Hey there, listening alone. Welcome to the ride that show This is your host Carroll's Escape today. My guest on the show is Jason Preston, my friend here in Seattle, who created a conference called Dent. It's Dent the future dot com Not only Jason is a founder who started this company when their first kid was born. His wife is also founder of a new company here in Seattle, and the reason the kids while doing it all the same time as always, we're gonna have a lot of different topics and in this case is going to be startups. Monitor education. How's your raising kids in a multi family? Teach your three year old about sex kind of and a lot of other things that way found interesting to us, and we'll definitely be helpful to us parents or its future parents. Let's jump right in and Start was Jason's most

recent baby. Yeah, it's, uh, it's my start up. It's my other baby,

three year old five year old and how old is dead?

Five year old company started Dent. About the same time is it started the little human. That was an interesting choice. Go on It's not just kind of worked out that way, and it was It's I probably I probably would do that again. I know a lot of people say like, Oh, I didn't know you could talk to people who are entrepreneurs like, Yeah, I started a company and I had a kid at the same time. It didn't work. But the other thing is, my wife is super awesome and also entrepreneurial. So, like a lot of the rest that happens in relationships because of just the start apart, Like the stress from both right. There's stress from doing startup and this stress from having a kid and, um which we handled that. Okay, I think. And

so when you started, that was your first kid born yet or what happened

the first. Okay. Julian was born July of 2012. Dent Waas hosted for the first time in March of 2013. But I was working on it at remember I was pitching people at south by which is March of 2012. Okay, so we're planning emotion before Julian popped out. Yeah. I mean, very much simultaneous. I've been playing. It's funny. I have this you know, so that we do a conference every year. And there are people who have been to Dent every year we do this year. We just did a couple weeks ago. Six years,

and and so I've been I've been planning for a while. The have Julian come up in, like, introduce a session or something. And I have a great intro for Julian, which I'm gonna spoil on this on this on the show. But like, there you want to go up on stage in Hey, there are people in this room who have been to every debt, huh? But I'd now like to introduce somebody who's been a dent every year of his life comes Julia. Yeah, I asked him if he wanted to do

it this year, and he was a little too nervous. I remember being too techstars demo day a couple of years ago while Andy Psych was still running it. And I think he did it a few times. Could do magic. Yeah, you did magic. And I thought it was really funny. Really nice break. It was great for the kid to go out there on stage with a couple 100 people sitting, which I think is give us a little older. But which kid gets an opportunity to do that and just have your dad encouraged? I think it's awesome, right? And and he's actually gonna be on the podcast soon, too. But so for five years,

and it sounds like you're like a perfect business to do when you have a kid because this, like, it doesn't tie your tune office. You know you can go travel, you

can take your kid will probably. Yeah, and you know, it's funny. That's changing this year. So this we just did the forms to put Julian into public school starting next September, right? So he's gonna go in first grade. He's been doing Montessori. My daughter's in Montessori with him in the same class with one drop off and one pick up.

How long is it during

the day? 09 to 5 this year? Okay, Yeah, it's like 93 is the Montessori part, and I'm like 3 to 5 is they just have, like, you can use that carrier you pay. But when you started in weird math, too, because, you know, it's like, well, you know, the school costs 20 grand. But,

you know, you get care from 9 to 5 and working. So if we needed, if we did like I didn't pay for, the school would have to pay for kid care. So we pay for that at $20 an hour. So it's about the same. And if we're gonna do that, might as well be in school as opposed to just like with someone like you. Start doing that, Matthew. Like, Wow, I guess that's how schools cost, like, 20 or 30 grand. Because there's

it's like That's the price of the alternative to what he's saying the right. That's something they don't tell you before you have kids, how expensive schools are. I mean, there are budget options, but every parent, like my friend Chris, you might know him. Chris Lynch. Hey told me this once. He's like, you're gonna send your kid to basically the best school. You can afford it that time because you want to do the best for your kids, right? And, uh,

I I'm a public school kid, right? Like I grew up going to public school and everything. I went to a private college, but whatever.

Don't playing back. It was lost.

College was great, but public school was also great. And like I am And it was here, you know, in Bellevue I went to public school. I want to be high. I went toe Stevenson Elementary. I went total middle school and so, like I am so I've never really been on this, like private school train. Montessori has been interesting. It's been good. I really like Montessori and like Like I said, it's like the math is interesting because, like, there's no free alternative. But now now we've got a free alternative.

Um, going with that? Oh, just the idea that I don't know that the best option for your kid is always the most expensive one, right? Like there's an implicit or implied, you know, value in that statement. Like what you're gonna pay from best school because because you can. But it's like, you know, there are probably could probably figure out how to send really into private school next year and next year. And you haven't that all the way that we could spend, you know, 300 grand on his education before it gets too high school, right? But I don't know that that's actually the best thing for him, you know, for for Lena like that's actually I think that's not a given.

It also depends on where you live. Course I remember in the Ignite Talk in Seattle from a couple of years ago thing when I just moved to Seattle. This guy, I don't remember his name anymore. But he was presenting a spreadsheet him and his wife put together off all the schools. And I think the story was about how in Seattle people actually buy and sell homes every couple of years, and it becomes a complete nightmare if you have a couple of Children, which will have to go to different schools because people literally move neighborhoods all the time playing the optimization game cause Okay, you can sure use and you get to private school paid 20 grand a year, or you can go to public school. But then you want to really go to a good public school. Then you have to move in the

grounds of the house because you're not spending it on school.

Exactly. It becomes a nightmare, right? And especially we've added, like a couple 100,000 people to the city, probably in the last few years, right with Amazon hiring like crazy. So it's it's getting worse. It's a zoo.

Totally depends on its absolute trip. Yeah, it is affected by where you live

in interesting experience and you guys just living like Seattle proper.

We love in Wedgwood. Yeah, so it's up up north by It's like you know where your job is. That's it. Not a cool

part of town. I

would like a wonderful part of town.

What is it good for kids?

Yeah, Yeah, it's awesome. There's, uh, you know, right from our house. Like we happen to be in a place where we can walk to, like, so say its nose, right? So its nose an eighth of an inch and the whole city shuts down way can walk Thio to grocery stores, three pubs, three coffee shops of four or five restaurants, three parks. I mean, like everything that we want in that little universe is right there and like, there's the school that we hope that Julian will go to is a block and 1/2 from our house. It's an option school, so it's not actually are assigned school. The assigned school is like eight blocks from our house.

How does that work? I'm not familiar with that. So

yeah, the public school system in Seattle, there's There's the usual neighborhood schools where you get a sciences view, Ridge Wedgwood, et cetera. In our area, Okay, and then there are options. Schools, which is Thornton Creek, is the one that we're hoping

Julian goes to, which is so option because they're not in your neighborhood. But you're still allowed

to option because you can. You can you can opt to go there basically and also option because it's it's an optional different curriculum. It's like the It's more project and experience driven is the idea. So it's like, you know, lets you learn about things by by being more hands on than a traditional sort of elementary school classroom. And it's been a very popular program with them, the Seattle school district. So they actually just opened up another option school up further north. Um, and I'm not really an expert on this. I'm just kind of fumbling around with it like we already like. Apparently, there's a deadline for testing for, you know, advanced learning stuff that we completely missed because you have to do that more than a year in advance of the year that your kid will start school. So,

in other words, the two years

and there's basically it's like if you're like Oh, yeah, my kid's gonna start first grade in 12 months, I should go figure out what's going on last. It's like Sorry you missed the deadline, which is a little extreme, but so we're edging into that world. And I think part of that was a roundabout way of going back to like whether this job is greater, not like travel has been great. While the kids were really little cause they could just come with me and, like we could take the whole family and we got a debt like they've come to Dent every year. And like like we went on, we did it. A dinner for Dent in Miami in December on were like flights cheap like Let's all go is it was like 180 bucks round trip or something stupid like that way. So we went to Miami for like, five days, right,

Like that's been great. But public school, it's like, Hey, if you have more than 10 absences in a year. Excused or unexcused, I'm excused like we are like That's like a serious moment over were like You have a parent teacher conference and this big discussion about like whether your parenting well and whether you blah, blah, blah and like it's like a serious thing.

You tend them a kiss to conferences. Of course, your parenting well, but well, but

it's it's one of those rules, right? And there's all this. And so it's like That's one of the reasons we're going on vacation in like, a week. We're leaving you to Hawaii because it's half price compared to like, two weeks later during spring break. And this is the last time we're gonna get to do that for, like, a dozen years, because we're gonna have a kid in school where we can't just take them out all the time, eh? So we're like, we're doing that last hurrah. Let's go, Let's go get our half price. Hawaii Vacation 11 more time.

You know what? While we're here, I think it's a note to like upcoming parents because you get to save like that a couple of times, right? Because I think before the kids turn to you get to fly them in your lap. And I know people who are like, Oh, my kid's gonna turn to in two weeks. Okay, let's go somewhere. Let's go. Yeah, of course you can do that. Schedule is fairly flexible, but then you still saved money. So you might as well do last minute, if you like, literally. Just remember that's gonna happen. And then So this is a good point. I actually think

before, not like before. You're you've weaned your child, right When they're still give one of your first baby and, like, five months old or 3 to 4 months old. That is a wonderful time to, like, go to Australia or Russia or halfway across the world because they have no time zone. And the food supplies built in need of money is not an extra $1500 plane ticket that they're not going anywhere. You set him down, they stay. You're gonna feel like that's a terrible idea. But looking back on it like, No, that's a wonderful time, too,

just like go somewhere crazy in the world and everything, like all your new parents, like Yes. Take time off like you know, it's perfect time.

You should listen to episode with Mike Holden and because they just got an RV and took their kid to the Olympic National Park. But there's like, three weeks old. Yeah, because it was really hot in the city and they drove their like, Great. It's nice breathing and relaxing. I go, I stay in the city and everybody like, Oh, you have a little baby like yet he's getting the best whether he could get right now right here. So, yeah, it's really easy to fall into this trap of thinking. Oh, gosh, Now I have kids like I really have to settle down, Do this things that everybody else is doing, like No, you don't know, just just

but kids and force routine. At least that's been my experience. Like I, um I would have thought it would have been the opposite. But like my life is way more, uh, has had way more routine in it since having kids before. I mean, it's okay. We have a bedtime routine morning routine. I've sung the same song every night for five years, right, right for the kids. So it's there these, like rituals and routines that get baked into your life because it's like, Oh, yeah, three Kid

needs it and we just had a What's it called Rating Week. Spring break, right? Like that's weak when the school is midwinter, break something some kind of break when schools. One thing you also don't realize when you pay for schools on your new parent that actually they're gonna be a lot of breaks. It's not as my schools, you think, and to your kids always gonna be sick because they're gonna be around like a couple dozen other kids. So really, when you're paying for what you think is a year of school three tops, Yeah, but you know, routine really helps and wants the routine of school. Stubbs kids go bizarre because, like, Well,

I'm used to seeing my friends used to doing this, and you're apparently like, Oh, great. Now I have to go entertain them for extra whatever hours a day, but also a good time to go take a break like way, just got on the car and drove to Portland, and that was awesome with mill planning whatsoever. But I also know that some parents who would know how to do that without three months ahead.

I think there's this is clearly a range of people's comfort with all that stuff, and it's really just a matter. It's like what? I think it tracks two people type in a lot of ways. You know, like I know people who are outdoors. He had a kid took my king like It's like you just kind of It's remarkable how much you just There's a lot that you can continue.

But that's kind of why I started about Dent, right? Because it feels like again. Well, first of all, you're the co founder, so you get to dictate the rules, which is a really nice yeah, And I guess until school it must have been, like, really fun that you could take your kids and you all these things.

Yeah, we've still been doing that cause Montessori is you know, it's private school and they're not counting the app, at least to my knowledge, that counting. So it's it's been fun.

How do you deal with work like, Do you maintain a routine for yourself or it's okay, kids like this time Dad is unavailable or is that flexible for them as well?

It is. There is a basic shape toe. How, Monica? Because Monica works. That's my wife works. Um, you know, like I said, start up. Which at what? She is a co founder and s o. We've split things up, and we have kind of a thing going this year. Where were both up early, like five or 6 a.m. Okay. And we work for a couple hours before the kids get up,

which is really fantastic. Like, that's been another thing about having kids. Like If you'd asked me 10 years ago if, like six AM existed, I'd have been like, No, that's not a point on the clock, but I really love it. I love getting up early and getting like that time. It's really productive. Plus, I have all these calls with people in the East Coast like Wow, that's so convenient. I'm like your the so and then Around 73 I go into kid modes like everyone that I work with. That I do things with knows that there's like this giant black hole between about 7 30 in the morning and about 9 15 in the morning and like that's where kids get up.

We get ready for school like we play a little bit. I recently started reading my son Calvin and Hobbes comics because he's five and I'm like Calvin Six like this might be fun. It's really funny to see what he thinks is funny because it's like it's just such a It's fascinating. He thinks he thinks fact about a situation are funny in the comic, but like but not but he doesn't. He doesn't get the joke, but it's still funny, you know, it's really interesting. So

sometimes they're trying Thio. They know you're laughing at something, so they're trying to find the funny point, even though they don't understand it. They, like, make something

funny. Yeah, I try not to prompt. You mean like I try to just, like, read it and let him because there's a lot he just doesn't laugh. He's like, I don't get it, but it was so that's kid Good time in the morning and then this year, which has, really, or the past, you know, 10 months ish has been, um, not calendar year. Back to school years for years has been really Ah,

it's felt like anon Opportunity to really get back into my energy for some reason, you know, like my youngest is now is now three and 1/2. She turned three last fall. Um, it's Ah, yeah, I think you know, they go to school at nine. We get them in five. Like that. Really gives me a day almost every day. You know, when there is school? Um, yeah,

I just work on dhe. Then Monica does the pick up Usually, although we've, like, often swap these around, like this morning. I had dental work and protect the kids to school kind of thing. Um, yeah. I mean, that's the and then I work. I work sometimes after bed, but I try not to.

While Justin I taking very quick break. I wanted to share something with you. It's an artist that I found on free music archive. And now I'm using for this podcast. And it's very cool, jazzy music they can use in your own podcast films. And if you just want to listen to cool music, you can go to their website and check it out. Sessions dot blue. Here's a preview. All right, Jason But if you want to hear more of their music, it's sessions that blue. When we left, you were talking about how now your kids are in school and it's sort of predictable, helpful. You can actually get work done.

But tell me a little bit about how you and your wife managed kids when they were not in school yet because personally, this is something I'm struggling with right now. I want them to go to school and I want them to learn. But I want them Thio go to the best school, and if it's not the best school, then I don't really want to give them to nanny or somebody who just, you know, maybe yes, play with them the whole day. But I feel like I can. Knowing what I know now, I can create quite a substantial impact with a life early on where I joke about this, but I can. I'm literally trying to teach my daughter, who is three years old right now, like physics and math,

as we look at the world around, way like go on a swing and she asked me why it's swinging and I'm like, Well, let me start with basics. Physics? Yeah, that's how it works. And so what did you guys do when your kids were not in school yet full time? How did you manage? Start up. And, you know, it was really

well done. I mean, we've done, I think, every combination of everything. We when Julian was first born, we both sort of took time off. We did, like, you know, No, apparently, um, Monica, the time was writing was not running a start up. She's writing a column for the Seattle Times. Okay.

And so we traded days that we would take the kid like I took a couple of days off, not off. But, you know, because when the little kid they sleep half today, whatever way, take the day at home more like whatever. And so, like between the two of us, we would just, like cover the week. And then after a little while, we hired a nanny to do, like, two days a week. And then we took the kid the other three days a week.

And then, um and then what do we do? We had ah, we had a different way. Did like a nanny share with another family, which was like 1/2 day every day, like Fanny share thing. And then we did a drop in daycare for a while because there's all these daycares that won't take kids until they're too, or they won't take him until you're like scheduled, and you have to get through the wait list or whatever. And then we moved to Boston for a year, which threw a wrench in things. And so we tried to set up a nanny share their, but then at the last minute, the other family dropped out and we were like, Well,

this sucks. And so we like we paid for the nanny full time like ourselves for a little bit while we got into a day care for are for Lean, our daughter. And then our son started going to Montessori. And but that was half day, so I would work from like, 6 a.m. to like noon, and then I would go get Julian from school. Lena would be like in dick and like, yeah, it was like a daycare. Daycare was an at home day care, so it's like regular day care than this day care at home uh, which has been the best of all. The arrangements we did pre like school stuff was, I think,

at home daycare was has been the best. And we've done two different ones of those. Okay, because, um

provided the most stability, the most value. What was

investigating? I like the, you know, it's a little bit detention a little bit cheaper than, like a day care in, like office building and whenever. Plus, you get like, like a much more like family feel to it, you know? I mean, like, you get like one or, you know, one primary person and like a couple people helping out. And they're always the same and they like and it's generally not 30 kids. It's more like 10 kids or eight kids.

And in our case, we wanted one the like, who spoke Spanish because we speak Spanish at home. My wife's Mexican. So we always spoken Spanish with kids

and they flew right now.

Yeah, yeah, they're Fline. Reluctantly, somewhat. Julian is like now got friends. They all speak in English, you know, it's like it's at that point where he's like fighting back at the whole, like speaking Spanish

thing were you fluent in Spanish, or did you have to learn?

Now I'm just gonna learn that the same pace, which is

that that's that's awesome.

Yeah, Yeah, it's been a lot of fun, actually. Um and I'm I Really? Yeah, I've enjoyed it. I think it's

any tips there for parents because my wife speaks Chinese and I speak zero Chinese. So we're actually going to Taiwan right now so we can immerse the kids a little bit and have them learn and understand that there's a world that's probably

even that probably might like. First tip is just, like be be immersed in it Lights like Mont Monica's parents are here. We visit them like every week. They speak Spanish like we go over to their house and, like the world, is in Spanish for several. Yes, Andi, I've always just had an attitude of just like I'm just gonna I was gonna use the language like I'm just going to start speaking poorly and like, I'll get things wrong and I'll get corrected and I'll learn over time. And I just, you know, it's just you just use it, Yeah, if you want to learn a language just, like, just go. You know, I don't

I noticed this interesting thing about kids learning to speak, and then adults learn. Just speak. When kids say something, I'm totally butchered. You go. Oh, that was so cute. You're doing so good, right? With adults. Butcher, you like you. I was like, it's really the same thing for adults. There's this expectation just gonna be awesome. Like day One. I was gonna say everything right?

Yeah, it's like the idea. So I think maybe that's the inhibition that I was clear of, which is this idea. It's like, Oh, yeah. I'm just not gonna care that I'm gonna say something that doesn't make any sense. Or like, I've said things where it's like there was one, like, dinner or something with family. And and I, like, said something. And I used the word I'm like, I've heard that word before.

I think it means kind of this. And like everybody, the tables like Whoa, wait. What does that mean, Not what do you think it means? Like Okay. All right. Not gonna do that again.

But, you know, you just

have to do that like that's just part of learning I guess.

No, that's great. Maybe most were started doing at home too, So All right, you're doing a startup. Kids growing there. You're experimenting with these daycares. Then your wife won some award, right that you guys want. Thio went to Boston

for a year. Yeah, that was a Nieman fellowship, which is a pretty prestigious journalism fellowship, which is just a an opportunity to take a year at Harvard, take classes, take classes at M I t, um and just kind of like re like it, Engaged deeply with the future of journalism and like what you want to do in that space. As a journalist, it's really cool.

Apologised to her friend. I'm actually having her on the podcast right now, but is that how she got the idea to start this new starter? But first it's called the ever gray right? Correct. You ever great correctly. I'm wrong, and I'm probably wrong the way I see it, as is the newspaper for the Snapchat generation. I find it pretty exciting to follow her on Instagram in my case and actually get some updates on what happens in Seattle in this like picture. Where's type away? There's always a way to read more if you're interested, right? But really, it's It's this new media type that actually works that you can consume on the go do it quickly, like it's something that most media companies aren't doing

it. I think it's it's sort of two things. One is it is a what's been brewing a while for for being a project that comes in part from Monica, right? So Monica, cofounded of somebody named Monica, which is, you know, just to increase confusion. And I thought that was a good idea. Um, that the reason that this is so significantly from Monica's like she has been fascinated with the idea of centering journalism around communities actually views journalism. As you know, it's a service, and it's a service to enrich a community. And when you look at doing the work of journalism through that lens, you take a totally different approach.

Then I'm gonna write articles, right or I'm gonna you know, I'm gonna print something and distributed, or I'm going to put as many posts up as I possibly can. You know, they're they're metrics for success are really around. Are they adding value to and engaging with a community and serving it in a useful way that builds an emotional connection between and among the people of Seattle, which is really cool. And it also the twin pork of that is that they're also having an opportunity to be innovative on the business model side of news and, in particular, local news like a lot of the innovation and sort of trouble. The problem, an opportunity in national news, has been pretty thoroughly explored over the past decade, Right? I mean,

there's things larger disruption story that's been, you know, we've seen it through, you know, it started with blog's and things like, You know, I I think of first like Engadget like Tech Blogger because that's my universe. But also there's the Huffington Post. There's the Daily Coast, you know, there's all this stuff which is really put It put its footprint on the national news media side, and a lot of that has not touched really local news. And so the result is you've got this thing where the business model for local hasn't been figured out yet, and so there's a lot of sort of local community journalism, local communities not being served, and this is an attempt to figure that out. And I think they've done a pretty interesting thing where they found a way to build their business on the idea that on what they want to succeed at, which is if they're engaging with the local community, then they can make money by partnering with organizations that want to. I work with that community where they're engaging with its cool.

She's bringing the hyper local

back. I'm sure she would pitch it differently than in May. But, you know, I

just I just wanted to know a little bit about it because I'm sure that's taking a lot of her time as well. And she had to go to all these events and interview people, right? But the fact I guess when the kids are out of school and, uh, Monica goes to all the events, you you do that at home. Just playing kids do that stuff now.

Yeah, I mean way to be fair. We trade off like I go to stuff, too, and, like I have plenty way just launched this thing. Was Dent called passport, where it's sort of we were for six years. We were like a conference that happened once a year. And the idea was, well, you know, it's called Dent because of the Steve Jobs quote. We're gonna put a dent in the universe, and we're like, That's a cool idea. Like,

let's dance the universe on we think. Furthermore, there's this idea that it's somehow genetic or something. It's like, Oh, you know, you're born Steve Jobs were not born Marie Curie or you're not right like there's some genetic lottery you have to win, and we kind of think that's B s. So we're like, Well, let's get a group together of people who are dent in the universe and learn from each other. You know how to better go about our missions, you know, having an impact through our work. And so that was the idea, and we've done that for six years.

Um, but it's a community that has wanted to meet you very quickly. People said, I want to stay. I want the way I feel when I'm at Dent like I want that throughout the year. Like I want to stay engaged with these people. They push me. It's a group like as WeII have people. You go to Dan and you can sit next to an astronaut on one side. And on the other side. You've got an executive director of a nonprofit who's reinventing the entire perspective of how we look at violence. Across from you is an artist who's using gene slicing to try and put a human scent inside of flowers as an art project, right, like you've got justice, this totally interdisciplinary group, which is the point,

because that's how you're going to find a new insight and new perspective on what you're doing. And we want this throughout the year. So we're like, Okay, cool. So we're doing more stuff throughout the year. So it got thes little 35 person, experience driven conflict like many conferences that we're doing focused around like leadership and frameworks for thinking we're doing those in Maui and Telluride like terrible places to go. So we added a bunch of stuff throughout the year, and this year we launched this thing called Passport, which is about, uh, first thing. It doesn't take a lot of the friction out of that, and then we're layering on top of that so it makes it cheaper easier or free in some cases to go to a lot of those events. And then it provides some resource is for people to like coaching,

like, sort of leadership coaching or our executive coaching And, like, we're starting the later more of that stuff on there. So we have, um, circling back. So we have these members in Seattle and other places now, And like we keep finding like we look for ways to bring them together all the times like I'm out because, like, a four passport members, they're gonna go, you know, we're gonna go get together at this happy hour or like, we're all gonna get together at a breakfast in two weeks. And it's like we got a swap.

They, you know, we took the kids in early to school which weaken do last week because Monica, we both went to this, like, networking breakfast thing, which she organized, and there were passport holders there, and I wanted to like, So it's just yes, So we're both out and about, and we trade off like somebody's home with the kids, and it works out pretty well because we have awesome kids and like when you get to like when you're stuck at home with the kids for an evening, like it's actually kind of great, like you get creative like we have a giant whiteboard. So it's like draw letters and, like, What is it? Or draw little pictures. And like Julian's starting to read And like Lena's

right at 35 they can also play together. Now there's almost like, Yeah, five year old can teach the three year old to right way

we're getting. We have hit some seriously interesting. So when you one thing that nobody tells you is when you are when you have, like a like a two year old or a one and 1/2 year old and you're like, OK, it's been a year and 1/2 like I need a beach vacation like Let's go on a beach vacation and you go to somewhere nice. You can crew and you go and you get there and you're like it's not a beach vacation. This is way. Have to constantly watch this young being to make sure they don't fall off the balcony, drown in the ocean, eat lots of sand. Wow, They played with the sand for two minutes, and now they're hitting me with the shovel like it is. It is 100% not a beach vacation. But we were in Napa Valley and a few weeks ago, which is where Dent,

Waas and we're outside of the pool. The hotel pool and I have to get some stuff done and the kids are learning to swim. So we got the swimsuits on and they, like, get in the pool and start splashing around and like, maybe two hours go by and they're just playing in the pool together. And I say I just kind of do some work and I'm like, This changes everything. That means I might get a beach vacation back.

We'll find out

in to find out right? Like I'll report back. But, like, I'm really excited about this idea for Hawaii. Like I might actually get to read a book,

but not like two o'clock in the morning, right? Well, like,

you know, would go sit at the pool or the beach for, like, an hour and read. Yeah, who man

sounds exciting. Matt Schaub. He was early on the podcast and we're chatting. He said his kids around 18 he's at three. Right, but given take it. Oldest one is 18 years old and he said he hasn't had a vacation for longer than, like, two days in 18 years, Basically, and I mean, he's doing startups like you can afford vacations. It's just with three kids doing all the things in schools and everything that he is stuck not being able to go anywhere. And that's not something I'm looking forward to. And I love hearing you say this do this early. You can still do this. Now do more of it while you can, because it's not gonna get any

better. I only know upto you know where I'm at. I have this funny feeling, you know, I feel a bit of like I haven't really parented yet, huh? You know, like the, um, like all of the stuff that I hand like I'm dealing with as a father right now is essentially logistical. But in, like, five more years, there's gonna be, like, actual moral or like, you know,

like like relationship driven, uh, parenting. It's going. It's like I'm gonna have to manage. Can Mike do I? Am I OK with my kids? Friends?

Yeah. you're okay with your kidsfriends fathers. It's a real concern.

I mean, all of this is going to get more complicated as they become more human. Like, right now they're logistical problems. But as they get more and more older, like Julian the other day, like we had, we had friends. We have one thing that I've done the Russians have that Monica and I have done consistently throughout their life, which I think is wonderful, is we have people over for dinner. We have friends over for dinner, adults, adults with other kids, just like we have a you know, pretty good cadence. Once a week,

twice a week people come over for dinner or we go to another friend's house for dinner and, like our kids, are kind of used to the idea of, you know, you have dinner with friends and Julian, for the first time the other day, said, like, Hey, can I have a friend over for dinner? I was like, Yeah, totally like, let's let's figure it out like which one of your friends do you want overtones like I would have met for dinner, like cool like text Emmett's dad, like we set it up,

and then it came over for dinner, and it was like he was loved it on dhe. I just love that model of, you know, making sure that you have social in your life. I

don't know like, well, you're pretty social person, but it also sounds like it helps kids to understand that life is very multidimensional. It's not just you in parents doing these things and the skaters, but also like you have control over all the other things and you can explore. You can bring your friends in it, which is awesome in, you know, five years old. I think that's pretty awesome, right? Yeah, they learning it now. Um, yeah,

I like that. It's a Blinken. That's the our former president, Abraham Lincoln growing up in the log cabin. It's attributed his his famous, famously good storyteller, and the cabin was along this trade route trail, and his father would open the doors at night. People on the trail said, You can have a bed. You can have, you know, give you dinner, and I'll give you breakfast payment with stories. Pay me with the news, and so young Abe would every practically every night, hear the stories,

you know, people traveling from the West to the east and vice versa. And then he would constantly practice re telling those stories to his friends. Like the next day. He would tell him, like 10 times, like I heard the story last night, you know,

and it's like, archaic version of Wikipedia that comes to you, just knocks on the door States as I have something to tell you or stumble upon. Yeah, that's a great idea whether how we can implement that. Well, I mean doing it in a way that would be really great to implement that in the more digital sense in the world we live in, right where you can do that, we're actually interesting content that you're not aware of. It is being pushed to you. Maybe it exists. I'm just not aware of it, but and you know, it's

funny, like I'm totally I am this anachronism that lives and loves in a world of technology, right? Like I'm jealous of your iPhone X like I want and I have I bought the whatever was right prior to that. I bought it, like in the middle of the year about it like six months, Like whatever they do next. Like they haven't done anything that I've wanted, really? For like, three years. No big deal. All right now. And I like that. So, like, I'm a geek is my point,

right? Like I geek out over, like, a apple products and things like that. But I'm also like Like we don't put our phones in the bedroom like our kids. Like, I've got my son playing like Lego Star Wars, but, like, not tons and like, we make a point of, you know, like making sure we like, I guess I'm just I've just realized that, like, especially over the past five years,

I've really disengaged with a lot of like Facebook. Um, you know how much I like Look at my phone. At what? In what circumstances is it okay to even introduce technology into what's going on, uh, like my wife and I go on date night and we, like, put our phones away and, uh yeah, so it's like I'm noticing this really interesting tension in how I sort of am living life. And it was, in other words, like intentionally trying to both, like, model and set,

um, a culture for our kids, right? Like I want them to be, like, totally fluent in technology, because that's they're gonna be their livelihood, right? Like you're gonna have to need. You're gonna need to know how to operate everything through Alexa or like, whatever. Right? Like, that's just gonna be part of life. And furthermore, the better you are at it,

the more native that is to you, the better your prospects are gonna be. So I want that. And I had that growing up like I got a computer in my room. I played with it nonstop, right? But I also want I feel like there's, um it's sort of like public school, right? It's like there's a There's a portion of life that you need to just be life like people and like the social part of things and how I understand how important it is to be able to talk to people, make friends to know if somebody is somebody, you probably shouldn't be talking to you like that. Like all that stuff. Has the doctor, like, talked to you at all yet about,

like, how to talk to your three year old about like, Hey, so, like, your doctor can, like, look at this part of your body, but only if your parents are here and like nobody else. Right? Have you started prompting you about that? Because, like, it's you. Yeah. Yeah, I guess I gotta teach him that.

Like, I don't think so. But, yeah, it's It's a good point. I mean, we got a doctor kid at home so that she feels better about going to the doctor. And like, six months ago, she hated Doctor. Look, in her years now, we really excited to go to the doctor to look in her years, right? So that helps, but you know, none of the weird stuff,

but it makes sense, right? A strange world. You shouldn't need to teach your three year old that. But I guess you should. Yeah.

Yeah. So So, anyways, I don't know where I'm going with that. It's just something that I've been thinking about recently with kids is because, like, we're like, we're setting rules and effectively making a culture as a family around technology, and I'm not sure I don't think anybody has it. Right, But like this, there is There's got to be a balance

right about here. Our recording equipment shut off, so we decided to take a little break. After the break, the story took a

different turn. I remember when we lived in Boston for a year, we didn't have a car. And I remember walking one evening to get groceries or something. Maybe 10 o'clock and I was crossing the street. And there's this group of kids like teenagers, you know, being young, you know, teenagers and like

doing shady things be like being shaped,

right? Yeah, exactly. Being shady. And, you know, in another circumstance in life, I can totally see myself being like I should keep away, like, maybe across the street to the other side. Or, you know, like all those things that people and I remember noticing that, like what was in my head was actually just like looking at them going, like if they start to do anything stupid, I'm just gonna, like,

berate them. I'm just gonna tell them Hey, that's stupid. Or like, Hey, don't do that. That's dangerous or whatever. And like, I had no doubt that that, like, as the adult in the circumstance, they would have just been like, Oh, yes, you know, and it's not.

It was just a moment for me because I realized that I was used to the authority of being a parent, right? Like when you say something to your three year old, it's like, That's That's the rule, like, that's how it is. Um, and I've become used to that. And I was thinking, Man, this must be part of what it feels like to, like be grown up

well. And also, did you have any kids with you at that time now? But even then, write your feel like something inside of you turns and you become more protective over there and you because I know their health

depends on you. Yeah, it's like it's true. There's a part of It's like, Yeah, it's like if they were gonna do something to hurt themselves, I might have been like, Yeah, I'll step in on that like animals. I find that like Maur, I find myself more confident in my like authority, especially with people who I would call kids now. I wouldn't have called you 10 years ago, um, and, uh and also like more yet I think more called to take on a responsible role in society, whatever that means, right? Like in a situation where I see something I'm more willing to step in and that's a bad idea.

I don't know. I think we need a lot more of that. Given everything that's going on in politics in the tech world, right? And I know from personal experience is often times people are really willing to close their eyes on something say, Well, this is not happening to me. Therefore, I can just safely in the word and, you know, let it be. But that is just one example. There are many right? When that happens, the lower at least in tech world, things happen all over the place that I completely ignored. But once you become a parent,

you feel more responsible for the future. Or maybe I feel I think you feel the same way, like you're more responsible to make the dent in the future. Did you help your kids because the place they're going to grow up is gonna be very different, But you want them to be safe, and it's not just depended on, like how you gonna bring them up in their particular circumstances. You have to set the world to be a better place for them when they're older. Um, yeah. I completely forgot where I'm going. This good thing, I can edit this things. So Oh, you know what I wanted to say? Also,

you mentioned when you talk to a three year old, you say, Well, this is how things are. I'm the parent. Can you tell me more about your parenting style? Cause I think parenting styles are huge. Point of contempt in the sense, and they're they're way too many parenting styles out there. If you go on the Internet, you can find anything. Sure,

you know, I've never read anything about. I mean, I guess I read about potty training, right? I mean, I don't know. Probably somebody's got that figured out, but, like, you know, the rest of it, it's not like I've been going through books. Some, like howto like Be like You know, this style of that style or whatever. So I guess I don't I don't like,

have a good, like, way to wait like frame. My answer, right? Like I can't say it's like, Oh, it's like a parent in this style, but, like I generally, uh, air on the side of treating my Children like humans air on the side of forgiveness or or permissiveness. Um, I tend to like I want to impart to my Children skills and beliefs that I think have helped me in my life. And like so, one of those core threads that runs through things is I have always been very,

um, friendly to negotiating. Like if the kids want to negotiate something, my cool, Let's do this right, Like I want you to understand that the world is changeable and you can affect it, and it's not. It's okay to be unreasonable, because being unreasonable is how you get things and how you get things done. And so, like, that's while at times frustrating to me, I feel is worth it, right to have kids that get that you know and have that baked in growing up. It's like so I'm very encouraged encouraging of, you know,

negotiating for extra dessert, negotiating for like, you know, TV time negotiating over like whether we can go to the science center or the zoo or whatever, or, you know, like it ends up being more work for me, and but that's

I love that. I think this is a great point. That is more work for you. It is definitely more work, right, because now a sudden you bring up the humans who complained, won their things. And this is maybe an argument that sometimes have without the parents or even our relatives. Right? That's really easy to tell a kid that do this because I say so. I say so has really zero

Meaning? Yeah, I try not

to give that answer. Yeah, and I love that you bring it up because I would love for more appearance, more dads to sort of get on board with this and be more open to letting their kids not run the show. But participate fully.

Yeah, I mean, it's part of it is like they have toe like my kids need to have, and there was different. That's the other thing. Is this whole like, there's all these studies about nature versus nurture, and they're like, Well, you know, these kids grew up in the same household like their siblings, but they have these things that are different, so we can attribute those two genetics and it's

like tha because

I can tell you I am raising two siblings in the same household with the same parents completely differently, right? Like there's so much difference in vite nurture between my daughter and my son that it's It's almost laughable to say you could do any kind of meaningful study based out of it because they're different people. You know, my my daughter will throw a 20 minute fit if I don't let her turn off the TV. When it is time to stop watching TV, she wants to hit the button.

Three Very familiar, my son never really

never like. No, he was like a za through line like my son is of royal blood and loves to be carried and loves to have things done for him. Would you buckle my seat belt? Would you unbuckle my seat? But would you carry me from here to the car? Would you put my shoes on? My daughter is the opposite. If I do something, if I put her boots on, she will take it off, take off her socks and maybe take off her pants just to emphasize I am going to put on all of these components? Yes, right, So they're just different

humans. I think our kids would get along very familiar with that.

So, yes, I guess that's a bit about parenting styles. I feel like they have to have their little not little they have to have. And they need boundaries, too. It's not like you said, it's not run the show and we've been very firm and very consistent About about it's like No, like, these are the options. You have options. But these air, they and sorry. Beyond that, it's not gonna happen. Andi, we've been pretty pretty good about internal consistency.

Meaning like if I say I'm gonna do something, I will. I will. Then do it. Um, we've been pretty good about, um I'm sorry, Doc's wait, I'm not very good. Plenty smooth. Is the strap clear of the shot professionals? So we've been pretty good about internal. We've been pretty good about internal consistency. And by that I mean, you know, if I say that if you eat the rest of your you know,

chicken on your plate, then you can have dessert. It's like, Okay, then they get dessert. If they do it right, it's like if I say I'm going to read them this book before bed, even if I allow other circumstances to make that inconvenient for me. Look, I said I'd do it. I'm gonna do it right so we try. And when we create, we try and divide between things that are structure and things that are flexible. And when its structure its like its structure, like that's not negotiable, that's not negotiable.

Um, yeah, I don't know. I'm trying to think of anything else that kind of defines the style that I have that we have, because there is some difference between the way Monica and I treat things.

Is it because the way you grew up so that leads to a different

think it hasn't? I think it has 100% to do with our levels of patients. We have different levels of patients and I think a lot of a lot of years more patients me, which is not always good. It makes me more of a pushover, right, but like it's, I think a lot of parenting has to do. It's like patients in stamina. So it's a PM, you know it's bedtime. It's time to get pajamas on. One kid is throwing their pajamas in the sink and thinking it's funny. It is funny. That's the worst part. Like the things that they think are funny are funny and it's like You can't So we're at a restaurant, my family,

our friends, family. They've got kids the same age, and Julian and his friend Maya, We're a Mexican restaurant. And the daughter of my friend Maya says, Hey, this burrito looks like manicotti. Which, first of all, for a five year old? Why isn't manicotti looked like a burrito, right? Like what? Why, how did you get that association back?

Okay, um, and then she realizes that manicotti could be like, Hey, it's like manna potty,

and we're like me on a body that's really clever and kind of funny.

And we've been like trying to get them not to make potty jokes all day. But they're just going, It's man a potty and then laughing their little. And we're like trying not to laugh because we're in a restaurant and

well, but

it's funny, so it's like you can't win.

But that's the thing, though you don't need to win. It's not about winning It's like you're family, and I think that's probably the most important about this style, right? You're not winning. You are winning if you make them into really cool, smart, clever, witty, funny Children, that's winning. Winning right now is just okay. You won one battle, but there's this years ahead. Yeah. Ah,

Mina potty. It's the new catchphrase. Hashtag many body. How do you spell that? I think it's obvious. Well, for the last thing, let's talk back about startups and what you mention about you and money Monica, Monica, Monica raising kids together and how you can manage that. You can share a kid so you can find time. But really, it's more difficult than it sounds. And

I think anybody I mean we as a society have had so much change in one generation in how you know there are people a generation ago in my age who were raised in, like daycares or nannies. But it was like much smaller than what's happening now and like in that space of you know, 30 years, you know so much has changed about, um, the rule. Women haven't society and like what women want to do in their lives and are increasingly able to dio and on DSO there it's tied up in all the questions about, you know, we had a system that was an understood system which sucked in a lot of ways and worked in some ways. And one of the ways it worked was well, we have the like kid money work thing figured out right, like one person does work for money. One person does work for prom. The word that means posterity. One does work for posterity. One does work for money and like together,

you make a unit on its little division of labor and everybody's a happy little economist, right? And then we have. But the world is not like that now, and people have grown up with totally different expectations and desires. And we're realizing as a as a group, that not that doing this doing life requires compromise from all of us on on, like all of those axes. And so, like, I think we're just in this collective thing. Were like we don't really know, like nobody's really figured out. Can you do all of it? Can you can you only do some of it if you could only do some of it like who has to do which sums of it. And I think they're really interesting questions.

And the only thing that I can really say from personal experiences like I definitely feel like there were a few years where shortly after our kids were born, where my wife was really the primary parent of the two of us, you know, she paid more attention to, like the daycare or the nanny stuff and stuff like that. And then the past several years, I've been the primary parent. I think she would say the same thing like and I'm paying more attention to, like the school schedule and what to do with the kids for this. And, you know, are we booking them for swim lessons or soccer lessons, Or like whatever. And like, there's a There's been a sort of a bit of a handoff between that, and I feel like there's it's, um,

another dad had a good term for this. It's emotional versus physical labor. So when you do all the planning, it's emotional because it's really stressful. It's time consuming, but you know, when you actually physically with kids, that's physical So I guess you transition her Been emotional parent to you?

Yeah, and it's Yeah, it's also, I think, is the kids grow older. It's also the emotional parenting, because it's like the question. Okay, so one of the kids is sick, right? Like who is going to be the primary emotional connection for that kid like he's gonna get up six times at night because they threw up three times and I got two more times and they're scared. And then you're just going to sit up with him for a while, right? Like, what's the and, like Monica actually, like talk about it some,

which I think is really important to Dio rather than just like. I mean, that's the whole relationships are a whole different topic, but I think it's like that's been one of the things that has made all of this work really well for has made. All of this work for us is that we do a really good job of like actually talking to each other about about we ever. It's like Look, if you have that thought and you're reading like I should mention, this is like that's the point what you not gonna mention it, right? And we have, like, a cadence of, like, there's some things we haven't figured out We scheduled, like a kid our every week, like the two of us to do,

like the kinds of things that we need, both of us there to figure out for the kids and like, most of the time, we like, skip it because we're, like, busy working. And we're like, I don't have time way have I have a different meeting Like, I have to schedule this over that just like way still struggle with this idea of, like, how do you have you? Because the only real measure of the importance of priority of something in your life is how much how easy it is to make time for it. Because that's all there is. Like you got a set amount of time, right?

She gonna sleep for 1/3 of it. What do you do? The other 2/3 and you know, a bunch of its work bunch of its commitments to friends, bunch of its commitments to family. You know, there's, um yeah, I think there's just communication between the two of us has been pretty important in that and being intentional about trying things has been important. But I don't think we have an answer. I don't know if anybody does.

That sounds like communicating and being aware of that, this is gonna happen. Like I'm thinking here for parents. We're not going through this yet, but might write communicating, telling each other things you want to tell each other. And sometimes you think I'm not gonna hurt the other person's feelings or whatever, but it's like, No, if you don't say now, you're gonna definitely hurt their feelings later, right? Kind of. So So you should get it aloud and plan for it. And yeah, and just to be very proactive about it, I think that's

it. Yeah, I think the main thing is just beat, you know, a bit be aware and intentional about trade offs that you're gonna make your gonna make tradeoffs. You are both going to make trade offs in career and, you know, and time with kids, right? And just as long as you're doing it intentionally, that's the thing I think I've learned.

And how how do you justify the trade offs and the fact that you know, you did something. It wasn't worth it. I guess that's the question. How do you answer it at the end of it?

I don't think that's an important question. Answer. I don't think what? I don't think that's a very useful question. Um, you know, I think, Yeah, it was it. Was it worth it? Is not. I think you know, the important thing is one of you is gonna care more about, like you can divide the issues infinitely. But one of you is gonna care more about, for example, getting places on time,

right? Like you're signed up for swimming lessons. Is it important that we're there right at the start of the swim? Lessons are coming through five minutes late. And if you care more than the other person 25 minutes late if you care if you're the person who cares more than the other person and you never talk about it, you were going to be subject to that tyranny because you were going to take on the work that the other person doesn't care. Take on to make it happen. It's like you need to talk about it. It's not a matter of like Is it worth it to, like, make a trade off? It's just they're gonna be trade offs, talk about it and, like, that's life like there's no is it worth it or not? It's like, No, there's trade off like I'm well, pick one that works for us.

I love it on that note. What do you think? People who don't have kids yet but are about to. Are you planning to have kids? What? What's there to look forward to? The most you're expecting kids?

Yeah, seriously, tickling your kid is like the cool, and you can't do it to anybody else. It's creepy if you do it to like another kid, like don't tickle other kids. But like tickling your kids is like, I think the definition of joy

extends your life,

too. I mean, I don't know about for you, but like that's just if I think of like now, like Esso I was driving the other day. Monica was out of town with the kids for the weekend, and I'm driving to visit my in laws on Sunday afternoon and we're gonna hang out. We're gonna walk around and look at the ducks in the pond and we're gonna, you know, have dinner, and it's gonna be It's like, Fine, it's normal family kids stuff. And I had this moment I was just thinking about, like, what an awesome thing that my kids have given me, that my life is full of this,

right? Like if I didn't have kids and Monica is out of town, I'd play counterstrike for 20 hours, right? And I'd remember to, like drinking soda and order pizza. And like, the the richness that that comes into your life because you are forced by just circumstance to do things with them and with your family, it enriches your relationships that enriches your experiences. It just makes you know we all have so much time on the planet. And, uh, you know that some of the time could be better than other other time. And like, it's just so much richer with kids.

Would you say you would put a dent in the universe?

Yeah. Having a kid, man. That's the biggest dent there is. A human can change. Everything

only takes is the one. Thank you for coming to the podcast. Yeah, thanks. It's a real pleasure chatting with you. Lots. of great advice here for parents on maybe kids as well Who's struggling with their parents. You know, uh, I would love to have your on again so we can talk more about some topics and looking forward, just he was gonna happen to the conference, to the new pass and in general, seeing you creating the dent in the Seattle universe. Yeah. Thanks. Thank you. Been read. It's been read.