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How do you tell your investors you have cancer? - Michael FitzGerald (CEO of Submittable)

Crazy Wisdom podcast.

October 11

Here are the questions we discuss in this episode:

How do you tell your investors that you have "terminal" cancer? How do continue to run a company?

How do you find your north star either as an individual or for your company?

What is the difference between creativity in the business sense and in the artistic sense?


Find more on Michael here: https://twitter.com/M_A_FitzGerald

Find more on Submittable here: https://www.submittable.com/

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Welcome to the crazy wisdom podcast. This episode was quite a interesting one for me to want to do because it was a normal interview up until about 45 minutes in. And then my guest, Michael Fitzgerald, drops that he has terminal cancer, um, and had been diagnosed with this, said he had a certain amount of time to live, and then we were talking. After that, certain amount had had passed already. Eso it ended up being a lot longer than normal from a normal podcasts, but really, really, really interesting and hopefully valuable, particularly if you might be going through cancer. Or if you have had a loved one who is going through cancer at the end.

Michael, give some really important information for those people who are suffering from it. Ah, and this interview is definitely, definitely why I am really, really set on doing this podcast for a long time, Um, and getting this wisdom out because Michael is dealing with something that a lot of us will end up doing with, or we'll have family members who are dealing with, and it's really all, and it's important for us to work with this and understand that this this happens to a lot of people. You know, I'm I'm getting older and I'm not. I'm not old by any means the word, but I'm getting older, and it's obvious that life changes in life ends and eso it's personal for me toe work with these things as well.

And with that being said, I hope you enjoy this episode. If you do, please find us on iTunes and leave a review, Um, or just subscribe, and you can find me on Twitter at Stewart Allsup II. I'd love to hear what you think about this episode in any of the other episodes. I do hope you enjoy it. So welcome to the crazy wisdom podcast. My guest here today is Michael Fitzgerald is the Sea CEO and co founder of Submit a bill dot com, the world's leading cloud based application and submitted submission management platform. Their software is used by over 9000 publishers, including the L, A Times New Yorker, Harlock in M I T Tech Crunch,

NPR and Playboy on dhe. Submit. Herbal went through I see on there now based in Missoula, Montana, and they've been going around going at it for about 10 years. Welcome to show Michael. Really excited everyone.

2:38

Um, thanks. Good to be here. We started in Missoula. We had to watch the after after we'd been ramble.

2:45
How did Submittable founders pay for their business in the early days?

Submittable started around 2009 and for two years, before getting into Y Combinator, most of the founders had kept their day jobs while working on Submittable nights and weekend. Even though they already had customers and revenue, it was not yet enough to pay for the team.



Okay, so you guys had started the company you've been been going How long did you guys? Where you guys going Before you went to see?

2:52

Um, about two years. But they you know, none of us really quit our day jobs. Maybe one of us had quit our day jobs. And we were We had customers and revenue, but not No, not till, like, called a actual functioning company

3:9

and then on. And then you went through I C s. So this would have been about eight years ago. Correct? Yeah. So that was 1000

3:17

summer of 2012

3:18

summer

3:19

to the kind of girl

3:20

and that would that would have been, uh, right after Dropbox and Airbnb in those companies went there, right?

3:29

Yeah, pretty much. Instead, cart was in her class. Um, zap year was in our class. Ah, queen days. Um uh, rain forest. Que es? Um, there's some

3:46
How did Submittable change after getting into Y Combinator?

Y Combinator boosted Submittable's ambitious to be bold and to grow big. Michael and team were in their early 40s, and a YC they saw a lot of younger founders, hungry to win. They saw what they were really up against, something that was not obvious back in Missoula.



pretty big news out of our class. That's really cool. And what did y see you do for you guys in particular.

3:52

Well, we didn't really know what we're doing. You know, we, uh you know, there isn't sort of a startup culture Missoula. So we, um we didn't know we were doing. We were just trying to figure it out. And, um why see one? You know, I think if I look back on the beginning years, we're sort of in in reaction mode, like tryingto, um, keep it cheap and keep their,

you know, keep our expenses low and not die. And we got to Oh, I see. And we sort of reversed are inverse star ambitions to just be massive. You know, just be a big so don't be scared. Get bold go be something big. And, uh, that was the biggest sort of the rejiggering of our ambitions. Look, the best thing I like Combinator. Um, and also just getting a sense of what what we're up against, like,

Not necessarily that our covert was competitive. Like you're another submission imagining platforms. But just, you know, we were we were older were dramatically older than the rest of the um we're 40 in the early forties than most of the class with 23 year, you know, pretty much straight out of Stanford around my tea. And, um, it was good to be around people who you know who were so sort of bold and ambitious, and it made us think about what we're up against. Um, so yeah, it was great.

5:20

And that's right, my dear.

5:23

My co founders probably insulated opinion on it, but we didn't move from our families. Like we're all functioning adults with family, the mortgages, and we pick up and move to mountain view for

5:36

three months with your family. No. Uh,

5:42

no. They were here on DA. So it you know, it wasn't effortless. Um, and put strains and parts of Yeah, it's our daily.

5:55

And this is so interesting because you guys got such a unique story compared to the other, the otherwise see cos cause you and then you go back toe Montana on dhe, and you're you, uh, start this company here and how? And you said you had 100 employees now

6:10

have a great 109

6:12

109. Um, And when you got back from why, see, how many employees did you have?

6:17

Uh, four.

6:19

Four.

6:20

I mean, don't start minute up. There was three founders wanted, boy.

6:23

Yeah, four total.

6:25

But we did. We've got that to about 12 by the end, within, like, three months of my Combinator. Um and yeah,

6:34

and that's really interesting. So and then and then what has what has been the key takeaways You've learned from building a company of more than 50 people outside of Silicon Valley?

6:46
What did Michael FitzGerald learn about growing a company in Montana?

Early on, hiring was definitely not effortless and it took a particular kind of person to live in Missoula, MT. Ten, nevermind thirty years ago, it was a big commitment. Nowadays, it's gotten a lot easier.



Um, you know, hiring isn't isn't isn't effortless. Like, um, it you gotta find a particular kind of person that wants to live in the zoo in Montana. I don't know why anybody

6:58

doesn't want it, but

7:0

it's for a long time. You know, people have have preconceived notions. Ted Kaczynski.

7:7

You know, I'll like the

7:8

ridiculous media stuff, but, um, we're, like, conservative. Everyone thinks we're drunk people when our governors Democrat, uh, I mean, if you is one of the most labor friendly union friendly cities in the world, and, um so you know, people for them to move here, and it's getting easier. We now have sushi and hair custom crap, but, um,

10 years ago, our 30 years ago, Um, you know, it's a pretty it was it was a pretty big commitment to live someplace like here. They weren't jobs, weren't, um So where there wasn't a lot of stuff that you have Dixie's. He's hiring people, Um, especially expert sex, especially like cover level senior management type people. Um, we had to figure out a specific way of hiring them. And that took a while. Um, and the ones we figured it out. It it was It's been amazing.

8:11
What key breakthrough helped Submittable hire senior people to work in Missoula, Montana?

At first, Submittable was struggling to get talent to work in Missoula. They would find a lot of senior people who loved Montana and wanted the jobs, but would eventually be unable to take on them because of family commitments. It is, after all, hard to move your kids out of school, or find a matching job for your spouse.

Once Michael realized they needed to shift focus to people who already had a history in Montana and wanted to move back, hiring became easy.



And what was

8:12
What key breakthrough helped Submittable hire senior people to work in Missoula, Montana?

At first, Submittable was struggling to get talent to work in Missoula. They would find a lot of senior people who loved Montana and wanted the jobs, but would eventually be unable to take on them because of family commitments. It is, after all, hard to move your kids out of school, or find a matching job for your spouse.

Once Michael realized they needed to shift focus to people who already had a history in Montana and wanted to move back, hiring became easy.



the big lesson, but with

8:15
What key breakthrough helped Submittable hire senior people to work in Missoula, Montana?

At first, Submittable was struggling to get talent to work in Missoula. They would find a lot of senior people who loved Montana and wanted the jobs, but would eventually be unable to take on them because of family commitments. It is, after all, hard to move your kids out of school, or find a matching job for your spouse.

Once Michael realized they needed to shift focus to people who already had a history in Montana and wanted to move back, hiring became easy.



less in the

8:16
What key breakthrough helped Submittable hire senior people to work in Missoula, Montana?

At first, Submittable was struggling to get talent to work in Missoula. They would find a lot of senior people who loved Montana and wanted the jobs, but would eventually be unable to take on them because of family commitments. It is, after all, hard to move your kids out of school, or find a matching job for your spouse.

Once Michael realized they needed to shift focus to people who already had a history in Montana and wanted to move back, hiring became easy.



big one is so the primary problem hiring anybody over like 35 waas. And we were making offers, and we get people fly him up and they love it. Everything was great. And then they go home to their status. And usually you marry somebody, your partner, somebody with with similar ambitions, right? So you might be an amazing marketing executive than your husband. You know, whatever. He's doctor, whatever he does. But they have the same. Um, they generally have a career,

right? So getting them to move to Montana like you can usually get somebody 90% of the way there. But then, when they got into the details, like can my cells quit his job. Can my kids you know, you could only hire him during the summer with your kids. We're gonna We're gonna have to leave schools. Um, that kind of stuff to started to trip us up, over and over again. We kept getting people all like almost there. And then when we found out, was we should focus on people who actually had a history with Montana. So we went and started looking at people who graduate from high school here. And then we look on linked in to see if so,

search, like then for high school Hell Gate High School. It's the local high school And then look and see Try to find people with director above titles and recap him and be like, Hey, you know, like, generally there, um, you know, they're 2025 years work experience and reach out to them and say, I have a job for you in your hometown and those have been much more successful. Um, we've got an amazing candidates from that are CMO with Disney for 25 years. 20 years and it can be student C. I. A is a swell. Then we have a BP from Oracle. We've hired a CTO

10:6

from Microsoft. So

10:7

once you find you know, you find your message, you find your your path and you can push push on the gas.

10:15

And that's where that's so interesting. Because it's like, uh, I find the thing I love about entrepreneurship and creating a company is that there are no rules to it. There might be principles to it, but there are no rules. Yeah, and so it's like you just you just have to figure it out for your specific case. And it's always so subjective, so defined, basically on on your particular case. And I love that length. Just find people who have lived in Montana before, and then it's super easy, because, I mean, I'm looking at the map right now of Missoula,

and Mr Let's seems to be a square right in the middle of four forests. Then there was a creep money and threw it as well. And I think I remember talking to a fly fishing guy that said that you can actually fly fish, um, on the river that goes right into town as well. Um, does

11:2
What are some activities available in Missoula, MT?

Montana is an outdoorsy state. You can surf and fly-fish in the middle of downtown Missoula, and you can go skiing just a short 15-mile drive away. A national forest is just 3 miles away from the @Submittable office. Elk graze around the neighborhood.



that look like fish? A black a block from her. You can serve to block from our Oscars. And there's skiing, By the way, the bird flies seven miles, but it's 15 miles and there's a national forest. The Bitterroot Ah National Forest is three miles from our office.

11:26

So, um,

11:28

you could literally be camping. Are you know, um, and we could see elk from

11:33

our There's

11:34

two mountains that are in the distance and during the season, you can see the out moving over onto the mountains and, like, we're definitely in it where it's a Montana company,

11:48

and that's okay. So I really want to talk to you about remote work. Before we started recording, you're talking days, but he only had about 3326 employees. Something around that were that were remote. Most of the people are are there in Montana, and that seems to be something you want to keep our as you're growing correct.

12:7
Is Submittable trying to be a remote-first company?

Michael and his business partners wanted to build Submittable as a kind of company they would want to work for, in Montana. Their goal was to create jobs for them and their kids, a company that would allow a career trajectory for people to stay and work from Montana, instead of going out of state. It has been that way since.



Yeah, Our original goal was you know, one of the things we were trying to do and we started was billed. My partners and I had worked it companies outside of Montana. I work for a company called Pro Clarity and Boys. Anything up a lot by Microsoft, and then I work for Microsoft. Um and, uh, and I've worked in San Francisco in the nineties. So my partner and Bruce, he had worked at Borland and also had a similar history. He had lived in California before Montana, and, um, we wanted to build a company that had the kind of jobs that we wanted, right?

So we wanted to build a 500 person company that kept the smartest kids here that allowed for career type trajectories that, um and that was our goal. It wasn't really started company. It wasn't. That was our goal. And, um, that that's billed sort of our North star to build a functioning company that, um, has great jobs. And

13:15

in my whole range.

13:16

Yeah, In my town. Yeah. Um, well, even the even the remote workers that we have, we didn't hire them because they were way hired them generally like over half of them are people who started here. Maybe they were right out of school, and we were the first job, and we let him keep the job when they moved. You know, they plan on moving for whatever reason, family reasons, but it wasn't. It wasn't like we're trying to create a remote workforce.

13:47

Um, and that's what is your what is your take on remote work? Whether four against or nuanced?

13:55

Um, you know, I've done it myself. So developers were Wait. Developers have a do over 20 years. So, um, it's great. I mean, it's hard to do people management from my point of view, you know, the challenges with senior like manager type people being remote, But, um, everyone figures it out. And, ah,

you know so much. Zoom slack. Like all these tools are basically built to fix her amount. Um, it's no coincidence that they're all blowing up right now, so I'm for it. Um, you know, I would. I define especially is like technical individual contributor rolls. Um, but But our goal is to build a company in Montana,

14:45

and that's really interesting, because I've heard in San Francisco a similar thing is happening. So it used to be the way in San Francisco that it wasn't even sent. San Francisco is in Silicon Valley. You grow to like 10,000 employees in Silicon Valley on, and then once you're past that 10,000 or what or whatever point high number. Then you go off and set off headquarters and other other countries and everything like that. Even within Silicon Valley, that's not changing to the point where maybe get to 400 employees. And then you start to build us excuse and other places. So it seemed, Yeah, that's what I love about what you guys. Because you guys just went You did that. But in Missoula? Um, yeah.

15:26

Um, I don't think Yeah. I mean, there's just certain positions you can't do until I'm balloting for, like, str Czar Most entry level positions that, you know, right out of college. John, you gotta pay people $100,000. I mean, I think Peter deals like call VC money is basically going to landlords and Google bad words, But, um, but, you know, they might as well write projector

15:54

like juice

15:55

the landlord,

15:56

But, uh, it

15:57

doesn't make sense, like it's great for fundraising. You know, these are all just in South Parker Sandal Road. And but it's other than that I don't just too many like lateral options. Like your developer. No one loyal. You know, there's no way to get legacy knowledge within a nap unless you get massive very quickly. And that's just not a model. I don't know. It's a very specific kind of model.

16:28

And I have important question. I want to ask you after this, but but did you guys raise money right after Y C?

16:35

We did. Yeah. We ready, uh, could drive 700,000

16:40

and then have you guys raise money? Since

16:43

we have, we were 17 really close to $10 million to be

16:47

cool,

16:48

you know, And that's that's in Another great thing is, um, demonstrating. You can do it here. You know, like I think

16:56

one

16:57

of things that love is when employees quit job, quit, quit to start their own company, right? Like I think, um, I think there's a lot of value and just people hanging it being gone, especially by somebody like myself with my co founders, who you know, I think we're pretty average people, and it's just you look at that person didn't go that it can do what I can. And we're seeing that now. We're seeing people start companies left and right, and I p you know, college towns basically places reason get being higher. Well, and, ah, um, I think raising capital was like the last thing that you couldn't do here. And now you can do it

17:44

and air you talking about specifically, people are now starting companies in Missoula or kind

17:49

of in the spa. Oh, yeah. Yeah. So if you miss you'll, I mean, we started. I don't remember any other. There was a company called Remote Scan that got bought by Dell, and that was four people. Um, and that was a cool. Those guys were amazing, but doesn't that there weren't really success stories right now. Technology came out of Bozeman. That was the 1st $1,000,000,000 company. But there's a funny story that when,

uh when the local paper wrote about sales right now, Technologies, um, they got bought by Oracle for, like, a 1.6 billion, I think the local paper said, you know, software concerned local cell for concern cells to Oracle for $1.6 million. It was sort of inconceivable that somebody was building a $1,000,000,000 company right in Montana and ah, and now there's, you know, it's just in the water, like clad off class past class past. They moved here they have a shoot there. I think there up there around 100 50.

But their goal of 200 employees in Missoula, Um, they have a high touch sort of sales process, you know, calling the other studios. And but it's not a sales that, like a commissioned A sales. I don't know the actual model, but it's not like they're selling enterprise software. They're trying to get you people like studios to use their software, right? And, uh, and so they couldn't afford to do that with in New York City. I mean, I I'm projecting here.

I have no idea why exactly they moved here. But this is my assumption. Is it? The job's there feeling here are sort of, um, sales entry level, uh, you know, awesome experience. Um, jobs. That was the original goal. I know they are hiring dealt developers here now, too, but none of that, like those jobs didn't exist at all five years ago.

And then there's companies that are starting here. Onyx maps, which raised $20 million Series B. I mean every day. Sorry, I might even be 23 but like Missoula, Montana, first money in $23 million

20:2

today. Did they go? So did they go to San Francisco to raise that money, or did they actually raise it all from where were they raising this money from

20:10

the government? I think Kristen made some adventures with the main investor and true ventures. Let our series they were getting you could get killed. Khan. Bali. I mean, true. I think one of their model is exclusively outside of Bali. Like I know they be invested. Minnesota. I think they have investments in Scandinavia. Um, they seem to have that with some component that is exclusively looking for things outside the valley.

20:40

Very interesting.

20:42

I mean, you just can't You can't do sales anymore. And in San Francisco, like you can't have, you know, low, um, base with the commission based sale. Because how do you pay someone 45 or $50,000 based in San Francisco like they're just could be homeless?

21:2

What? Uh, yeah, that sounds

21:8

so it's really been a ended up working out really well for us that we could go and get, um, uh, grow slowly enough, grow organically enough. And also just not be like 100% about the tack like, you know, we have a 30 person sales. Sales came and, um and that's, uh a lot of them have never done it before. So you know, there has to be a little bit longer learning curve on board anchor, and you just can't afford to do that in places like San Jose.

21:45

That's

21:46

right. I mean, they say the average deal the average deal sides for enterprise software in the Valley, you have to get Sam to an average uh um, average price of 20 K. Right? But you can't afford a sales person unless they can tell something worth

22:1

20 k and the only people and our people with experience.

22:6

The only people could do that, or people with experience and on and just, you know, the Web wants to be a sin and wide right. Like even if you're building sass, um, it wants to have as many customers as possible versus one specific $200,000 customer. We, um and so yeah, it's been really it's really played well, toe what we're hoping to d'oh!

22:38

And so now I want to take it back to something you said originally or in the in the 1st 15 minutes was the North Star for your company was to build a company in Montana in in a place where they create jobs for people from Montana. Andi What? How did his one, particularly an entrepreneur, find their North star?

23:0

Um, that's a great question, because it it it I don't know. And I struggle with us. I mean, um, you know, you look at, like, Tom's shoes that this issue company here, you know, these be corpse, and, um well, I mean, let's just roll it back to, like,

Facebook and Google. Don't be evil. Make everything more open. I mean, come on. Uh, Mark Zuckerberg, like most private mother background are, And he's in charge of our privacy or he's in charge

23:39

of like, his

23:40

business model is too big. People like give up their privacy, and, um, anyway, I'm being cynical right now. That's not. But I think about this, like, vision statements in these, and, you know, do we want to democratize mission management? Gonna democratized publishing, which it wasn't beginning. Sort of, um,

but mostly I want to create a company that, uh, has awesome employees that great like give people economy that gives people lives that they can feel secure with and have families. I mean, that, to me is the most gratifying, um, part about building a company. I mean, I like I like making users happy. And I like I love people having a better life, You know, something you make. But, um I don't know, I guess. What do you think?

24:36

I'm rambling. We'll know the North Star question. Yeah, Yeah, this is This is something I'm trying to come to terms with myself. So I'll just be honest, your ideal with, ah lot of chronic pain every day. And that is really difficult. And every time I get in a chronic pain loop, it's like it's all it starts to become kind of all about me, and I've become very like it, just like it's life sucks again in this kind of victim mentality. And so I've been working with Coach is essentially how to develop a North Star so that the pain just becomes small in comparison to this much larger thing that I'm that I'm working hard, and so it's actually very yeah, because I'm I worked with coach today, and the biggest thing that came up was devotion being of service to something larger to myself and ah,

And that service for me is I see a global contraction happening in the world. And, you know, I see rising nationalism arises A ll These kind of things that are gonna, um, kind of could be potentially dangerous. And so what I want to do is network the open minded people of the world in major urban centres together so that they can So that that Because before, when this nationalism, this tide of nationalism happened before, we didn't have the Internet, we didn't have this kind of global connection that we now have possible. And I feel that's the one thing that can kind of help us to prevent a world conflict is in. Ah, that's that's So now I'm seeing that of my North Star. And so now with the chronic pain, when I look at that and that's big and then I look att,

chronic pain, that small comparison to that so it's like, helps me gain perspective on on on what it is I need to be spared you and what it is that I need to be focused on. So that's but that's for my personal North star, which I guess could go into a company as well. But But, um, yeah, that's that's for me, for personally. So I'm really curious to hear other people. How did they find the North Star? And maybe, you know, this is a call for the audience. How do you find your North Star?

How maybe you could be shot. Um, let me know how you've done that. Um, yeah. Anything come up?

26:55

Sorry. That's really great. I mean, I totally agree that, like, something that makes it so that you can do incremental progress towards it. Um, I like 500 employees could count, right. Uh, but, um, my employees probably aren't, like, thrilled that that's our North star. Like they wanted, you know, they won't want a big vision statement and forced some of them do. I don't know, Um and i e really, my vision is that people get paid

27:24

on,

27:25

have great lives. Um, and you can't I mean, it sounds really trite or something compared to make the world a more open place. But I don't think it straight when you actually scratch below the surface like this is I sincerely want to create awesome jobs. And I'm not gonna take a business model that regard that pretends and everybody in the world giving up their privacy. Um, you know, a I feel like TechCrunch and through the hole entrepreneur caller cult of Monterey Sometimes, um, sort of facilitates the things that are just like, Look at, we work, right? Look at all this stuff. It's crazy. And like it's just focus.

I'm actually functioning businesses. Um, an awesome, But I don't know that's like such a dumbness. My note. Might our tires a functioning business functioning?

28:22

And And that's really interesting because that brings it back down to a just a normal, like, you know, giving people on opportunity to make money so that they can eat and provide for their family. That is like a hugely valuable service in for those 106 employees that you that you guys higher and like, uh, because that's the thing with Silicon Valley, it always you always have to go big on, and in that going big, it doesn't really matter. You make a little tiny change in one person's life. Um, but then But then, like what about, like this'd something I've learned over the past seven years is making a large change in an individual's life. In one individual's life is just a valuable um, you know it.

And then he gets into comparison. I don't even know if that's a good idea to compare this like one person. But if you know, like if somebody decided to make an intervention in a life in the in, a kid growing up in poverty on day made an intervention by working with that one kid for 23 hours a week to kind of instill some values as toe howto howto work in this world and kind of instilled those those things that are necessary in order to deal with people who do have money on dhe so that they can kind of see themselves entering that that realm and then pull themselves out like that is a huge service. But that is looked down on, and so it's not really even considered us like, Oh, but that's just such a small thing. But it's not. It's a huge thing, particularly if you don't if you don't localize yourself to this time. If you look inside of that person's life. And then if you make an intervention in their life of a significant intervention, their life, that also goes down to their Children, anybody they deal with. So it's like it's It's it. I love it. There was a cascading,

30:5

and that's right. If you save one person's life, you, you and that person has a family or supports their family. And she also influences, you know, 20 people around her. Um, it's and you do it in a deep way. It is. It's something that's not, um yeah, So, um, I don't know, You know, like, we're going big. We're just not We're I just don't need to have some fake certain vision statement to do it. I think my hope

30:42

is that's

30:43

cool. We're just building. Were just building something that people we know use and hopefully pay for, um, lady,

30:50

pay part. Pinch. Aah!

30:52

You know, like a real straightforward transaction like you need this, we want to build it for you and charge you this, and and ideally, everyone's pretty happy. Um, yeah.

31:5

So let's get into the product a little bit more. What do you guys do exactly?

31:10

Dismissible facilitates the ability to accept and review and make a decision on anything. So the original use case was publishers. Before we started the company, I was a novelist. I was paid the bills by writing code. But I, um, published a novel in 2007 and, um, the goal coming out of college. But I wanted to be a I want to be. You know, I envision myself sitting in my patient in writing novels. Uh, once I actually got some success with that, I had to sort of recalibrate. Namely,

publishing is under duress, you know, suddenly information everywhere. Only 24 hours in the day. How much? Yeah, people aren't reading as many books. I actually don't know if that's true, but, um, but publishing is under dress, right? And, uh, so going through the publishing process, I had submitted my manuscript agents to magazines.

Big publishers and I have noticed it was sort of hodgepodge is of different processes, some people still putting yellow envelopes and people had a drop box sort of thing like a hokey version of, um, you know, self made version of middle. Some people of the massive enterprise systems put out by camera Scholastic Camera, which company? But there are all these different ways of doing the exact same thing. So we thought we should just build sort of the common app for submitting first for submitting manuscripts. And we did, and it took off in terms of volume. So we quickly, pretty much every university, tons of independent publishers, um, started using it,

and that was great. Except they were, um, they were amazing customers. In terms of like feedback. They're all highly educated, like super, you know, interesting. They're creating opportunities t do this thing that I love, which is make books. Um and I love the whole space. Look at all the people in it. The problem was there broke. There's no like having poetry journals as your customers is really not a great business. And you don't really run into that until you start hiring people.

So once we started hiring people, it really made me look harder at the business. And, um, and, you know, decide whether we could actually make a business publishing. And we decided we there was a lot bigger opportunities and especially we're gonna grow the company. Um, we moved in Talebi that the vertical. Such is user generated content. Uh, you could imagine, um, we have large brand that use us for accepting 3 to 4 minute videos Will run a commercial. Like,

say, we're going to commercial around togetherness and send us your to determine a video. And if we use it for a commercial, we pay you $20,000 something. And, um that, like, those use cases have exploded. Um, anybody want to interact with large media files? The so our application works with its Got a form builder, you know, very tricked out formed older, but it's also works with over 75 files. It'll take these files and transit code. Um,

so the end user, the organization accepting the video of the document don't have to download it, and they can beat you. See it in the browser. And that's really that was what made it take off from publishing people. Restrict first started to work around with their ipads. And the original iPad didn't have word on it. You couldn't put Microsoft office on the original iPad, and so we were giving them away to view the, uh, somebody submit that were document on the publisher side they get, they get trance, code it into a pdf into HTML five, and they can view in the browser. And that was what originally took off when we now do that with 75 different file types. So,

um yeah, grant applications, admissions at university, like any big ah, submit and review process.

35:30

And so that's really interesting. Is that so? In your customer is essentially that, uh, the and user who gets all these documents gets all these videos sent to them in the in a format to lead, and then they, when they pay, make payments to that person. Did you get out of that?

35:47

Yes, they there's a payment module and that can add payment anything. And if they dio, we acted the credit card processor. Um, the but the majority of our revenue was fast revenues. So the organization that it's happening, um, and we now have over 10,000 clients. At any given time. There's over 1000 what we call opportunities, being an organization making opportunity. And then on the back end, I mean, if you think about a form builder like type form or something, like, those are pretty tight forms,

isn't that a better Google forms right? Or it's like next generation blue food and the with those applications do is take data and make it data. So it's great for things like Li Jen or like quick surveys. But there's so many use cases where you're submitting to a form and what the process is isn't about aggregating all the submission Kidding, figuring out I don't have some metric around him. It's actually reviewing the data in the submission are reviewing a file on this mission. And so once this mission comes in, there's all these trick out features where you can auto assigned my kids if they choose. Um, you know, ex auto assign its team. Why, if it's use, why in the form, like a like, let's say,

uh, say of D. C using us for accepting pitches. They, um and I And one of the questions is, Are you be to be or your staff for you? You see whatever. And if you choose to be to see your review process will go through a different process, and here would be to be so be to be, application would automatically go to the baby to be partners would be to see application without enough to go to the consumer partners and so facilitates that kind of business logic and just everything that happened after, like form builders were really about the form itself. And the data after and formidable is about the review process process. Multiple people going in. You can put a textural reviews like Thumbs Up, Thumbs Down or rank things based on both Pickwick the VC application like 1 to 10 sounder. You know,

rank rate. The founders 1 to 10. Industry knowledge. Wanted. 10 presentation on the deck. Whatever you can, you can you can contractually rank. Oh, everything that's coming in based on whatever logic you want. Um, until it's riel, that's the value.

38:18

That's really interesting. Um, are you guys starting to use a I it all in how you work with that data?

38:25

Yeah, we are one. The, um the place where it's implemented right now is we have something called Discover. So if you use a lot of these organizations will create these opportunities. So you got 1000 opportunities. Everything from granting our academic research opportunities to scholarships to film festivals, too Manuscripts. And, um, if you are logged in as Smith Apple users. Smithers, if you've submitted magazine, eh? But you haven't submitted to magazine B, But we it looks and she's like, Well,

um uh, somebody else. You had success magazine. A awesome submitted to magazine B. Um, and we see that relationship. Um, there's tool. There's there's a I back there that's doing everyone calls it a I don't know, it's relational logic. Uh, that hell's you know, we'll poke submitted the original Smith and be like, Hey, you haven't Smith this magazine, but we think it's a good fit,

So we're starting to do more and more of that. A recommendation engine within Discovery to help our clients get more content, get more submissions, get more like focused and contextually correct submissions. Like, if I'm a fly fishing guy fly fishing writer, I shouldn't be committing to magazines about, um, go Belk or something, right? So, um, so we're getting the right people to the right opportunities, and then on the other end, we're starting to add a I organizations want to like, um,

three. Identify things based on what you can go with publishing. Still like it'll rip rip of document apart and start to look a like sentence structure, grade level of sentences, stuff like that. Um, we haven't introduced this into the main product yet, but, uh, that's where we're going.

40:28

That is very interesting. So I'd love to take the remaining time and have a conversation about creativity, because it sounds like you're very creative on and you've got this creativity. You said, you write novels. Do you still write?

40:44

I do have a second book called Start Down, which It's about five years late from when I plan on finishing it, but, um, it's mostly about starting a company in the middle of nowhere, uh, and just sort of trials and tribulations. But, um, but I stopped writing novels. Novels? Yeah, I think, um, I don't believe in this left brain right brain thing. I think everybody, I mean,

one of the things you get when I think that I struck me as I got older. Uh, pretty much everybody's capable of everything. Like, you know, there's all Khanna's smart people in the world in Silicon Valley's all about smarts. But, um, at the end of the day, like I asked, I think the Internet has made smart less of a commode or more of a commodity and less of a, um, special thing, because we could kind of look everything up. I can go home tonight and research had a still the garden, you know,

like everything all information is it's sort of accessible, smart, and settles have become less important. And and I truly believe pretty much everybody's capable of everything. So ah, I think when I look back like writing a novel, it didn't feel like a creative exercise To me, it felt like I sit down and keep your butt in the chair and keep writing until you're done exercise and and I I like that The special moments were when you go into the shower and really thinking about a character and you're sort of your mind has to actually get out of your reality and, um, truly actualized what that character is, and those like when you're doing something, the writing, a novel or some big creative undertaking like that, those little like you need to be thinking about it all the time, like it needs to be rolling around in your head. If you're not conscious of it,

it needs to like Stephanie to be germinating. And my biggest problem with writing after I started the company is that germination stuff started happening about the company women in the shower. Now I think about the company. I don't think about a scene in the book and and it and now a lot of it is the same muscle like you're making something. I have nothing. Um and yeah, I wouldn't have, uh, so much of writing a novel was useful for starting a company. You're sticking with it Showing up when no one asked you D'oh. Not worrying about whatever. I mean, you tell people you're writing a novel. Yeah, awkward, like starting a competent like Tell people you're starting a company. Then you know, it's just so easy prevalent in Smith. Everything.

43:41

That's ah anyway well, in the sun, because I was about to ask you the question. What is the difference between creativity and business and what is the difference in creativity in the arts? And I think I already gave that a very good answer. But I wanted to touch on something you said, which is, uh, is why I love doing the podcast because I was just in the forest for three days. And I was reading this book the book of Why It's by a, uh, artificial intelligence. Ah, professor who discovered how to model causal relationships, Uh uh, and And has now been offering that to the two building models of artificial intelligence in the way that basis things off of causal models. And if you can bring some,

if you and like this this is a no go. And in academics for the last seven years, they're like correlation does not equal causation. We cannot talk about causation. Causation is something that is beyond the means of science. And now with this, they're actually no. We can actually get to cause ality for some things on. And what she talks about is the is the There's a ladder of cause. Ality on it goes to Yuval Harari is point of essentially what separates us human beings from other animals and even our forefathers, our ancestors, before they started to, uh create stories. And imagine it is that we can imagine things and engineer things like that. Sorry. And so the ladder of cause ality is 1st 1st rung is associations,

and that's correlations. And that's a ce faras. We've gotten in science right now and until the last 25 years on and then we've got the latter two, which is doing eso first is seeing Second is doing, and third is imagining imagining worlds that don't exist on DSO they they used counterfactual cz for this where they say so. This, you know, this question of why is basically a question of, um of why did something happen and why did something else not happen in in place of that in developing stories and imagination? And that's something that's very specifically human beings. And I forget what up? But, uh uh,

45:46

we're talking about creativity versus business or, uh, yeah,

45:51

and that's and it's this that's what exactly You started using your imagination more for the business, going into the shower thoughts and having that germination happened around the business as well. Which is fun because that's something that I've also, you know, The reason I started the show was that and specifically focused it on the relationship between creativity and stress for a long time was people told me that I was creative and I had no idea what that meant. Um and so Yeah, I'm gonna go interview other people about creativity, and most people sign creativity to this art sense. Like I was just in an interview in a high Engineer last week and they were like, I'm not creative. I I don't I don't do art. Yeah, but it's like you D'oh! You're creating these things and there is art to that, Like That's But that's the fundamental thing. Oh, that.

Here it is art of eso As artificial intelligence goes up that ladder of causation Now that they've figured out how to do it, we as human beings are job will go further and further up that ladder of causation Maur to met a things so things that are higher and higher asking questions basically So Oh, yeah, said you said, uh in smart is just a commodity now and that I believe is true. And so imagination is the thing where, uh, where we, as human beings can really kind of. That's the That's the gold standard that that artificial intelligence seems very, very far away from.

47:13

I agree e mean, that's what humans are different than dogs, that they can imagine a future where they can imagine something that doesn't exist, um, off in the future and then build towards Right, Um, that seems to be with a difference. But I completely agree that creativity has been like, co opted by artists. I mean, we all used the artist. Everyone was building everything. One made everything. Um, And now you're only allowed to be created. If you're a poet and novelist like that's crazy. Ah,

the and you're You know, we're told it's such a early age like your right brain. Your left brain like that is totally just some framework like that Lord came up with to, like, chill people out. Not not, you know, make it easy to put people into the socket, right? Like if if you're good at Bath, then I been here's your career, and here's what you're gonna do the rest your life. And, um then we're telling people it's 17. That's the way it is. Not Ah,

I don't I don't believe it. I don't I don't buy this bluff brain. I think everybody can learn everything. And I think, um ah, society tells them very early that they're good or bad stuff, and we and they listen in the powerful.

48:26

And that's another point that you mentioned. I want to talk about the add up to adaptability because that is what our brains are designed to do is adapt us to different situations. And we've got this weird civilization that kind of puts us into these ruts where we're like Okay, no, no, this is what I'm doing. This is what I'm good at. This is I'm going to specialize in this and everything else and just gonna forget about but are our body is what, and her brains are meant to be stressed and stimulated in novel ways so that we can learn how to solve novel problems. Um and so that is something that's really interesting for may I mean, the one the example that comes up most recently is going off into nature and sleeping in the forest, which is something that was really, really ah, challenging and almost like psychedelic in the sense to the 1st 3 times I did it. Yeah, now is becoming more and more just normal. So it's no problem sleeping on the floor.

It's no problem, like sleeping under the stars. It's no problem, like thinking about all the you know animals. Just it's I've adapted to it, and and we as a species are like it seemed to have lost that at at adaptability, we kind of create these thought palaces where it's like, Okay, that's that's I feel safe and comfortable here. So this is all I need to be doing, and this is just fine, because I'm not, you know, it's It's particularly for starting a business. Maybe that's a question for you. Uh,

because you've, you know, you've been running the business now for 10 years. Would you be doing anything else? Like, Why do you love for doing this?

49:54

Um, well, what it was, you know, it's super gratifying. Thio be ableto basically hire people you want to be around, right? Like, way put a huge emphasis on, um, coming to work should be an engaging, interesting thing. You know, like, you should be sitting next to people who you're curious about. You learn stuff, and and that's like the bar who I hire like is this is gonna be and I'm gonna learn from this person is going to be challenging.

Am I gonna find um so ah, um, lost, um well, you know, That's funny. What would I do if I wasn't running a business? Yeah, I would. I would start another one as soon as if this was taken away from me. Tomorrow I would start another one and probably be around cancer because I got cancer. But, um, but not but mostly because I just There's something out there I want I want I want the product that's specific to my cancer. And so I know 130,000 other people a year get diagnosed with similar. Um um has centered. Diagnosis is made, so I would just go build something I wanted hope 130,000 other people a year. Would I find it useful in maybe to their lives?

51:15

Are you comfortable talking more about that? Like the cancer? What type of cancer was,

51:20

uh, I've staged for colon cancer, and it's metastasized. I was diagnosed in 2017 actually, the day after we raised our series A, um and I had to call our, um I could call the lead on that round, which was true, Ventures. I had no idea I was running marathon. I didn't feel sick, and I went in for a colonoscopy after, um Ah, Well, I was getting up there in age and, um, I woke up and they told me at 68 months left and I said to call the investors.

I mean, unbelievable, but they they were incredible. They just don't worry about it. I mean, it's a day after the money came into the bank. They said, Go figure this out. Um and you know, like, we'll take care of everything else and that's what I did. I got a plane that flew to a bunch of anti cancer clinics, ended up it Sloan Kettering and New York and found an incredible person in Dr Kemeny, Nancy Kennedy. And, um, I am not out of the woods yet, but I'm not dead. And, um and yeah,

52:42

and do you have a specific product in mind for that?

52:46

Um, so I have something called Hey, pump dot com, which is So the disease that I have is colon cancer is if it's found in stage one, and even stage two, it's like 99% curable, but all they just surgical, they go in, they cut it out. And your colon, you've got, like, an extra 20 feet of your colon. So, um, you've got you can you're part of it. Um,

if it metastasized usually goes to the liver and then the lungs. But once he gets the liver, historically, there's been a huge problem because your liver is, um, the gold delivers to deadly toxin. So when you introduce chemo, systemic email, chemo, meaningful body chemo, it works on most of the organs. Um, it does not work on your liver, your liver gets it. And just and so, um,

to historically, once you were once, once the cancer got your liver, it was pretty much game over. Um, And so this woman, uh, Dr Kemeny and the one she was a young physician in the late eighties, early nineties. She knew that the problem was the liver. It wasn't the coal in itself. You had to fix deliver. And, um, I don't know what else he was trying, but she heard about this thing called the Codman pump.

And the common pump is was devised in the seventies and eighties. Um, and it was originally used as a pain medication delivery mechanism. So when you had, like you in the sixties seventies and eighties, started doing. Uh um, they could replace like your hip. They start their started to, like, put in mechanical replacements into your body. They confuse your spine together, and it was working. But everybody had chronic pain, and you couldn't give Moby Lloyd's because they just, well,

they become dope heads. And you couldn't send a moment needles so that they could do it localized, because then you got people walk out with needles, so someone came up with this thing. You could put it. It's a puck titanium puck. It's got two elastic chambers. One is filled with air and one of Silva's medicine, and every two weeks they would fill the medicine one. And there's a catheter directly to the the area in your body that that was in pain, like a player spine. And the catheter was attached to that area, and your body temperature would dramatically would slowly expand the um, chamber with oxygen and slowly pushed out the medicine. But in a measured way, you could you could figure out the physics.

If your body temperature is 98.7, you could figure out howto have it like drip 2 to 3 milligrams a day or something or whatever that the calculation was, and and then they would just stick a needle inside you has, like, a little rubber top, like a pencil of racer and fill it up every two weeks instead of every day. And then he had this constant drip of of pain relief directly, and she saw that and said, That's what we need to deliver. We need that to deliver chemo. Yeah, huge jump, Awesome jump. And so she at the time if it was, if you had gotten, if you had gotten cancer to your liver,

your 5% survival rate. And even now, even in when I first got it was 11%. He has people at 68%. So she so theat Ridge American Cancer Society. This year they upgraded to 14%. So things are definitely changing, and it still sounds miserable. 14% live for five years, but by adding just another 4% was at 11 or 3% of the 11% you're still talking. About 10,000 people a year are surviving something that used to kill him. So, um, she started with medical, um, results.

He really She was seeing things in the day to day office. But you you need a five year cohort. They called us. I like to call it the actual number. And her first generation. Um, you know, she probably didn't see dramatic results, but even if she doubled it, so she got into 10% it probably felt pretty good. And she slowly just, um, iterated on both dosage on best chemo. Other things have come on board, like we now get steroids and our chemo, and,

you know, you've got she's got people who, um, you go into her, uh, her waiting room and it's a profound plates use people from all over the world. But I've talked to people who are 10 15 years out, and they said when they started, you know, everyone was sick, Everyone was bald, everyone's gray, everyone's under blankets. Everyone was like at death's door. And now you go in there and it's like a dentist office. You know,

people are still in a shitload of trouble, and a lot of us die. But, um, but she's got people walking around, and I'm running a company and have Stage four. Colon capped a terminal disease. Unbelievable.

57:50

and you're using this, A product is helping you. It's basically increased your life lier life from, uh, enjoying her life ability.

58:3

It's better than being dead, you know? So, yeah, I was I should have been dead and what it does to the So, um, they implanted this thing. They cut out the original tumor that ripped out a bunch of lives, though, so it had spread pretty far, but they surgically did as much as they could, and then they installed it. This talk and it's a 10 hour surgery. It's not a joke. And then every two weeks they fill it with chemo, and it just doesn't drip directly to my my liver. My liver,

when I was diagnosed was covered and had 22 plus lesions, and they got it just by being able to do targeted chemo. They got it down to five. And your liver is amazing because it's the only it's the only organ that can regenerate, right, like you can cut your liver and half it'll grow back. And there's no what's crazy is there's no physiological reason behind that until 2015 like when we were in the caves. If something was going on our liver like that, like there was no growing. There's no growing to lever back with your cave person, so it's kind of wild. That is exit like, Why is deliver regenerate? In any case, the goal is to get you to resection. Surgery and radiation are really the only true quote unquote cures.

Um, so what they tried to do to get you to a liver resection clear all the disease off her liver through surgery or radiation, but they need to have enough healthy liver left could do those kinds of things, so they shrink all the tumors as much as possible that go in and surgically remove as much as possible. But you need to have enough healthy liver like cancer free liver so that, um, you'll survive while your liver grows back and your liver £67 you can cut like £2. Your liver often will grow back in four weeks. It's nuts. It's amazing. But so I went through that process, got a liver resection with cancer free for about eight months, and then I've had recurrences sense. But we're just, you know, we're on it and ah I get scans every eight weeks,

and I've got cancer right now. I'm doing chemo, which isnt a joke. I mean, um, that's actually the hardest part. Every two weeks, I basically take chemo, and it's harder being hung over, uh, like drinking.

60:31

And for how long is it like, Is it like every two weeks are over for a few days? Or is it that weeks that you're feel hung over?

60:39

It's usually four days, so I'll do it on a Friday afternoon, and that will be six through the weekend. And then sometimes I'm okay on Monday. But, um, it really isn't out of my system until, like Wednesday, and it gets harder and harder. In the beginning, you could kind of like a cloud power three things. Now, um, you know, physically compromised. Just because I've done a lot of chemo, uh,

things come up, I got chicken chicken pox. Because if you take a box when you were a kid before there's now, uh, everyone get inoculated. But, um, in the seventies, when I was a kid, I had chicken pox and you beat it. But the virus actually lives in your muscles forever. And so when your immune systems compromised, just all kinds of shit goes out of whack for me. I got chicken Tunks and I'm 49 right? Uh, so ah,

it's not after I'm making it sound like it's super easy. And I wouldn't wish this on my worst enemy, but, um ah, yeah,

61:52

Thank you. First of all, thank you for sharing that. It's ah, that was I'm grateful for for you being able to share that on then in second ball is my my my dad just went through leukemia, and, um and so yeah, yeah. So I had a I've had I've considered it. This is Ah, I just telling you about the breath work business that I wanted to get started. And now I'm so there's something interesting I learned about what happened with my dad was because his his immune system was also compromised for basically the space of a month. And I couldn't go see him in the hospital, right? And so and I started to do zoom calls with them on by interviewing him about his life. And and and that's actually that's That's the genesis of this podcast. One of the genesis of this podcast words was me just interviewing him about his life because we didn't know whether it's gonna make her.

Not fortunately, he is. He's here now, and we're coming up on the two years mark Mark, which is good. But s o I want it. I want to teach breath work to people in, um in compromised immune states who can't be in contact with other people. Um, and it's ah, it's an interesting business because I can't have I talked to a lot of people, but I can't go through the doctors. I can't go through the nurses because then only didn't have ethical review board then all this different stuff. But if I can reach out and find the people will find the people with leukemia, it's just like Netflix. You know,

they're using Netflix in those rooms, so it's like they do zoom. So that's that's the big challenge I'm trying to figure out right now. I'm gonna I'm gonna got a DuPont cast episodes with the Leukaemia Foundation and see if they can help me help me get to get in contact with the actual people who are going through this stuff. But, um, but there's a

63:44

eventually so leukemia. So he was probably doing some sort of mental therapy where they just ripped distribute.

63:51

It was came out of that right? Believe it was chemotherapy. It means no Israel therapy. No, no, it was radiation radio. Look

64:1

it up. Well, he was probably on. He was probably radiated and also some other immunotherapy or something that was compromising his immune system. And that's why they sequester people. Uh, and it's different for cancer type, but But I agree that totally. I mean, yeah, get zoom in their rooms. So what do you think? Yeah, with the girl. Uh,

64:27

what's the hurdle on? The main hurdle is that if I try to approach hospitals about having about them telling these patients about it, they would have to go through an ethical review board, which they were very unlikely to approve. Ah, And so the main hurdle is that I can't I can't go through the doctors, but there's a bunch of people so gone on Facebook groups. I found all these support groups for people with the type of cancer that my dad had, but there's also other people who would benefit from this as well Agora, folks, People can't leave the house on DSO Anybody who's kind of in a state where they can't they can't. They can't talk with other. They can't be in the same room as other people or go outside, but yeah, the men men, men s O. I got all these Facebook groups in the leukaemia foundation.

They have a podcast, some I'm gonna go interview them. And if they want, they want to dio if they, um can I don't know, advertise this. I'm gonna do this part totally for free on bond. So I I like this will just be kind of like a service. That thing, Um s Oh,

65:31

yeah, that's cool. Um, yeah. I personally think there's tons. I mean, the hard part of building a business in in something like cancer is, uh, um, these people are generally sick and don't have you like one of the most obvious thing to me was when I got sick. Was that, um, as a society, we how what we do with people with chronic disease, diabetes, or what cancer is now is first, we let you go broke because,

you know, just like even good health insurance now has $6000 a year, Um, deductible. So anybody who's even if they have a health insurance, they're signing up. And that's just a taste of the medication, Like, chemo is like a $9000 a month bill. So you're on top if you have insurance your view like 100,000 or something. But I'm but you're still like one. You can't work anymore because the crazy think our health insurance is tied to her job. But if you actually get sick, you can't work. So you lose your health insurance like it's crazy and all excited, just like yep,

where work should be, where you get health insurance. But if you get sick, you can't work. Makes no sense at all.

66:53

Yeah, them.

66:55

And like as a society, we're like Okay,

67:0

yeah, and and And it's so interesting because it's like because I'm on one end. We we have the best technology. Like like the woman you're the woman you found in New York. Um, you know, like that we have all these these innovative ways to do it, but they're also expensive, so it's like, uh, we're really good at making innovative, expensive ways to cure these things. But then if somebody can't afford them, then they're, like, screwed. Um, and Brendan.

67:30

Right? And the theory is that, you know, the first pass is always really expensive. And then, you know, the price comes down and then, um, you know, even with it, what I have like in theory. So I started. I have a project called hey pump dot com. If you go to hey, pump a J i p u m p dot com All it is is an easy way for people to find hospitals that, um, that do this,

do what I have to do the hey, pop. Um, and my goal there is just on boarding. I get it. I want I am, I'm not. I'm in the middle of working on it, something I do like you in the morning, but, uh, the reason why it's not more popular because surgically intensive. So you need a surgeon at your hospital to implant this thing. What we really want and what all medicine wants because both margins but also used distribution and scalability is a pharmaceutical solution, like we just want people to be able to take a pill understandably, but there's so many things. But as a result, there's so many things that could be cured through other paths that aren't pharmaceutical that don't get cured because, um, it doesn't scale.

68:48

Well, I'm looking at once that you had to travel to another place because there's not in Missouri. Had to go to another place to do it, right?

68:56

Yeah. And I go every month, I go to New York once a month to get it serviced in tow. My oncologist, that the doctor committed. So I mean, think about financial there, right? Like and? And I'm the boss, So I have a little bit of freedom with my schedule, and I should probably but you know, your average. I'm not that I'm not average, but you can't. Um if I was a ah teacher are I worked at the tire store, right?

Like I wouldn't have this option. That's also, um and it's mostly bureaucratic. Mostly the rockets, mostly insurance like hip. Like if we could all collectively upload our genetic data and not be worried about repercussions. The reason we don't do that right now because insurance companies will use it against us, right? Like if I if we all just made our day, there are health records public. The big problem is insurance companies would use it against us. Is not really any other issue there. It isn't that that's we could cure tons of diseases if we could collectively get this data and and Anna Mayes it. But even if not, but we don't do that right now because insurance companies will use it against us. That's the reason we need privacy around medical.

And, you know, it's just tons of stuff like that. It just has nothing do with medicine. There's nothing doing best health. It's just a business. Models got shoved into um, science.

70:32

It's like a leviathan that basically takes, takes this and like, creates warped initiatives or worked incentives. That's crazy. I'm gonna send you a There's a great video that's coming out of UCSF, the doctors who are looking at the connection between connective tissue cancer, chronic pain and stretching eso they're doing. It's only in animal models right now, but they're stretching in order in order to show the effect of stretching on chronic pain and cancer. It turns out that the connective connective tissue bed under which cancer grows in is really stiff. Eso if you can stretch and I don't mean this minute, like on our long yoga class. I'm talking about 5 to 10 minutes. A very light stretching every day. Uh, it can Wow. Yeah,

it can kind of start through, um, move the connective tissue matrix and allow it to get more fluidity so that the cancer has less place to grow. They look, they found that a lot of the connectors issue. They found a lot of the cancer that grows and connective tissue. The tumor's the connective tissue is very stiff. Um, so if you could loosen that connective tissue up, you can provide a more healthy environment for the cancer.

71:48

Um, uh I mean, yeah, I'm sure that I mean one just people are getting. There's been a 1% increase in colorectal cancer for people under the age of 40 every year since 2020. So anybody born in the nineties has like three times, three times more likely to have cold colorectal cancer than people in the seventies. So there's like one like society is creating cancer. Two, we're limiting the ways you can, you know, potentially cure it. We're, um uh we're not, You know, there's there's tons of motion around integrative medicine around TBD. You know,

basically, we in general, but also just physical things. You know, we just sit around. Even our exercise now is like, we go do it in a box store with some exercise, Michael, but like, people just don't truly experience the world. And like, physically, how we respond Thio as when we're back in the case. Um And I mean, it's probably stretching like what you're saying, but it's really just being an animal in the world,

like we just don't move the way we used to move. We now like sidewalks like, What the hell is the sidewalk? It's just it's like it's a four foot piece of cement that we all just travel on now are like roads like it's so not what we're physiologically built to. D'oh!

73:22

And that's that That goes back. A deft ability part that we're talking about early is that is that yet in cities now we're basically our hips have stopped adapting to multi level terrain on, So if you if you're always on that on that flat thing, you're never having forcing your hips and your ankles to adapt.

73:43

But instead we go ride. What is this thing called the ducks exercise machine like that's supposed to make up for it. That we that we spend 45 minutes on this crazy contraption instead of actually just walking around in health? Yeah. Um, yeah, I feel like I'm whining. I have, like, I actually think the future is amazing. And do you think we're gonna cure cancer? And I do think, um that our kids, you know, if we can stop going back to what you said originally about nationalism vs, Well, basically people starting wars and killing each other ideology.

But a lot of from me a lot of coming. It's just sort of the nature of the Internet, like for the first time. People say millennials are like this is that they're actually the first group of people who, literally, what can can communicate with millions of people almost effortlessly like, You know, 100 years ago on Lee Randolph Hearst could do what your average person could do on Twitter right now, like, say something and millions of people interact with it. And with that, you know, It's a learning process like it's a very powerful thing, my senses, my kids and young people. I know like,

um, they actually feel like they have a voice. I mean, enough said that they actually try to say things like, um, you know, even But even politics like that, you know, the nature of the comment section is point counterpoint, right? You say Galen dialectics and and just facilitating that the Internet, letting people wake out and be like, What? I'm gonna say something about Donald Trump or I'm gonna say something about people who don't look like me. Um, is it to me that seems pretty obvious,

Like that's what would happen if you suddenly gave everyone these tools and they're just learning how to use them. And as a society, we're learning howto like What does it mean when people are shouting at each other and they're not? I don't truly believe people hate each other the way the Internet and the media I like. I like everyone isn't in love with Trump or, you know, anti father or whatever. You know. The majority people are just people, and the Internet is built to facilitate point counterpoint which creates a sort of chorus of craziness. But when you actually need people, no one's really like that. And I think that this generation is just It just got this crazy tool. They're learning how to use it. Spend it then, and it's partially the tools fault. But, um, I think it's gonna get better.

76:35

Yeah, we're gonna adapt and we're gonna we're gonna write like we're gonna learn how it actually used this tool responsibly. That's what I'm what I'm trying to do with everything I put out there on Twitter. Facebook is How do I How do I use this tool? It's trying to get me in a way that spreads thea antidote to, uh, to this attention, miss attribution or attention. The lack of focus that the certain the parts of the system are really good at co opting and then moving towards monetary gain for large companies with large ad budgets. Yeah, just agree. So I gotta wrap up now, but I just thank you so much for sharing all this. And, um, my thoughts and prayers erred are with you. And, um and and how can people find out? So are you Are you guys hiring. It's amicable.

77:33

We are. If you go to formidable slash jobs. Um, there's we're hiring developers, products, people, salespeople. Um, we're 109. Our goal is 240,000,000,020 20. So, um, we're averaging seven years jobs of the month. And, yeah, um, Montana's amazing You're gonna look here,

and, uh, there's other jobs here, so it's not like going back to what we said in beginning. It's not like you're taking a massive gamble like coming with us, um, for joining us. Um, So I hope to see your resume

78:9

and then then four people, if somebody it does have cancer in their life in this particular type of cancer, how can they find out more about that?

78:19

That your mother as well. Oh, so that's it. Hey, pump dot com. But really, if you if you are truly if you'd stayed for colorectal cancer, use it for anything. Um, there's a great this great community groups want. Tell Cole in town if you got a call in town dot org's that facilitates a bunch of Facebook groups. Really, really. Nicci, the home neighborhoods. But like ones around like clinical trials that are specific to your your your genetic makeup. Ones around things like a pump ones around.

Why 90? Which is another liver specific. Uh um um treatment. And so Colin Towns. Amazing. You know, there's, like, colorectal cancer dot or get a great organization. There's tons of, like, support things. Um, and my my product isn't really my classroom isn't really there yet, but, um uh,

but it coming a mile on it if anyone wants to reach out and just they're confused or underdressed, um, so much It's such a disorienting feeling when you wake up and someone tells you're gonna be dead in six months. Um and, uh, it's usually not the case. And also starting to get on line. You could Google stage for colorectal cancer. You're pretty bleak set of results. And, um and it's not the case. It doesn't have to be the case. None of us are statistics. We, uh um there is always hope, and there's always something Dio

79:58

is there that, under, like, 30 40? Because it sounds like this is a unique thing. That's happened to a lot of people under the age who normally wouldn't go through cancer screening. Do you know if there's any cancer screening that's available toe young people,

80:12

Well, that's right. So, historically, insurance companies with only three American Cancer Society recommended everyone over 50 getting a colonoscopy. Start getting colonoscopies every year, every two or three years after 50. They've lowered that age to 45. But generally, if you see bleeding down there or your keys and you don't know why or you're just food, stop taking. Great. I, um, get it checked out because if you catch it early, it's 100% curable. Almost stage one is so curable,

but it gets once it bounces out of your liver out of your colon. Um, it's it's not curable it all. So, um, but even when I say that that's the fax. The poses statistics that it's not curable after Stage four, but hundreds Thousands of people are living perfectly, not perfect lives, but they're living with stage for colorectal cancer and thriving, and, um, and it's just a matter sort of settling in figuring out your treatment and figuring out how to have a life with with this is your dad up and walking

81:27

now? Yeah, he's back, and I we've been going fishing And that's part of the huge reason that I've been going fishing with him is because now I've gotten this kind of like, second least, which is amazing about about modern medical science. It's like that it actually does. It's giving hope to certain things. I have a lot of problems with medical science in terms of chronic issues that are that are, uh, not necessarily what they say they are. But man in terms of cancer in terms of a cute things like it is so good. And I'm so thankful toward for it because my dad is still alive. Yeah,

82:1

yeah, I mean, they say so. Any the therapy, which I bet your dad did. A combination of radio radiation immunotherapy so immediate therapy has really started to, like, get momentum things like Keytruda Heat on TV now. But even five years ago it was You know it. It's 150. There's an amazing book called Breakthrough by Charlie Graber. I highly recommend anybody interested in the history of immune therapy because it's fascinating. Maybe the therapy is tricking your body into,

82:30

um

82:31

uh, doing what it's supposed to D'oh! And they they're they're documented cases. I'm like the 18 eighties in New York in like Hell's kitchen type environments, where somebody has, like a massive tumor on their neck and the doctor somehow it gets pig blood on it. You know something that that stimulates the immune system, and the immune system just eats the tumor like that. That that is immunotherapy. That's like What is happening is when your cancer is your body, forgetting that there's something you're not noticing. Something horrible is going on and letting that happen, letting it replicates. But I mean, in theory, your immune system should go, that that's cancer. We should go kill that, but it doesn't.

83:14

But thank you so much, Ana.

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