Welcome back to the Arctic charm podcast. I'm A J and I'm Johnny and this is part two of our Adam Grant episode this week. There's a little bonus extra content for you. And if you have not listened apart one of this episode, please go back and do so that dropped on Monday Today we're gonna break down networking in this environment. How do we network effectively online as well as what out of Grant has to say about his fantastic book give and take in the last seven years since that book was published. So gonna hop right to it first, tell you a little bit about the art of charm. We are a podcast dedicated upping your social skills, a show where we bring you actual tips and strategies to supercharge your social skills and turn that boring small talk into smart talk. Surround yourself an army of high status individuals to grow your social capital and unlock your hidden prisma to crush it in business, love in life. And if you're enjoying this show, subscribe and tell your friends about it. Now, if you're looking to make your quarantine more productive, check out our core confidence group mentoring program.

You get access to our network with daily live videos from the team as well as each week. You'll meet on Sunday mornings at 9 a.m. Pacific with your virtual group coaches, and you get weekly challenges that push you outside of your comfort zone. Grow your confidence and deep in your connections with friends, family and co workers and every mission is Corona virus quarantine friendly so you don't even have to leave your house. We cover topics like dealing with negative emotions to finding your values, living in the present moment, identifying your limiting believes and achieving crystal clear goals. Join a group of support of a like mind of Arctic char ministers to bond and grow. During this crisis, you can expand your network and connect virtually to reach your true potential. Our next group kicks off April 26th at 9 a.m. Pacific. We are accepting applications now as seeds are very limited to learn more and apply today had on over to the art of charm dot com slash corps. That's the art of charm dot com slash c o R E. Now let's get started with Part two of our Adam Grant episode. Adam is a psychologist and author specializing in organizational psychology,

and he's the author of one of our favorite books of all time. Give and take a revolutionary Approach of Success. We're gonna be discussing that book and what's changed since it was published today. Adam is a professor at the Wharton School of Business at U Penn, where he also has received his tenure at the age of 28. He's the host of work life podcast, and this is his third time on our show now with this uncertainty, especially with the lack of job security that we're all facing. Some of our listeners have already lost jobs and are concerned about finding new jobs in this environment, and some of us are being furloughed and and told not to come into work. What can we d'oh with this opportunity to attempt to further in advance our career and grow our network? Obviously we're not used to a situation where we're this isolated, and we can't just go to those events and rub shoulders and make connections with

people. Let's see, when I think about this, I always think of Adam Rifkin Adams, one of the stars in my first book, Give and Take, and Adam Is is one of the most generous givers I know. He's also remarkably good networker. He was named Fortune's best networker some years ago when he had more connections to powerful people than anyone on lengthen, including the CEO himself. Which is not bad. You know what? I asked Adam how he met these people. He said, Well, it's really simple. I've just spent my whole career and most of my life doing five minute favors.

I thought this was such a simple and actionable idea that you don't have to be Mother Teresa or Gandhi to do something for someone else that you could just microloan your time, your energy, your skills or your connections to other people for a few minutes a day. And I think that's one of the most powerful ways to build relationships. So, you know, Adam's advice is you do a few five minute favors every day, and over time you feel more connected. You're able to add more value to other people's lives, and you end up building new relationships in the process. Many of those people then we'll go on to pay it forward because they feel a sense of gratitude. And they wanna try to model the way of being in the world that you've just introduced to them or maybe reinforced for them. And I think that I might just add it a little bit and say, My read of some of the evidence is we might be better off instead of doing you know, a few five minute favors everyday picking one day a week as our five minute favor day. Or is our generosity day their experiments with people doing random acts of kindness by Sony Luber Mercy and her colleagues and then people helping each other randomly in the workplace by Ryan Duffy and his colleagues,

where they essentially show the same thing that people who do one random act of kindness or one act of helping a day it has no effect whatsoever on their mood or their energy might help other people. But it's useless for you. In contrast, when people pick Thursday and say, I'm gonna stack up all five of those acts of generosity and one day they get a significant and sustainable increase in their energy and happiness, and that seems to be because they're able to feel like they made a difference that day, as opposed to it being a drop in the bucket. It may also be because, you know, they're more focused, and that's less of a distraction in that giving day. But I think that that's something we could all do to continue deepening and broadening our networks.

I love that because for me Thursdays I'm dragging already. So I think it is that little that little bursts of energy

General, so glad tried at your own risk.

I'm so glad we got Thio. Talk about given. Take it seriously, one of Johnny and my favorite books of all time. We recommend it to all of our boot camp participants. And really, it's changed the way that I've you giving. I used to consider myself a match er and definitely felt that I was always sort of guarding my time and constantly calculating how much I got out of what I was getting and, of course, can become a nerve ing. And then to see that science behind you know what? Just the five minute favor doing it consistently as a habit and giving without having the trace and track everyone's return on that giving that you're doing. I found that my anxiety, Wayne tremendously. It and I certainly felt like I was making a greater impact than trying to keep score. But many of us are struggling in breaking out of that match. Your mindset, especially when we see those takers around us having their careers advanced and moving faster than

we are. Yeah, Thistles. The story of so many people's lives. Well, hmm. I'm honored that it's been relevant to your life. I'm glad it it sounds like it hasn't totally ruined it yet

it has not. I can, I can add that as a testimonial is not ruined my life.

Good. That's encouraging. That's my primary goal. First, do no harm. I think that there are lots of ways that people end up getting ahead when they're selfish. My read of the evidence is that happens especially in workplaces where individual performance metrics to dominate, and the way that you succeed is by being better than everyone else. Personally, I prefer not to work in an organization that operates that way, right, right, And if you join a culture where people's contributions to others are valued as much as their individual achievements. Then you see really quickly that takers tend to fall in givers rise very quickly. One of things I wish I had covered in Given take was a meta analysis giant study of studies with over 50,000 employees across industries. And the finding is that how much time you spend helping other people and trying to contribute to the organization above and beyond your individual job description that has as much impact on your performance reviews and your promotion rate as how well you do your actual tasks themselves. And so what that says to me is,

actually, in most workplaces, leaders and managers don't just want the individual superstar. They want the person who makes the team better, who goes above and beyond for the organization to try to advance the mission. And I think the real problem is there are a lot of takers who are good fakers and to end up, you know, kind of kissing up and kicking down when that happens. I think you have ah few choices, and I'm not going to say you shouldn't be a bachelor when dealing with takers, right? If somebody has a history or reputation of selfish behavior. You probably do wanna be much more. I would say you basically want to follow the law of reciprocity and say, Look, you know,

I'm I'm gonna help you if you pay it back or pay it forward, But I think they're actually ways to reform takers, which might be fun to talk about. I'm curious is yes, you guys have dealt with selfish people. However, you thought about getting them to maybe think about being more generous

when we're doing in class. And inevitably, there's always a few people who are afraid of being taken advantage of. Oh, if I'm a giver that I'm gonna get taken advantage of and that usually stems from in the past where they felt they had been taken advantage of. And for me, if you if you asked that question, then there's two things going on, eh? You have not learned how to build boundaries, so those boundaries there murky and so do you do get taken advantage of because you're unable to say no because you don't know when to say no. And number two is the value that you hold for yourself. and what I had seen. And I love your book so much. Is that without cultivating ah, feeling of value for yourself, then of course,

you're going to feel as if everyone's there to take from you because you haven't built up the value that you would want to protect with boundaries. And that takes time. And we've put together our classes ways of building that value for yourself, which is acting in a manner that is consistent with the values that you hold for yourself. And every day that you're able to do that, the value that you have for your star itself builds, and you continue to fill that in while you're being consistent and engaging in those values. And to do you get to a point where you now hold that value for yourself. And you certainly wouldn't want Thio happy how that taken advantage of. So now you're comfortable in building those boundaries because you've seen the work that you've put in to get to that position. Yeah, and I would add to that, you know the way to reform takers happens through norms, and the group has to participate in the norm for the taker to stand out for the wrong reasons. The reason you're seeing takers get ahead is because no norms have been set, so they have been allowed to set the norm or set the frame for behavior.

So, for example, if you have a taker in your myths who's constantly taking credit and just blasting to management, how much they've added to the project and everyone else in the project feels like, Well, wait a second. I had a contribution. What's going on here? The way to reframe that is, too. Allow the taker tohave credit, but then talk about how them taking that action benefited everyone else on the team and made them were productive. And when you set that norm enough with multiple examples where you're never just only spotlighting the person who had the credit, your spotlighting all of the impact that that credit had. So it spread around the team than you are working to create a norm where the taker isn't setting the frame and the taker isn't taking advantage of the fact that everyone else is just being a little humble and unwilling to speak up. And I find time and time again,

especially early on in our career were not comfortable setting norms. We're not comfortable with setting those boundaries, so the takers quickly advance. And then, as you get to the upper levels of your career, you realize that that flips and the takers can't actually demonstrate their value in a meaningful way. It just looks like they're stealing credit. So the best leaders are the ones who know how to give others credit. They're not the ones who are just blasting from the rooftops, their credit. But a lot of times early in our career we see the taker and we let them set the frame and we back off. And that's really the worst thing you can do because it's just allowing the taker to continue to take advantage of people and highlight

themselves first. That really resonates. I think it's something that we we often catch when it's too late, and the norms have already been set to be much more competitive or cutthroat, and that's got me wondering what what can we do? Thio to hit the reset button and probably the best example I've seen in this is in a financial service is company A few years back this woman named Kathy got a big promotion and she was told that she was gonna co lead a new team with a guy named Colin and four different people came up to Kathy and said, Do not trust this guy, Colin. He's gonna stab you in the back. He's gonna steal credit for your ideas. Huge taker. Watch out! And Cathy has this opportunity when she sits down with him to figure out okay, what is our working relationship gonna be like? And what kind of culture are we gonna build in our team? And she does something that I think very few of us have had the courage to dio. But probably a lot more of us could.

D'oh! She says, Hey, Colin, you know, I understand. We're gonna be leading this new team together. Just wanted to let you know this is what I've heard about you and she shares all the reputational feedback. Collins response is priceless. I don't know who you've been talking to, but clearly all these people are jealous of me. Thank you, Colin, for confirming your taker status. Yeah, right. But Cathy Cathy's right on point, and she's like, you know, Colin Honestly,

I don't know you. We

haven't worked together before. You know, I I hope it's not true, though, because I don't work well with people who operate that way. And if that's who you are, you are not gonna like working with me. And for the next year and 1/2 Colin changes its stripes. He shares credit. He volunteers for unpopular projects. He mentors junior people, and I think what Cathy did was she made his reputation visible to him, and then she invited him to learn a new one. And this, to me, is one of the most powerful things about working with takers.

If you can figure out what their goals are, then their behavior is actually pretty predictable. And all you need to do

is help them recognize that you know the power or success or wealth that they're trying to accumulate that might be jeopardized by being and being known as selfish. And so there's a better path now. You know. The sad part of the story is Colin changed teams a year and 1/2 later, and he went right back to his old taker ways when Kathy wasn't holding him accountable anymore. But I think an example like that tracks with some of the evidence. I've read that takers do not, in most cases want to be out of his takers. And if you can let them know that their reputation is steering in a more selfish direction, that's often the beginning of an incentive for them to try to change. Yeah,

when their behavior isn't seen in a negative light by anyone openly, then they're going to continue acting that way because it tends to be rewarded. You know, we've had takers in our midst as a company, and one of the first things we did was start meeting's off, expressing gratitude for other people on the team when you robbed the taker of its their stage to crow about their own advancements and take up all of the credit for the rest of the team. And instead you focused communication on how is someone else helped you? How is someone else guided you? How did someone else kill it in their job? You take away that bully pulpit that a lot of takers used to their advantage. Unfortunately, what we find in our clients is there not only givers, but they tend to be really humble, and what ends up happening is they don't have good ways to communicate their value to management. And unfortunately, management has way too many concerns to think clearly about all the different pieces that everyone is contributing to the team. And unless you are constantly presenting the value that you add,

Ah, lot of times in, especially in a bigger environment, you are gonna get passed over for promotion when you are deserving of it. Because the fact that you're constantly doing the five minute favors for other, not looking at all to take any of the credit and in fact, downplaying when you are given compliments and say, Oh, it wasn't that big of a deal or it was no sweat off my back That leads you to position when it comes for a performance review. Where management doesn't see you as being the person that builds the team up does is all but behind the scenes stuff that makes giver so fantastic. What is your advice for those of us in our career who are giving but can't really explain or demonstrate our value when it matters? Accounts

Well, I think you have a few options. The 1st 1 is to recognize the value of having some matters looking out for you. So I found over and over again when I study people's motivations and values across industries and across cultures, too, that very few people on the far extreme of giving or taking most people by default, especially in a new professional interaction. They prefer this matching style of you know I'll do something for you if you do something for me. And what's great about matches, then is they really believe in fairness and justice. It bothers them at their core if they see a taker getting away a selfish behavior. And they're also really upset if givers air going unreported for their generosity. And, you know, for a while I thought that we basically wanted only givers in, you know, in a workplace,

because then if everyone's generous, we can build a culture with with the most effective norms of helping and where people really put the team in the mission first as opposed to just their individual self interest. But I've had to rethink that because if you have no matches in the system, it's much easier for takers to kind of sneak in and take advantage of the givers. I think you may want to build a protective shield of masters around you. That would be my first tip.

Yeah, so building allies And I think a lot of us in especially early on in our career, are looking for mentors. So we tend to look at people who are above us in the organizational structure. Were like, Okay, I want to be mentored by this person. I look up to this person and we don't spend enough time building allies with our team members and certainly identifying Match er's and building alliances with them. If you tend to fall on the giver side of the spectrum, Sounds like they're the ones who are gonna be able to call the balls and strikes. And when that performance review comes around, actually give the truth to management when they're looking at who needs to move ahead and who may be is taking too much of the credit

that tracks for me. And I think one thing that requires of a lot of givers is to stop judging matters. I've had this reaction myself, and I know I'm not alone when you know when somebody actually I have. This happened with a colleague of mine where I asked him for some feedback on a project that was working on, and he came back to me a couple days later with exceptionally thorough and helpful feedback and then said, Here's a project I've been working on. You owe me feedback in three days. I was so offended by that because all of a sudden I felt like he didn't care about me. This was just a transaction. And, you know, now I had to repay my debt. It kind of undermined the relationship. I've changed my stance on that. Over time, I realized,

you know what? The fact that this guy holds other people accountable for doing their share is exactly what givers need. And so, you know, instead of having this knee jerk reaction of you know what's wrong with you, why are you so transactional? You know, it should be no strings attached. To be able to say, You know what, there's a time and a place for people to keep score. Maybe you don't want to be that person in every interaction or in most your relationships, but, you know, knowing that there's there's value in having those people around you. To me, that was a little bit eye opening.

Yeah, I certainly agree that having matters around you and involved in your career is a fantastic way. If you skew towards a giver who is humble and can't really speak up your own value for them, toe help advocate on your behalf?

Yeah, and that I guess that goes to the other. The other point, which is you don't have to just think about it, is advocating for yourself. I've taught negotiations for years, and the evidence is overwhelming that for women, oftentimes there's a backlash when they're assertive in negotiations, and they're well aware of this. And so the rest of the natural response is often to be modest and humble and caring and communal and ask for less. And of course, that puts them at a huge disadvantage. And what the evidence says here is that if women are negotiating on behalf of others, if it's a colleague or a direct report or a mentee, that that gender backlash and gap vanishes. And I think this applies to people who are givers who are men too. You know,

one of the things I've taught Thio, you know, to some of the more, especially the more agreeable givers that I've had in class is to say, You know what? If you find yourself walking in to negotiate a salary or a promotion or even just to make sure that your boss is aware of your work and you shy away from from asking or even just claiming the credit that owed to you, then you need to think about who else you're representing. And maybe that your role modeling for people more junior who struggle with this and it's an opportunity to go and try it out and report back to them so that they can learn from your example. And maybe in a negotiation context that you're showing your boss. You know what I negotiate is part of my job, and I'm gonna try to approach this negotiation not only with generosity and concern for you, but also with high aspirations for my own goals. Which is the way I'm gonna represent you when I'm negotiating on your behalf as part of the company. I think that very often when people are extremely humble they're thinking too narrowly about the credit or the ask is something selfish when in fact it may benefit other people, or maybe something that, actually in the future clearly benefits their employer

once again. When it comes to a place where you're constantly in fear of being taken advantage of, you're always going to see that another people, no matter what they're doing, and you're going to read things in that manner. Why I was mentioning earlier of It's so important to build your self worth and reverse that. So you're looking for the good everyone but it also at the same time learning how people give value just because maybe you've gave a contact out, then you're looking for a contact that comes back well, perhaps the gift or a dinner, or sometime, or like those that reward that value comes back and many different ways. Yeah, we're talking about this like love language exactly. And unfortunately, many of us in our communication style we expect to receive in return what we're giving to others. So as a giver, you could see yourself getting frustrated or feeling taken advantage of.

If you're looking at it as well, I gave this person my time and now they're not giving me their time back immediately or I gave this person referral and they're not giving me back a referral. But just because you gave someone that value doesn't mean that they're gonna in turn give you that value back exactly the same way A lot of people give value to others in different ways. And a five minute favor for one person might actually be, you know, a now our favor if they're not skilled or competent and what you're asking them to. D'oh! So I think, you know, we put so much expectation on others and I was talking to two of our clients recently at the end of the boot camp. We have dinner and they were both consultants, different fields and actually different locations. One was based in the UK, and one was based in New York. And they noticed this dynamic at work that if they went into the start of the project and told the client, Essentially,

hey, in working with you, I want to do everything I can to get you promoted. So they set the frame at the start that I'm working to advocate for you even though you work at a different company and I'm gonna make sure that your boss knows how well you worked with me and I'm gonna help advance your career. Well, lo and behold, they found out that at the end of their projects they were getting high marks because they were interacting with matters. So they were setting the norm at the very beginning, saying, I'm gonna advocate on your behalf. And since most of us fall in the match your category, sure enough, you're gonna find enough people in their matching. You're gonna well, wait a second. If this person is giving me valued by advocating for me,

well, then I, in turn, do this stay. My should be advocating for them. And they were able to advance in their career where that part of the performance reviews so huge that the client speaks highly of you over delivering. And the client is advocating on your behalf, not just your peers and your allies. And I think when you start to look at okay understanding your own behaviors, reading other people's behaviors and ultimately starting to understand a little bit more of their core motivations you can as a giver without having to be braggadocious without having to be outside of your character, be a humble person and still get ahead.

Yeah, I think this really speaks to a myth that I've seen over and over again on my research on givers and takers, which is, I think a lot of people see giving and taking as opposite ends of one spectrum. And they are at a fundamental level. When you go into an interaction, you know, asking what can you do for me is sort of the opposite of asking, What can I do for you? But when you think about the motivations behind the two, they're actually independent. So there's a question of How much do you care about helping the other person you're interacting with? And then how much do you care about achieving your own goals? And when you measure those two separately, they're basically un correlated so you can draw two by two. And you know, the pure takers are high in concern for themselves and low and concern for others.

And then you have some people who are low and concern for themselves and others. I've never known what to do with that. They're just guess apathetic. They just don't care. I guess that's depression. You have two kinds of givers you have, you know, with both categories of givers. You have high concern for others, but some of them are low and concerned for self. And those are the really selfless givers who end up being too humble, too nice to self sacrificing and ultimately are more likely to burn out and get burned and underperformed. And then on the flip side, you have the successful givers who say, Look, you know,

I'm not trying to be a match, er right. I don't want something back from East. Each person that I help What I want to do is I want to help as many people as I can, but be mindful of the personal cost of that and make sure that I don't overextend myself. And so you know, help whenever it benefits other people a lot and, you know, make sure it doesn't cost me too much, and I think that for a lot of people that I've had a chance to work with, that's been a useful reframe to say look, giving to others doesn't mean you're not ambitious. It doesn't mean you don't engage in self care as well. And in fact, if you know if you don't prioritize your own goals and objectives, along with other people's at some point your risk of burnout goes up and you end up in a weaker position to

be able to support other people. Yeah, that sense of self worth is an important part of that equation. Huge. So we asked youto to read the future. Let's hop in the time machine. Obviously, the book came out seven years ago. What would you change? Revise at it Now with the science that you've seen in the last seven years.

There's so much thistles. One of the curses of writing a book is you turn it in one day, but it's never done big things. I would change. I think one thing I would change is I would write much more about shaping cultures and the importance of the culture of a team in both influencing people's style of giving and taking, but also then how you can actually change a culture if you're in a more take our culture into more of a matching or giving culture. I think I would spend a lot more time on the work, life dynamics and work family dynamics. I wrote a lot about the you know, the conditions under which generosity can build a career success. I didn't spend nearly enough time talking about what the spillover effects are at home, and a lot of the people who read the book and some of the critical reviewers said, Well, you know, it's it's really great to be a giver professionally, and your family suffers because of it. There's actually example of ah,

giver in the book who told me that his wife hated him for eight years because he was at the office helping other people instead of her. Yeah, and that's that's a real problem. I think there are trade offs when it comes to time. I've also found, though, in some research with a colleague, Sabina Sana, tag that on the days when we're more helpful to others and we feel like we made a difference, we actually come home with more energy. We feel more competent, a greater sense of mastery, and that leads to positive emotions which are families can benefit from, and so I don't think it's his clear cut is saying, Well, you know the time you spent helping others on the job will inherently make your life a home. Worse, I think they're positive spillovers and negative spillovers, but I would love Thio have spent more time on those.

Well, I think for a lot of us are spouse significant other in our life could see when are giving gets in our way. And it is a detriment to our health and our happiness and well, being quick more quickly than ourselves. And I've had that conversation numerous times with Amy, where she's recognized that my giving has come to the detriment of my own mental well being and my own physical well being. And when you're wired to give in that way and you feel that energy burst, well, that high does wear off, and sometimes it takes a toll that you don't see as readily as the person you live with, the person you're in a relationship with.

Yeah, I remember years ago, my wife

asking me, Why are you helping that person? You on Lee hear from them and they want something

and I was like, because it's a five minute favor. It costs me nothing. You know, they seem to be very appreciative. Yeah, but you're you're not only rewarding a taker, you're reinforcing their behavior and teaching them the lesson that they can get away with it. And I feel like that is a message I have needed to hear

over and over again. So that's something that I think it only comes from experience and having the mirror held up where you're somebody is pointing that out. So it's in nature that you're not going to be able to see its problem or its detriment to you. Somebody else point that out. It's certainly difficult. And then to go along with that of just gaining experience. So you condone that after that, to recognize it so that you don't get caught up into it again.

Yeah, it's. And it would be so nice if we could see ourselves clearly. But they've been all the blind spots way become heavily dependent on feedback from the people who know us well and care about

us. You brought up a point about culture, and we talked about this on a previous episode of the show how important it is to identify the culture that you're joining. When you're looking for a job and many of us now we're gonna be going through a career transition or we already are impacted by this current situation and looking at new jobs. What are the questions or strategies we can use to identify if a culture is a taking culture, rewarding takers or givers? Or how can we identify what is the best fit for us? We hear so much about culture, but many of us just look at okay, what's the compensation package? What's my commute? What are the perks and benefits? We don't often think about the culture or have solid strategies to identify those red flags with culture.

Yeah, this is a question I've been getting asked for years, especially from students, but sometimes people at mid career doing transitions and pivots. And I think the most useful thing I've learned is when you ask people to describe the culture of their organization, you run into two problems. Maybe they're more but to two that are that are obvious. One is that people sugar coat a lot and they end up telling you what they think you want to hear about the culture so you're motivated to join. And then the other problem is that they just describe the culture in these platitudes or in, you know, in really abstract terms where you don't have a sense of what the organization is all about. People say, you know, we value teamwork and excellence and integrity. Great. I could have Googled those words and come up with about half. The company is on the Fortune 500.

Meaningless. So what I think works much better. His stories. We reveal the culture of an organization through the stories that we tell and the kinds of stories that I like to get. Are the stories about Can you tell me about something that happened in your organization that would not happen anywhere else? And what that does is it. It draws people's attention to what's really unique about the place they work, and then you collect a bunch of those stories and you try to figure out what the common themes this is actually first down A few decades ago, Joanne Martin and her colleagues, where they analyzed the organizational stories in a bunch of different industries that were told about cultures and they found that there were a core set that came up over and over again. So one of the common stories was about whether the little person can get to the top. Another was about whether the big boss is human. 1/3 is Am I going to get fired? And when you look at these stories, you start to realize you know what? The particulars of each organization are often idiosyncratic.

But the fundamental questions people have about culture are you know, they're somewhat universal when it comes to what humans want in a place. And I think when you collect enough of these stories, you can start to hone in on. Okay, what are the common themes I'm hearing? Is this the kind of place where I can I can both express my values and grow and contribute in a meaningful way? I've been sending students out to do this for years, and one of the more interesting things that happens is very often. When they asked this question, people are stumped and they have to. They really have to think hard about it. And in a couple of cases, I've had the recruiter come up afterward This was the first time it happened. Was in Infosys. Excuse me in for a session at a student,

Nicole who went and and raised her hand in the Q and A and said, Can you tell me a story about something that really makes your culture unique where you know, something that happens in your world that you've really never seen in any other company. And there were, I think, three recruiters there, and they kind of looked a sure way to really think about this. And one of them came up afterward and said, Hey, you're your question really stood out. And so I think this is not only a way to learn it might be a way to make an impression as long as everybody doesn't start doing it.

Yeah, exactly. So we got about a two month window podcast downloads here. Good luck. Be at an advantage. Our last question here. Thank you for taking the time. You did some interesting research on whether introverts are extroverts are better leaders, and we're dying to know what's the final verdict.

All right, You ready for this? The answer they are is yes. Awesome. Really helpful right now. what

I found. Everyone's having you made everyone. Yeah, exactly. We didn't lose it. You know, I, uh

that is actually I think everyone will be happy because the pattern this is work I did with Francesca, Gino and Dave Hoffman. What we found both in ah, a study in the in the food industry and then also in controlled experiments was that introverts and extroverts were equally effective leaders overall, but they were successful with different groups of employees. If employees were more on the reactive side where they were waiting for direction from above, the extroverts led more profitable companies and more productive teams because they, you know, they really went out and energize their people. Where's the introverts? Maybe we're a little bit more reserved. But in Proactiv teams, when employees were taking initiative, they were bringing ideas and suggestions from below. Introverts were more effective there cos we're more profitable in their teams were more productive. And that was where with Proactiv teams, extroverts were sometimes more likely to steal the spotlight and kind of hog the center of attention.

And that had to negative effects. One was that they got fewer and worse ideas. The other was that they left their people feeling a little bit discouraged and demotivated, whereas the introverts ask questions, they listen. They ran with the ideas, and that helped to both motivate and bring better ideas to implement. And I took that and said, All right, The simple lesson here is that there's not a set of personality traits that you know that define a great leader. You know, every set of personality traits comes with strengths and weaknesses, and we all need to be a little bit more flexible and adaptable. And then, in a follow up study, I found something similar with sales people,

where extroverts and introverts were about equally effective in a phone sales job. And there was one group that I perform, both of them. That was AM Buford's people in the middle of the spectrum precisely because they seem to be more adaptable. The introverts were, you know, sometimes too timid extroverts. The risk for them was being overbearing and talking too much. And the am beaver. It's kind of took the best of both worlds. And interestingly, when I've gone back to the data that we published on introverted and extroverted leaders, it does look like it's the Amber Alerts to bring in the best results that there is well, So I think you know, we shouldn't be slaves to our personalities. We all have that natural tendencies that are partially influenced by genetics and brain chemistry. But we also have choices about the behaviors we engage in, and I think we could all learn to unleash our inner and efforts.

So now our audience is wondering what's the best test to figure out If you are a namby vert? What's the test we can

ace here? Oh, you know, I don't actually think needs a test. I put together a little quiz with the Ted team a couple of years ago when I did a podcast episode on your hidden personality. So we put together a short quiz around that where you can figure out if you tend to be more introverted, extroverted and diverted. But I think there were actually two flavors of AM Beaver. It's one is people who just are kind of in the middle of each of the different substrates. So, you know, you're sort of moderately assertive. You're a moderately energetic, moderately outgoing. And then there's another category of ambi verts who are high on 11 set of substrates and low on another eso. You might be extremely gregarious, but not at all adventurous,

and you could come across his and diverted that way, too, so I don't know what to do with that. But I always find it interesting. So,

Adam, I haven't have won the add to that. So the for the person who can GOP be extroverted for three days, just gregarious out there loud, not just fool on extroverted, and then just shuts down and has to go away and read for a couple of days.

Who is that? Yeah, Johnny, Concussion.

That's you. Yeah. Yeah, What are you were still trying to figure that out. 14 years. I've always considered myself an M and Beaver because it's a mix of both worlds. But once one shuts down and I'm in that phase of the other, it's I'm very fixed. But then when I'm out on the other one, I'm very fixed. And so that's why people think that I am an extroverted partisan because they've seen that character like, Well, I also live in two worlds. There's part of me who loves the read love, psychology Love's philosophy, which Egg A J gets to deal with at work. But then there's the the rock and roll performer that plays in bands in Hollywood and has been doing that for 20 years. So like and and both of those characters are very set and they don't mix. And each of those characters has their own set of friends, and there's a great divide between those two worlds.

That's fascinating. I think you should introduce

the two of them and they kill each other. Yeah, I'm the one who rides Equator in this scenario, and I like the smell. It's willing to.

You know, Johnny, honestly, I'm I'm I'm never sure what to make of individual cases on. I'm not a clinical psychologist, so I can't help you that way. But I will say, Yeah, I can think of a couple ways. Thio. At least speculate about what might be behind that. That kind of unusual combination. One is You may be an amber alert, and you know you might have different roles that naturally bring out each. I think that's especially likely if you're a high self monitor. Self monitoring is one of my favorite meditates. It's It's about whether you tend to adapt your behavior to situational cues or you're basically the same person in every context.

And high self monitors are much more likely to have this chameleon quality where when they're on stage, they come out of their show. And when they're not, they figure out what's appropriate for that situation. And they read quietly, Wow, a second. Yeah. I mean, I don't know if that's you a pause there, but to other hypotheses. Okay, that sounds like Johnny. So you may just find yourself adapting a lot. Yeah. Um,

what was the other ones? Well, so the other two hypotheses, the 2nd 1 is, you know, even extroverts have their limits, and it may be the case. Extroverts can handle more stimulation than introverts typically, But you may just reach your limit at some point and then need to recharge. And then the I think the third possibility is one of the ways I'd like to break down Introversion. Extra virgin is sociability versus excitement seeking. And if you cross, there's two. Sometimes to go score high on one and low on the other, and you confined there are shy extroverts out there who loves skydiving, and they're kind of adrenaline junkies. They probably

drink a lot of coffee as well, but they're very uncomfortable in new social situations. And the flip of that which you could be, is more of a sociable introvert

where physiologically, you know, you're not the person who craves stimulation constantly,

But you love people,

and that's when you're performing. Side comes out.

Wow. There's a lot to think about there.

Those are my guess is good luck.

I feel like we have you back. We're gonna have Johnny. Listen,

I refer you to a stair Perella or

Lori Gottlieb. Thank you so much for joining us, Adam. It was fun. Great work. As always. We really enjoyed it. What are you working on currently? Is there a new project in the works? So we should get excited about?

Oh, right now. Just Ah, just deep in the throes of my work life podcast. We're about halfway through the season and we've got a bunch of episodes to wrap up before the season ends.

What are you most excited to release on this season?

Oh, I've had a blast with procrastination and negotiation negotiation was especially fun because I went to Cinnabon and anti ends to try to negotiate free Cinnabon and then free cinnamon pretzels, and it was a fun challenge and then coming up down the pipeline, I'm really looking forward to an episode on career peaks and valleys and the question of how do we stay great as our careers advance and some of our knowledge becomes obsolete? Yeah, that's awesome. It could be. We'll see.

Thank you so much, Thank you. That was so fun to check in with Adam about his thoughts in writing that book seven years ago and what has changed. Obviously, that book has been a big influence on our lives and our clients here at the art of charm. It's so cool to hear on updated version of give and take from Adam. Well, not only that, and working with these concepts over how many years of the Arctic charm, some ideas and some questions have certainly come up on our side of the block, and it was such a wonderful opportunity to be able to discuss them with the man himself. And what I love about it is not only identifying yourself as ah, giver, taker or match er, but understanding how to build alliances with people who may have a different temperament than you to gain that advantage in the workplace. What a fun episode of so happy Adam stopped by. Now here is our challenge for you this week.

What are you doing with Lincoln? As we heard from Adam, networking has never been easier. Right now, everyone is online checking their social media. So how about we start expanding our network? This week? We challenged you to go into Lincoln and update that profile. Change your headshot, get everything up to date and start growing your network while we're all stuck indoors. Now let us know. We're always excited. Hear from you, So send us your thoughts by going to the arctic charm dot com slash questions. You can also email us questions at the art of charm dot com, and you could find us on social media at the art of charm on Facebook,

Instagram or twitter. Now, if you're feeling frisky and you want more Johnny in your life, tune into our live coffees at 8:30 a.m. Pacific each and every week day on our social platforms, you could find him on Twitter, Facebook and Instagram. Also, could you do us in the entire Arctic charm team? A big favor? Could you go on over to iTunes and rate and review this podcast? It would really mean the world to us. The artichoke podcast is produced by Michael Harold and Eric Montgomery and engineered by Sanjay and Bradley Denham, a cast media studios and sunny Downtown Hollywood until next week. I'm Johnny and I'm a J Have a great weekend. Yeah,