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🧔Matt Wallington. Dad's journey through a difficult divorce and how to come out one top.

Rad Dad, hosted by Kirill Zubovsky podcast.

In this episode we talk to my friend Matt Wallington about his experiences of raising kids while at startups, then at Amazon, and how those impacted him, his kids and his marriage. We also talk about getting through a divorce, what to expect, and how to do it quick.

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time goes by really fast and then the heat of the moment. You might wish that your kids grow up fast, too, so you can do all the things you wish you could do. But every moment is special, and if you rush through it, you'll miss the moment, which is now. In this episode, we talked to my friend Matt Wallington about his experience in phrasing Kids while startups Bennett, Amazon and how those impacted him, his kids and his marriage. You also talk about getting three divorce, what to expect, and I have to do it quick. What? Come to the right way?

First things first. Can you tell us about what it's like to be a single guy? Working startups, having all the time in the world and then going into more start ups as a dad with two kids with responsibilities and then transitioning to ah, large company with all the support you getting there right now?


Yeah, it's funny. I was actually I've pretty much been a single guy during the periods of my life where it was, you know, it would have been more convenient toe not be a single guy, and then I was a dad at the Times that it was absolutely the worst time to be a dad. I wasn't starters for five years, but for four of those, I was a dad. And so obviously, like, you know, you would know yourself being and startups, um, trying toe, you know, be there for your kids is always tough.

You're always you're always feeling that motivation or filling, like if you're spending time doing anything other than we're kind of start up your spending time that you could be trying to make your start up. You know the success. It's hard enough to to make these things work, and any time that you're not spending doing it, you feel kind of this weird guilt and weird, like feeling like you should be spending more time working on your startup. And so it was kind of my life is a little inconvenient that, you know, work it until for eight years, and I had all the time in the world outside of work, and I wasn't I didn't have a family at that point. And only when I was in start ups and wished I could spend, you know, 100 hours a week working on startups that then now had this kind of majorly competing priority that wasn't just competing in the sense that it that it required my time. But I also wanted to spend more time on it.

But I also I wanted to spend more time. I start up and so oftentimes, which I could figure out howto invent more hours in the day. And unlike unlike a startup, when it doesn't work out, you can kind of just throw in the towel and go work on something else with your kids here, you're kind of building their future.


So you're said it's probably


not something you want to take lightly.


So that's that. What you think parents in this kind of stressful work life balance should do better. Two. To treat themselves better to help them. Their kids do better. Is there anything in your experience


that would have helped? I think for myself? I'm I. The one thing that I struggle with is I kind of have more of, ah, one track mind like when I get focused on something, I feel an obligation to take care of a lot of different things, but it's really hard for me, too, you know, Put the right amount of attention and effort into the things that aren't top of mind at the exact, you know, second, And so if I'm super involved in a start up and, you know, maybe we have some major new customer that we're trying to sell or some big launch that we're tryingto have happen. I get very single minded focus on that,

and it's easy for me to, you know, kind of take a little bit more of a, uh I know everything else kind of goes temporarily to the back burner, and I justify that by thinking, Oh, well, you know, we're gonna launch this thing and then I'll shift and focus. You know, maybe I'll focus on my kids primarily. And then we can just kind of cruise and start up for a while. But, you know, course reality sinks in. You launch the product,

you still have some issues, you still got to go. So more customers and it just is a kind of endless cycle. It's never, you know, you always think that after a major launch or after some major win, you're gonna have some time to kind of go re focus on the things in your life. But very rarely is that actually workout. You very rarely get get, you know, six months to go before you have to go start working on the next


thing, right? So if you listen to sort of voices from Silicon Valley, then it seems like you basically give up in your kid's life family, wife and everything and just go do you start of which is insane knowing that most arms fail. So you're basically setting yourself up to work for 10 years on something that it's most likely to fail? Um, on the other hand, you could actually take a more balanced approach kind of base camp like way. All right. Maybe less of a $1,000,000,000 company right now. But, uh, actually happy, successful team that all works together if you want to do it again, which way do you think it's wing?


If I were to do it again, I would definitely go more towards that passed. The problem is that it takes it takes you a lot of failure and a lot of blood, sweat and tears to learn that. So it's kind of one of those things where, you know, your parents are always trying to, you know, have you learned from their mistakes? But sometimes you just have to make your own mistakes. It's kind of the same thing. Sometimes you have to kind of, like lived that life for a while, fail a couple startups and realize, you know, maybe my priorities were not exactly where they should be. And so you know,

when you get a little bit already struck to realize what's really important, and you start to kind of focus a little bit, reach, reshape your focus towards what really matters. But I feel like it's not something that you can has it young, you know, right out of college or high school or where we are sought something that you you always think, you know. Oh yeah, I know that I know that that's what happens to you, or that's what happens to most people. But that won't be what happens to me like somehow I'll do it differently. Somehow I'll be the the one person you hear about on TV that figured out how to make this work, you know? Yeah,


personally, however tiring it is to have kids, and of course it's tiring and of course, is difficult. But all the joy that you get in your life from your kids and everything you can do with the kids is totally worth it. In my opinion, however, there are a lot of people who'd say they just don't want to have kids. They're perfectly find their way. They are, and kids is just not something they want in their life. For somebody thinking about having kids or maybe not having kids and trying to make this decision, what do you think might help kind of sway them one way or the other? So


a couple things that one thing I would say is that you know, the people that I know see people who have they always stood by their decision to never have kids. They don't want kids, they want nothing to do with it. And, you know, I've always kind of thought, Yeah, you know, you're saying that now that you're a little young, but when you get older, you'll start to kind of realize that you really do. Come on, you know, I like naively kind of thought that and now they're still in my life and they still stand there, still are 40 years old. They still stand by their decision.

And so, you know, I feel like, you know, everybody kind of has there their things in life. And I'm sure that, you know, our upbringings all kind of shaped our views on this thing. My thought is, you know, it's kind of like any any amount of work in life is like your you do work. You're kind of doing something that maybe isn't, you know, particularly fun or exciting in the moment. But you're doing it because you're looking for some sort of outcome out of it. And I really think with kids it's like the first,

especially the first couple of years where they don't have any personality at. They're just these babies that requires constant work and constant. And you came and turn your head for a minute and you really get nothing back for that. Like they don't have the fun, cute personality they're not, you know, coming up to you, giving you a hug and saying, I love you, Daddy, because they can't even talk yet on, really. They just are just crying and keeping you up at night. But you're doing that because, you know, as they get a little bit older all of a sudden,

you kind of like one day all of a sudden you look at your kids and go, Oh, wow, like that was the most amazing thing I ever did. But it takes a long time. It takes a while to get there, and you kind of have to, like, put a lot of effort in before you can get it back. And the thing that I worry about with some of these people who are like, I just want everyone to have kids. This is just me personally, like, I know I would feel this way. So I'm kind of like thinking of other people would, too.

But maybe maybe they're just different is what happens when you know your kids would be grown up and maybe they're like 15 20. And you know, like I love to do a lot of things with my dad like we like to go hiking, looked through all these different things. I couldn't imagine being, you know, 56 years old and not having that in my life. And just like being alone and so having. I think having the kids and putting putting the effort in. And you know, it's tough at first, but I'm come on a couple of years. I feel like you once were like 2 to 3. Like they start building these amazing personalities and they just become these like bundles of joy and not to say they're easier, you know, you're out like, you know you're home free. But there's it just kind of dawned on you that it was all worth it.


So divorce.




How was it? It's


getting to the fun part, you know, part of the problem of being kind of going back to the startup founder part of being a starting front, or is it really takes somebody that is willing to go on without Reid and understands it? I think when I got married, like we we kind of, uh you know, we kind of rushed into moving in together, and my wife already had a son of the time. His biological father passed away before he was born, and so I very quickly kind of became his dad, and so that kind of like hurried us into you know, furthering our relationship faster than we would have normally. And so we ended up kind of moving forward with our relationship without really, like fully vetting it over a period of time. And I think, you know,

at that period of time, my my wife, um I think took for, you know, as I was explaining, that am starting these companies and this is what I do. And this is what this means. I think it was kind of like she kind of thought like, Oh, this is like a phase in your life. You're kind of doing this thing for a little while. But that'll kind of go away and you know, you'll I'm okay with supporting that for a little bit. And I don't think she realized like this is what I do And this is what I love. So that was kind of a tough realization for both of us in that, you know,

I I'm the type of person where I feel like I could just handle everything like there's just more hours in the day. If I just need to not sleep, it's not sleep. If you know I can, I can be a could be a great startup founder from, you know, 989 in the morning until eight o'clock, nine o'clock at night. And then I could be a good dad. But there's really not being a good dad after nine o'clock, your kids already in bed. So here you're kind of like making some choices here that are tough. And, um, you know, unfortunately,

my wife really, you know, she she kind of I don't think she really understood what she was getting into. And I don't think I really understood what I was getting into. And, um, you know, we made it work for three years, and the first year was was kind of great because we're still in that, like, early stage. Not really. You know, like, we're kind of talking, talking ourselves out of any of the potential issues.

And then, you know, as your two and three really started kicking in, we started kind of butting heads about, like, head on, and, uh, it kind of got to a point where I was kind of being asked to give up Why? Like what I do and what I love, which is startups. And it really started cutting me down because I just felt like I'm a bad dad and a bad husband about it. Pretty much everything, except for starting companies. Right? And so,

like, what am I doing that I make the wrong decisions in life either? A. Should I be not starting companies and just go get a job and make a successful living Have a happy life with my wife and kids? Um, but then I kind of started. I tried that, and I started kind of realized that, you know, it's that actually caused even more problems because part of part of the reason our marriage was working is we were not together most of the day. And as we started to get together more and more as I kind of weaned off of startups one, I was kind of depressed because I wasn't. I wasn't doing something that was interesting and innovative and exciting to me anymore at work, but I was spending more time with my kids. But then also, like,

I think the problems that we had in our marriage were just, you know, there was more opportunity for them to come out and for us to start butting heads because we're spending more hours the day together as we kind of got more in line with our schedules. I think we just started rise that we just really didn't have a whole lot comment and we were just butting heads all the time. And it just was kind of unhealthy place for my kids to because, you know, we're trying as hard as possible not to fight in front of them. But it's difficult, you know. Now we're in the process of getting divorced, and we've been doing that for almost a year now, and, uh, it's been a really rough here. But I think we're I feel like I have a better relationship with my kids now that I've ever had, because I feel like the times that I'm with them.

It's me with them instead of me Kind of is, you know, the fourth person on the rim while she took care of the kids and I was kind of their toe toe help out. So, um, obviously a lot of negative parts to it, a lot of rough parts. A lot of it's been a hard year, but I'm kind of starting to see some of the light, a team of the tunnel, and I'm starting to feel like I'm building a better relationship.


What would you think could help parents kind of in your situation to take care of it faster, to help the kids get through it and in general, make it easier emotionally on themselves and, you know, figure things. Alice Ikan seeking. Get back to spending time with your


kids and connect with your kids. And you mean figure, figure out, like getting through the divorce, Or you mean figuring out, like, how to make it work?


Well, it doesn't sound like you would have figured out. I mean, correct me if I'm wrong, right? Assuming that you can't make it work, how do you cut loose ends quickly


so that you can get back to I think I think you're right. I think you know, it's kind of one of those things where I'm sure we've all been there where a friend is breaking up or getting a divorce or something. And it's always really easy for us to look from the outside and say, like very laser vision. Tell them exactly what they should do it, like solve this problem, right, because we don't have the emotion attachment to that situation. And so we're thinking very clearly we're making good decisions that they should do, and we're kind of giving them good advice. But then you know they don't do it. We're kind of Why're the where the likes, you know, why aren't they doing this? And it it's because, like obviously when you're in the situation,

you have this emotional piece to it that really clouds everything it makes. It makes you realize it's actually way more complex than it really looks from the outside. So I mean, that said I would say, You know, emotions really were tough for me and kind of forced me to try toe. I don't know. It's tough to say that I should have tried to get a divorce sooner. You know, I should have realized or this of that. I mean, I don't want to advocate that, you know, you should just give up and move on at the first sign of trouble or anything like that. But when you've realized that like it's, you're just two completely different people with two completely different needs in life,

and you want to okay, you're going into for directions, and especially in the case when you have kids. And I mean it's tough, because when you have kids, you feel like yours. You should just try to make it work at all costs. But I grew up in a family where my parents fought like my whole entire life, and I actually wish they would have got a divorce when I was when I was a kid, because I would've rather seen when it was like for them to meet the right people in their life actually have loving relationships rather than just fighting and staying together for the benefit of the kids. And so I would say, You know, really what it boils down to is like trying to look into the future and trying to see like, Is this something that we could work together on? Can we go to counseling and try to make it work? We tried to go to counseling and ended up in my case,

being like, you know, she she literally said to the counselor that I'm here to make sure that Matt has the help that he needs to tryto make this work. So she basically came right out and said like I don't need counseling. He needs counseling. But I'm here because it was the only way he would go And it's the you know we're here so that he can get the help he needs.


All right, that sounds housing. So in other words, like if you if you know it's probably going two hands, you should just end it and not, like, not prolong and just figure out how to You should've sold things.


And I mean, I wish I wish I would. I mean, we almost got a divorce several years ago, and it would have everything would have been so much easier if we did. But, you know, again, it's kind of like I was saying earlier, like sometimes you have to learn these things the


hard way. Well, I mean, statistically, you know, you're not the only personnel. They're doing this. So I guess it's not that uncommon. I remember friends in high school whose parents got divorced, you know, when they were like 15 0 18 whatever the time was right. But parents stay together just for the kids and eventually divorced. That's that's almost silly because then you're going to this fake household where everything is built on a fake promise that Yeah, what does that teach your kid? And that's the


thing I want to like. Stress here is like I said, like, I grew up in that in that situation, and I because of that, I was terrified to get divorced because I felt like that's just what you're supposed to. You're just supposed to make it work at all costs and what I've kind of started realizing I was. I always freaked out like my kid's going to be, like, devastate, you know, like, I know they're gonna be devastated the short term, but they're gonna be devastated long term. They're gonna have major issues, you know? Are they gonna you know,

um, I stunting their ability to live a happy life, right? And one thing I've come to realize is one I have, ah, way strong relationship of my kids now than I ever have, because my when I get to spend time with them, it's on my terms. We get Thio, you know, actually get to spend time with them instead of, you know, it's it's kind of like my ex wife really shaping and controlling how this situation happened, that I was just kind of there and I didn't really have any saying What's gonna happen?


Well, now you have responsibility, be there and do something with them. So, like you, in a way, I mean, not just your exploited, but you also have to like think for yourself, and you have to plan things that you have to be responsible for. You have to be in charge, so it's almost better for you as a person because, like now your startup, which is your kids, we're in your hands and you get to drive it, and that's the other thing.


And I'm not like saying this is a great situation or not. But Iceman less days with my kids. But the days that I do spend, I feel like the time is way better spent, and I may mar quality time and also the fact that I do spend, you know, I spent a lot of days of work and then I go spend a lot of data. I spent a couple of days with my kids. I feel like when I'm with my kids, then I am 100% focused on being with my kids. So I'm not multitasking checking my email, you know, obsessively and all the stuff that I used to d'oh when I was with my kids, which made me feel like I really was kind of lonely halfway there is that And so now when I'm with my kids, I'm I'm actually, like, 100% focused on spending time with them and my kids,

you know, they went through a period of time. That was a little rough for a while, they didn't really understand, especially my older one. My younger one was so young that he just kind of was you. We could have moved to Africa, you know the difference. But like my older one, like, he really struggled for a while. But I would say that, you know, honestly, not only have they kind of gotten back to normal, I would say that they're actually better than they were back then on.

And I'm sure that's not 100% true across the board. But I think, for the most part, yeah, I know that my kids would love for me to come move back into the house and you know us be a happy family again, but I think that obviously, that's not possible. So if I were to come back and we were to somehow make things work, we'd be right back overtime to right back to where we were. I think you know, we have a We have a better life now. My kids are much happier. The time that I get to spend with him is quality time and as they get a little older, you know, right now it's kind of like, you know,

I get to spend a couple of days with um and I get to talk to him a couple times on the phone as they get older and they, you know, can like, pick up the phone and call me themselves and not have to wait for our, like, predetermined times that my ex wife will call me. I think it'll just get even better because you know, we'll still keep a really close relationship, even the times we're not together and it will be on our terms instead of, you know, the terms that were set by somebody else


makes sense, and maybe it's actually something to work into your terms like when you get divorced to work those terms into the contract, so to speak, right to make sure that you kids get to call you, you get to stay in touch and everything.


Yeah, and fortunately for me, like my ex wife is not like she. She's not trying to withhold the kids from me like she actually like. The unfortunate part of our situation is that she's important with the kids, and I'm in Seattle working. And so there's there's a distance problem. So it's not like I could just go over and pick him up on a random Tuesday afternoon and go get ice cream. I wish I could do that. But, um, and and honestly, like the thing I'll say about my ex is that she she feels the same way, like she wishes that I could spend more time with the kids as well. So she's been great in that regard, and, you know,

she has no issue with me talking to kids more often or not. The thing is, the kids were just still that young age where there they don't they don't think outside of what's happening here and now and so they're like with They're with me. They're thinking about being with me right here and now they're 100% focused on that. If there with her and kind of they're doing their thing than there, 100% focused on that. And so there isn't. You know, I think as as they get a little older and can kind of think further further out there in the next couple hours and can multi task more and kind of, You know, I think that we'll probably have more, you know, periods of time where they might call me at night on nights that aren't really my time, you know, my night and so forth, but right now it's it's very segmented,

but the segments that I get them, I have them 100% there, 100% focused, and they love spending time with me, and I feel like I have a close relationship with him.


On that note, let's pause about kids for a second. What I really want to know is, how much do you like working at Amazon? I hear mixed reviews. Some people say it's great. Some people hate it. What's your take?


Here's my thing is that I feel like in a lot of companies you'll find managers who will give you a normal amount of work. And just, you know, they won't continue to give you more Amazons very much a place where you have to learn to say no. And you have to learn to prioritize the things that make sense to dio and be able to say no and be able to. De Pirate has the things that don't make sense. Studio. There is for any given employees there three times more things that that person could do. Then there's hours in the day they're doing, and so it's kind of really up to you to decide. Managers aren't typically. I mean, they're they're looking out for your best interests, but they're not typically gonna tell you if you're saying Yeah, sure, I'll take that and run with it. I'll do it.

I don't I don't know that a manager is really gonna sit down and say, You know what? Like you've worked a lot of hours this week, like, how about you? Don't take that. We'll say, Well, yeah, If you want to take it cool, take it like please do That's great, you know, But if you would have said no, they would have been okay with that, too. And so it's kind of up to you to decide what you should D'oh.

And if you just say yes to everything, then you're definitely going to get overwhelmed. But it's kind of like you. You kind of did that to yourself. But a lot of people aren't used to that because a lot of companies aren't that way. And you just feel like you're obligated to say yes to anything your manager tells you. And so you will just say yes, yes, yes, and normally and in a lot of companies, the manager just get it. Keeping that to a certain number of hours a day. Residue Amazon. If you just say yes to everything, then you'll work the full 24 hours a day. And you know you'll,

of course, be respected for that. But you know, it's really it's really up to you to decide. You know what the important things are? Obviously, you know, depending on how senior U on the company is, how much is really up to you to decide. But the more senior you get. I mean, you could you could work 15 hours a day because you just you just said yes too many times. And you know, it's really about prioritizing and trying to figure out what you actually can accomplish and what are the most important things to accomplish and focusing on those and saying no when


you need to catch so on one hand, you really should motivate yourself to work. Carter, On the other hand, you should really be smart about how you work harder, and you need to remember that like it's on you to decide what's important, how you do it. And I mean, of course, if somebody's working twice as hard as you do, they'll get promoted. But you choices are. Either you do it like they do it or you do it less. But then you know what consequences sort of speak it comes with And, um, but, you know,

I'm also curious. So that said, you're now in that I mean, you're working Seattle. Your kids live in Portland. You kind of live in between, you know, you drive there back and forth to spend time with them. It's not ideal, but it's It's working right. And there's a lot of talk about what companies can provide to help employees and companies like Google and Facebook provide free lunches, being bags v. R, whatever you have it and people are still unhappy. I mean, I don't remember ever talking to anyone,

anywhere who's been happy with a job like extending your time. Uh, Amazon is notorious about not doing any of that. Amazon says, Hey, you want food? Go outside and get it from food truck, which is great, right? Great food truck thing outside of Amazon so forth. But they pay well on dhe. People work hard and people, whether you stay for a year, 20 years, you end up leaving with the resume. That's better than it was before.

What do you think? You know, If Amazon could do anything tomorrow, what would help Dad's parents? You know who have kids who could, who would like to spend more time with them to do that, given,


you know, it's funny that you mentioned the free food and all stuff. I feel like I'm actually kind of shocked. The Amazon doesn't do more of that because I feel like there's there's a perceived value that's higher than the actual cost of in some of those things. Like how many people have you ever Matt that are like, Oh, but Google offers free food like that's That's the reason they're there, you know? It's like, I mean, if you're talking about launch, maybe like 8 10 bucks a day, like compared to like, you know, as a fairly senior software guy like your each 10 bucks a day isn't really like a significant increase in your salary. So, you know,

I feel like there's this perceived cost like your, um, you're getting something more than 8 to $10 a day that they're actually giving you, like of Amazon decided. Hey, we're gonna give you We don't want to give free food, so we're going to give you an extra 8 to $10 a day like that would have less effect emotionally to you than the actual free food. So I'm kind of surprised they don't do it from that perspective. And it will be interesting to see what happens in Seattle because Google's building a big campus in South Lake Union right by the Amazon headquarters and Facebook is moving in there pretty pretty. Bigas. Well, so it'll be interesting to see if, um, that kind of competition for employees, intense pies and stress to make Amazon rethink some of those things. But,

um, but I think of the end of the day, like most people, that name was on that I talked to about this. So yeah, I mean, it'd be kind of nice to have free food, but $8 isn't really making a huge difference in


my life. And you guys don't have


time to eat anyway. And the thing is like put bean bags in my office. I can put being bags in my office for for my employees right now. And I guarantee you none of them would sit in and be like a cool like they probably tell her friends. Oh, we got bean bags in our office and then they realize, Okay, that sounded cooler than it, actually, yes. You know, I mean, like, and if if my employees told me they want to be in bags, I get being backs. But to answer your question, what could Amazon do to kind of make it,

you know, little bill of our dad friendly or make it easier for for us to kind of have a family. I don't really know. I mean, I feel like it's kind of like we you know, it's like it's like being in the military, like, you kind of know what you're signing up for. Your gonna go fight wars and you might die, right? But you're kind of like doing it because you want to, like, you know, do it for the country or save the world or whatever the causes. I feel like when you work for a company like Amazon, you're kind of buying into the vision that,

you know, you could go work for a company that's been around for 50 years and they're not really innovating. And they're kind of like slowly dying. And you could probably have a much easier life. And you have more time for your family and you know, you, you you die still make a decent amount of money and be able to have a little bit higher quality of life probably. But I feel like the type of people that weren't gonna coming like Amazon are a little bit more of the kind of like startup mentality type people where they truly get enjoyment out of their work and they want to be working on things that air. They feel like they're actually, you know, to use a cliche term like changing the world in some way, shape or form. Like just they feel like what they're doing is more important than just making a paycheck. It's your kind of trying to bring some new, exciting technology for that's gonna make, you know,

change something about the world that you know, used to be a certain way. And now you're making it easier, better, different. And sometimes, unfortunately, it doesn't make things better. Like I am a little worried about this. This making everything run by robots and automation and self driving cars and all these types of things like, I am a little worried about what that's gonna do for for the unfortunately for the for the people that really you know, they have a certain skill set that they can D'oh! They're not super adaptable. It's not gonna be super easy for them to just give up their old career and move on to something new. Um, so that'll that'll be interesting to see how that works out.

But, um, you know, I feel like working for a company like Amazon. You're kind of giving up some of those things a little bit, you know, like the flexibility to, you know, leave work it two or three. I mean, I can leave, work it two or three and anybody that I know. What Amazon Comely market. Two or three. It's that they almost don't want to leave work of two or three. That's that's the same thing with me.

Like I work a lot of hours. I probably work 60 hours 60 70 hours a week because, you know, I probably work a good 50 hours week in the office, and I work a good 10 plus hours at home. But I don't do that because I have some manager telling me how to do it. I just do it because I enjoy it and I get fulfillment from it, and that's what I like to d'oh on. I feel like that's how the majority of people that work for companies that are


so you get fulfilled by Amazon.


I suppose so.


Well, it's good to hear that he's dick, you being happy on that


level so I mean, if I wasn't doing that, I'd probably be like off starting another company and working just as many, if not more hours


anyway. So I probably it's kind of it's


kind of like a you know, I hate to say it because I feel I feel a lot of guilt around that. Like Why? Why is my choice not to go try to spend more time with my family? But I just truly love what I do. And I feel like I spent a good amount of time with my family, and I feel like they're okay with the amount of time I spend with him. And I feel like I don't know, I feel like I'm still sold in my life.


So out of all the companies he worked for with found that etcetera, is this a pretty good solution? Thio Work Family. I know Jeff popular is this expressions that of work, life, balance, its work, life equilibrium, which I love. I think it's so would you say it's It's the best work, like equilibrium so far,


I Yes, well, yeah, I would say that my time it intel was the best life equilibrium in my time and start ups was the best work equilibrium in a way, like it's like And until I, you know, work was something that we all kind of did because we had to do it. No offense to Intel, like it's a great company. They're doing great things. I just wasn't really passionate about the work that I was doing there. And maybe, you know, I'm sure there's jobs there that I could have taken that what I would have been more passionate about. I just either didn't know about them. I didn't. I didn't have the ambition to go try to find them.

I was more focused to that point in my life on getting start up off the ground Startup was all about like, I'm super passionate about what I'm doing, but I'm also I feel like when you have that sense of ownership, you kind of have this guilt. Like I said earlier, like, you kind of have this guilt where you just feel like you should be working all hours of the day. I feel like I kind of took that too extreme and got completely consumed by it, and so I kind of saw both extremes where I saw the job that I'm kind of going to because I need to pay track and maybe not too excited about. Um and I made good money, but I was really more focused on that point. I didn't have a family, so I was more focused on just spending time with friends or snowboarding or buying boats and doing all this other fun stuff that, you know, Um, I did as a 25 28 year old person on dhe,

then starts really about really buckling down and doing what I was passionate about, what I loved and putting my all into that and really kind of going overboard on that. And I feel like Amazons really kind of the best of both worlds. And since that the vory fast moving, they're very forward thinking that they're always trying to innovate. So very start up like qualities. But they're also a bigger company that, you know, if you like, in a start up. If if you're one of five people in the company and you screw something up, or maybe you don't work quite as many hours and win over the certain client like that, could drastically affect the business. An Amazon. It's at least a big company. So you know,

if you take a vacation from time to time or you want to take a day off work, the company is probably not gonna go out of business because of it. So I feel like it's a It's a great place to, um, still kind of. It's a good transitionary place for startup founders who kind of have that drive to still feel like they're doing something interesting and useful and kind of forward thinking and pushing forward technology, but still be able. Thio, you know I have a life and not have it completely, all encompassing an all consuming


so well, I know you know everything you know now, huh? Think of parents expecting parents, expecting dads and parents with new kids. What advice would you give them that would improve that life 100 times?


A couple things I would say is one time goes by so fast and so you know, don't take it for granted. I've caught myself many times thinking to myself, You know, it's great that I have this newborn, but I just wish they were like three so they could, you know, communicate with me and go do fun things with me. And then they're three, and you're kind of like, Oh, man, But like when they're five, like I could take him to Disneyland, you know, whatever. Whatever the thing is that you're kind of waiting to do next,

it's like I think at some point you kind of realize I just need to enjoy the here and now. And since I've been able to kind of re focus my thoughts on that, I realize that, you know? Sure, when they're when they're five, that'll be great, too. But they're three now, and I wantto do all the things that makes sense to do with them on their three and have a blast to me. That's that's one thing. The other thing I would say ISS, you know, it's really easy to before you have kids, especially toe have all these ideas about how you're gonna be and, oh,

you know, I'm never gonna give them any sugar. And I've never known watch TV and all the stuff. I feel like that just kind of some of that stuff's kind of goes out the window when you realize that. You know, it's one thing to not let him watch TV because you want to do what's right for them. But it's another thing to say. You know what if if I if I let him watch TV, that at least gives me, like an hour to where I can just calm down, relax and reset and read fresh myself. And if I don't do that, I'm probably just gonna go crazy and start like yelling at some point. And I want to like, uh like, I feel like you as a parent like you need sometimes toe,

don't feel guilty filming. You need to take that time. Maybe it's not watching TV. Maybe it's, you know, you're your spouse, air a baby sitter, a friend or somebody can help out. But I feel like you know, it's easy to feel like you. Your feelings and your thoughts and your needs don't matter anymore. And it's all about them, and it is to some extent. But if you don't take care of yourself and if you don't make sure that you're mentally like refreshed and ready to go, then I feel like you're kind of doing a disservice to your kids anyway, You need those brakes so that you can kind of come back and actually give it your all rather than if if you're always kind of operating at 1/3 capacity,

I feel like you're not doing your kids really a service. So I would say, um, the big things for me, the big warnings for me are Are those things mainly, which is, you know, take time to kind of re charge? Don't feel guilty about it. Your kids air gonna be okay without you for a little bit. Um and, um you know, don't take it. Don't always, like, wait for them to get a little older because of things that you feel like It will be easier and you won't be changed diapers anymore.

And you'll build a go take a fun vacation was all stuff like that stuff will come, but you know you're never going to get them. You never gonna get that three year old kid back again. It's once they're not three anymore. They're never three again. So take advantage of a camp. Don't Just on Lee. 100% focus on your kids at your own health and mental health and physical health. It's easier toe stop working out. Stop going, hiking and, you know, stop eating healthy and stop doing all these things because you feel like Oh, I just have to have to be there for my kid. I have to do everything I have to do. And that works great in the short term. But it's not scalable. It's not long term solution.


Excellent. All right, well, thanks for being here. Thanks for chatting. Thank you. And if listeners have any questions to you, I will point them to the website.


Sounds good. We'll do it again. So happy to be here. Thanks


for having me. Thank you. Thank you for listening to the rad Dad show. If you enjoyed this episode, please visit our website at riot Dad show dot com and see if there are any other episodes you might want to listen to. And if you have a minute, please give us a review in iTunes. That really helps to let other folks know about this podcast. See you soon.

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