that knows that Children that are engaged in learning and are able to work elaborately and teams and work for strategic purposes like tends to be happiest. So we have been very fortunate to have this opportunity. And now, looking back, I mean, this is our fifth year. It seems kind of wild to think about, you know, from Teach for America all the way to this point here in 10 years.

So the the easy question and then the harder question, the easier question is given example of maybe a ah problem solving something that an eight year old you're challenging them with. I've got an eight year old, 8 11 15 year old and there in a public school in Arlington, Virginia, and it's a great public school. But that's it's book learning, and you're learning about American history or state history, and you're going through your math and your your spelling in your grammar. So something that's that is different from what that is from a rural practical what on eight year old may be going through for you.

Sure. So I mean, I think that the, you know, were you released from first principles, like what is sort of the purpose of school. And I feel like at least from my experience, the things that remember from school to be, uh, tend to be like the, you know, the institutional events that the school would put on the social things that happened extracurricular stuff. It's sports and all that. And really, it's quite rare that I remember what actually took place in the club rooms. I mean, where most of the time was really spent.

So if you take the example of like, let's say that give you a catalogue of, like, 60 different works of art and artifacts overtime, you know, from all over the world. And each of those different works has a unique demand from 10 different cities around the world. So say, like L a stop hollow Mexico City Lunden. No law against Nigeria. Extra have 10 different cities. You got 60 different works that are you know what the market is for each of those different cities. The idea would be four different teams that are competing to bid on these different works of art and live and silent auctions, and you're trying to put together a cohesive collection that you could take on the road and make the most profit. Bring the most attendance, and it obstinately put together some of the best marketing plan on exhibition humanly possible.

So, like this is the product design called Lama just in from Los Angeles Museum of Art. And really, the idea is that kids, not only are you like learning about the different works of art dealing with the ethical issues that are like that are involved as well. I mean, Caravaggio murdered someone like, Are you comfortable having his work is part of your exhibition? What about Queen Nefertiti statute, like the Germans stole it from the Egyptians and it's been to the Noise museum ever since. Like, are you comfortable writing that piece of ardent station on exhibition knowing that there, you know, there's a lot of there's a huge dispute over its ownership. So, um,

having kids you know at at the age of eight and older, go through simulation in teams working collaboratively, having to figure out what their plan is like. Maybe you really want starry night. You've done the math. You figure that, you know, over these, let's say, you know, we do like 10 years off of the art exhibition. You spend a year in each of the 10. You know, each of the city's what cities you're going to go to work. You make the most money. If this team does that,

how does that affect us? What if you lose starry night in the auction like, what's your sort of backup plan? So having to manage all those different pieces of the project? Uh, it's just quite a magical what you get from the kids and you haven't the Constitution's going on all hours of the night. You got kids lunch conversations are about who did want it, how much it went for You make it all publicly available, so kids are always looking spreadsheets and figure out the fun and chills an airplane not only sort of their hand every else's hand as well. Um, it's just like, you know, that's an example of a project that is not only memorable, but but one that brings out through the best of what we want you to be doing in school

Yeah, It's almost like the Oxford ownership classes that one would take in a traditional, I guess. Setting where it bring you from what you described. You learn history. You you may learn grammar. You're learning negotiations. And, Mac, you're learning geography. You're just not learning them individually or literally. You're learning them as part of a group project,

right? And I think that, like, you know, in the group project, I think Project and group project together are really poorly done in most schools. And I think you know the most in love, anything from these working like a really great team, you know, to be able to lead an exceptional team of educators here is is one of the best things that I've experienced in my life. And I want to give kids that experience at an age where there, you know, like working in a high functioning team and with high expectations with a strategic element, like there's there's nothing quite like it. And I'm one of the amazing things Um, that I really loved to do was have people visit the school, have them come during this classical synthesis.

So we have two classes, um, at the school that all kids take that are truly multidisciplinary and that there's no specific concept that is required to be covered. It's just it's really just based on problem solving. So whatever problems seems most compelling. That's the problem is we're working on for that week. Or that those set of weeks, so have people visit the school, and I can talk t to you and share with you. Sort of like the idea of the project. And all around you kids are buzzing back and forth, going from room to room, negotiating, coming up with Daniels and plans coming up with all sorts of contingencies. It's it's pretty magical to watch, and and that's,

I think, the true rule of 21st century educators being able to walk out of a room and have the kids, you know, managing their own learning and moving in the direction that give that experience both. You know, a meaning and ah and also something it will continue to draw on folks or the rest of your rest of your educational career and hopefully your life. You're looking back on that moment where you know, lost Mona Lisa and that devastating like last minute silent auction are you know, you put together the most amazing market plan, then you get real feedback from people in the field who are telling you, you know, listen, like, this is really well done. But like, you know,

you did you consider this sort of thing? So come on, bring in the real world, into the school for kids young and then as they get older, kind of letting them move out into the real world.

It's a profound statement of being able to walk out of a room and having students and Children being able to manage their own learning. That's yeah, that's Ah, free strong. So that that was more of the easier question. The harder question is, so you're doing it for 50 students 8 to 14 on the Space X campus is Does this work? Can this model work for the public school system?

I don't think that you can take ad Astra wholesale, of course, but I do think there are a few a few things that that won't work well in any school based on my experience. And the first thing is that you've got to give kids choice is between seemingly equivalent options. And what I mean by that is, you know, rather, I remember like when as a kid, you doing persuasive writing. It's like you're kind of getting into sort of argumentation and and all of that and really, it's like should there be school uniforms or no school uniforms like that sort of thing? What I'm interested in is giving kids, you know, a starting place, you know, free five, even seven seemingly equivalent options that quantitative and qualitative elements.

So I guess it's something to you, like, you know, generally speaking, should teachers, firefighters, soldiers, the mayor? Um, no, I don't have teachers. Teachers be paid more money relative to one another. Like if you could assign 1 to $5 not instilling of these five public employees, how would you rate how much issued overloads relative to one another? And you've given this purposely ambiguous question and have them reason like, sort of like Well,

I think in general mayor should pay the most because of their responsibility and someone I say that that's ridiculous. Teachers have much larger intact or could potentially larger impact, I think teachers who pay the most and then some kids as well. Like how effective is the teacher like? It is a great teacher. Is this like an average teacher or like not a very good teacher at all? Tell Mrs Malik, is the firefighter working in California the wildfires or someone who works in Alaska or whatever? Right. So you propose a question, and then you allow that conversation to build and you allow an expression of different opinions to build sort of, ah, sense of reasoning that can happen among the class. So, um, you know,

they start really basic like that. But then you can build a simulation where different teams are competing to pick the right fishing routes. That's catch different types of fish, knowing there's a quota. And if the quote is exceeded, that sniper fish is going to be downgraded in terms of its, ah, sustainable level. So maybe it starts at least concern. But you over fish for year one. In year two, it becomes, you know, um, frightened. And then you over fish again and you three it becomes,

um, you know, I don't know endangered or something like that and then ends an extinct in the wild. So sort of merging the capitalistic, market driven forces with something ethical pieces. I think it's something that schools should be doing from a very young age. S. O. I think one of the best ways to do this is just to justify the time in school to do multidisciplinary work, give kids problems, let them talk like, make decisions, let them compete. It's necessary. And, you know,

even if it's just sort of starts, is ah, quick activity In between, you know, math and social studies just give kids the opportunity to have their voices heard. And I feel like especially working in low income schools for seven years. You know a lot of students, particularly those that behind in math and literacy and who are spending their entire time trying to gear up for the tests that are, frankly above their their level. And it's not quite clear what exactly they measure. It's really rare that that kid has an opportunity to express their voice. So to the extent that we can do that in schools, having we've partnered with a company called Class Tojo, based in San Francisco, they're probably the largest educational platform that exists in the world to have something like 10 million on daily users around the world. So some of these ad Astra questions that I've created the called conundrums will be available starting in October for schools around the world and really just some of these basic questions to get hits, thinking and talking and then hoping to start building out questions that are more relevance of them that their teachers designed.

Thank you, Josh, for spending some time. Wow, talk about disruption, disruption of the education system, Paul for hopefully the betterment of all. How about that statement? You walk out of a room and let Children manage their own Learning that trust is profound, impressive and encouraging, encouraging for what he's building at Astra and hopefully encouraging. If we can ever get to that point in the public school system or even private school system to give more Children of voice and the ability to learn. I think what he's doing is really need and something that hopefully will continue to evolve for students everywhere really appreciated Josh, That's is that's great stuff. Thank you guys all for listening. Hope to see old skippers for a beer sometime this fall.