Scott McLeod of Resident, creators of Nectar Sleep, saw 500% growth with 99% remote staff + MORE.
The Justin Brady Show
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Full episode transcript -

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that way. Justin Brady Show. Thank you so much for joining me every week. We sharpened communicators in, out and around the workplace in just 17 minutes. Scott McCloud, founding member and chief of staff of Resident. They make the A nectar sleep mattress. He's going to be joining me. He is a work from home, or, I should say, remote work advocate. That company has grown 500% the last three years, and 99% of their staff have the option to work remotely. So I'm going to ask him how you know I don't. I think the work remote work from home thing is just not going to keep going.

I don't think it's gonna be a thing. I think people are going to want to go back to the office. So I'm going to ask him how they did it, what problems they have. And of course, the burning question is, has your team ever figured out the whole you're on mute problem on conference calls way all need to know that we're gonna touch on the whole bubble Wallace news thing and why the word racism is sadly starting to get diluted. And what that means for you also employees. Burnout isn't necessarily about hours worked. There are actually quite a few factors at play, which was kind of surprising to me. But first, I want to talk about your data. Your data? Is it really yours? No,

seriously. Is your data really yours? Think about it. Andrew Yang, who has been on this show before? I love the guy. Supercool guy. We had a great conversation. He wants tech companies to pay for your data according to the VERGE. Basically, Yang wants to fight for you and make tech companies pay for your data. This this project he's working on is called the data dividend Project. Does that sound familiar? Because you know, he's the freedom dividend guy, right?

So you know now data dividend. Basically, here's the idea. He his organization wants to fight for you, and they also eventually, by the way, I want to make this law where tech companies have to pay for your data. Here's a quote, though, and this is this is where things get a little interesting. Here's a quote from Mr Yang were completely outgunned by tech companies being told the verge were just presented with these terms and conditions, no one ever reads them. You just click on them and hope for the best. And unfortunately, the best has not happened. Do you hear the problem?

Do you think about it? Here's the quote were just presented with these terms and condition. No one ever reads them. There's the problem. No one ever reads them. I mean, let's let's just pause right there. First of all, this is your fault. This is my fault. You don't want your data being in the hands of people. Don't give it to them. This is where this starts. If you don't want people having your data, don't give it to them. I understand what you're saying,

though There are some people that collect data without your knowledge. Okay, I get it. So anyway, and we're gonna get to that, I promise. But this is the first thing. If you don't want Facebook having your data, if you don't want instagram having your date, if you don't Twitter having your data don't sign up for an account and don't agree to their terms. This is the most basic thing, right? I think so. Many times we don't even think about that part. It's like all these companies have data. Well,

you gave it to him. That's that's on you. That's on you. So, interestingly enough, the sign up form If you want to sign up for Andrew Yang's data dividend project once your data, it wants your date. Now I get it. But it's It is kind of funny. You have to admit they want multiple phone numbers. They want yourself only want all email addresses you've ever used with social media companies and they want your PayPal account. I guess in case they have to pay you, how much would that be like, $10. I mean, seriously,

think about it. If they ever succeeded this project, what do you gonna get like 10 by my guess is like $10 or something, you know, basically the cost of a nap. Think about it. Right? Point is, you're already being paid, right? When When was the last time you paid for using Facebook? The answer is never. When was the last time you paid for using YouTube again? The answer is never. How about Instagram? How about Twitter?

You didn't pay for those. That's the payment. It's an exchange. Hey, you use this cool platform that we built for you for free and will use your data and we'll advertise to you will have marketers on our website. That's exchange. That's what you sign up for. I know. I don't think anybody in the world Well, okay, I'll walk that back. But if you don't understand that, that's on you. They give you the privacy policy, they tell you to read it if you don't use it. If you don't read it,

that's on you. So this stuff is already for free. So if we're really going to be paid for using our data, I mean, how does that functionally change anything? How does that actually change anything? If companies start paying you for data, then they're just gonna feel more justified in using it. It's not gonna change the problem. Those interesting study done on a daycare, and I'm going off memory here. But basically the day care one wanted parents to show up on time because parents kept coming late. So the parents eso the daycare thought, Here's an interesting idea. We're just gonna charge them a late fee for every minute there. Late genius that'll get him to show up on time,

but it didnt. Parents showed up later. Why? Because they the research showed that they viewed that fee as just a neck Spence as a cost of being late. So social media companies, tech companies, whoever if you're if they're paying you for your data, they're going to feel even more justified in using that data. And you're probably going to see these privacy policy policies get even mawr intrusive, inm or direct. Actually, people that air kind of fighting against the data dividend project are concerned by this. They're concerned that people will just start selling their data and trying to make money off their data. And by the way, it's not gonna like I said earlier. I can't imagine you get you make any money off this,

But what's the solution here? People start paying for your data. APS start charging fees. I mean, what's the actual solution? Where does this actually go? Like think about all the privacy policies we set up, Um, the UK past some pretty strict ones Think about that, like people like I don't wanna be tracked on the Internet anymore. And so they passed these laws saying, Okay, you need to disclose that you're tracking people and you have cookies on your website. And if you're gonna collect cookies, you need to get their explicit permission first. So what happened now when you goto websites everywhere?

That's why you get these stupid pop ups all the time. We kill a cookies, we collect information on you, press OK to use our site. What does everybody dio? Everybody clicks, Okay, They just click, OK? All right. Well, I want to get here anyway, I wanted this content anyway, no one thinks about it. So if you want this stuff, you're just going to click.

OK, that's what we do. Privacy policies. You're just going to have mawr interruptions, more pop ups and mawr inconvenience when using all this stuff. But here's the thing. Data collection. We've talked about this before, but data collection is not new. It's not new. Target member. We talked about this in February. The time target found out a girl was pregnant. Father is angry. I'm going to remind you the father was angry. A target for sending his high school daughter ads for baby stuff.

She was actually pregnant. Target new before the girl's dad knew. Now you're probably thinking, Wow, that is a really interesting you know that. That's a really, really scary thing. I mean, we should maybe think about this was done before 2002 before the iPhone Andrew Poll. Is the guy the genius, a target who ended up being able to track people's buying behavior, and they would just associate it with your credit card numbers in your names, your name. So by 2002 by 2005 he had completed, this project was already being used again before smartphones before, like,

well, riel smartphones, we had the, you know, dumb phones that were said they were smart. So this is before all that they were a People were already good at this. Target assigns every customer a unique idea, least back then they did. That may may be different now, if you use a credit card coupon or fill out a survey or mail in a refund, or call the customer help line or open an email we've sent you or visit our website, we will record it and link it to your guest. I d Pull said. We want to know everything we can. So this is not new. Tracking your behavior and collecting your data.

Is it yours? By the way, collecting your data isn't knew that in fact, it even predates the entire Internet in the 19 eighties, and M I, t neuroscientist named an Graybeal was already trying to track consumer habits, you know, with, like, mazes and rats and studies like the basically trying to find out consumer habits and how to track them. So this is not new. And here's the other thing. The government already does this. They already sell your data like this is already a thing. The governments in on it too. You're probably like,

what, the government and what kind of conspiracy is this? Well, if you just filled out the U. S. Census, you probably should have been paid for that coming. According to Andrew Yang, you probably should have been paid for that. Why? Because they're selling your data. The government is actually doing this already, So why isn't anybody saying anything about that? If Andrew Yang is like I said earlier, I love this guy. I don't agree with him on a lot,

but I love this guy He's a super cool dude. He was on my show. Thank you, Andrew. The U United States Postal Service, however, cells your data. You can buy marketing packages from the United States Postal Service to target ZIP codes and demographics. How accurate is this? According to the USPS dot com marketing page on their website, Affordable targeted advertising is available for you. Marketers use every door direct mail registered copyright E d. D M services to promote your small business in your local community. If you're having a sale, opening a new location or offering coupons, e d d M can help you send postcards,

menus and flyers to the right customers. Wow, now you're probably thinking, Well, Justin, that's just, you know, that's just zip codes. I mean, that's not necessarily my data. That's not, you know, that's not a big deal until you keep reading. And it says you used the E D D M online tool to map zip codes and neighborhoods even filter by age, income or household size. Using US census data,

it says it right there. Point being, this is everywhere. The tracking you selling to you with data is everywhere. It's even being done by the United States Postal Service using census data that is required for you to fill out. Here's my question. Is it data? Is it your data? Where is it? Data about you. That's the big difference, right? This is what they're going to have to define. Is it data? Is it your data or is it data about you? These air different.

And if you're gonna get paid, if you're gonna pass laws, they will need to be defined. Is it your data or is it data about you? So you don't actually read the privacy statement and you yourself sign up for the Twitter account, the Facebook account and you yourself agree to that account. Is it your data anymore? Think about this. They're tracking activities. You're not even aware they're tracking their track getting Matt mouse activities. They're tracking what you viewed. They're tracking what ads you like. What products you like. You gave that up. Here's the thing. You don't even know in some cases what they're tracking.

So is that really your data? If you're not even aware it exists and but they are that's data about you, not your data. Now, I'm not arguing whether or not it's shady, how much stuff they track. I'm not arguing that that conversation could be had. And guess what the results of that conversation is. If people say, Wow, Facebook's collecting too much data, they just don't use Facebook. I remember when I got a key it, by the way, I had a key once. Hated that car.

Oh my gosh, I absolutely aided my Kia, who is a piece of grab. I was watching some football game. I had never texted any of my friends. I had never googled Kia at all. Nothing, nothing. Nothing. Nothing. Nothing, Nothing. Ah, and I hadn't even used my phone was in my pocket. I wasn't tweeting or Facebook posting anything about the game, and all of a sudden I'm watching the Super Bowl or on what?

No, it wasn't even a Super Bowl. It was some game, and I pulled open Facebook and there was an ad for the car that was on the TV at that time, and I was like, Yeah, no, I think I've done. Now I get it. They could have said, This is a major game. A lot of people are gonna likely be watching. We're going to serve this ad to everybody. Sure, that could be, But it creeped me out enough.

And with my previous, um, reading of how much stuff they track. I'm just like, you know what? I'm done now. I'm done now. So I deleted my Facebook account because it was uncomfortable for me. And that's what you can do right now. Delete your Facebook account. If you don't want them tracking stuff, you can delete it and you can go into their options and click that option to delete all your data. Now, are they actually gonna delete it? Probably not. Let's be honest,

They're probably not gonna delete it. But is it your data or is it data about you? If I observe your activity and I write it down in a notebook, is that illegal? Is that your data, or is that data about you? Oh, here. How about this? Do you have a contact list? You have a list of contacts and notes sales people do this all the time. They record all these notes about prospects like Little. Sally's birthday is on June 2nd in Little Sally likes ballet. I don't know if you ever saw that? Michael Scott Able the Office episode where Michael Scott has all those postcards that he keeps track of all his customers? Ah,

data. And Dwight doesn't understand what the notes means. He's like offending everybody. That's pretty normal sales. People do that. So are we supposed to pay customers now for collecting their data? We have a contact list of the phone number. Did you explicitly asked permission to document that phone number and write it down? If you didn't, you should probably be paying them. Do you see how convoluted this gets? Do you see how difficult this gets? That's why you need to define what is your data and what is data about you. And that's the next step in this whole thing. That's why it's really, really hard to pay anybody for Daito First,

they're giving that up there, giving that up freely. And second, how do you actually control and define what your data is? And what data about you is your data is constantly being collected. And how do you actually how do you actually own any of it? Who owns what your brain even collects data to you? Collect patterns all the time. Researchers collect data. Are they supposed to pay for that data? Are they supposed to pay for that? Do I have to pay a public data fee whenever I go out and start collecting data? If I'm a researcher and I'm going to observe behaviors in the wild like not in the wild like the animals just like watching people behave like doing patterns, watching how they line up in lines if they're if they're marketing researcher, are they just supposed to pay a public data fee to access that information? Of course not.

This stuff is stupid, but this illustrates why the data conversation isn't so cut and dry. And why the DDP probably isn't going to go anywhere because all that they need to point out is, Hey, we're not We're not the only ones doing this literally. Everyone is doing this. So if you want us to pay for data, everyone's gonna have to pay for data. I am curious, by the way, if Andrew Yang, when he was running for president used and he have that data in those Democrat databases toe advertise to people, I am curious about that. I didn't ask him about that, sadly, when he was on my show.

But that would be interesting. So that's That's the That's the whole point. Here is Is it your data or is it data about you? And until we can define that, I don't think this DDP thing is gonna go anywhere. And I don't think there's a check coming for your data any time soon. Up next, Scott McCloud, founding member and chief of staff of resident, joins me. They have a 500% growth in that company, of course, is the company who made nectar sleep. They have 500% growth, but 99% of their staff is remote, and I'm going to ask him how they manage remote work.

Listeners of Justin Brady show No, that I just work from home is it's tough for me. I don't like it. I am not a fan. Obviously, a lot of companies are successful doing it, and we've heard in the news a lot of companies have switched over to that work remotely work from home model. And so Scott McCloud, founding member and chief of staff of resident, joins me today because he has a completely different vision on this whole work from home model. Scott, thank you so much for joining me in the listeners today.

18:54

Happy to be here, Justin. Thanks for having me.

18:56

So if you're not familiar, anyone's not familiar with resident. You make some popular products, which are what they

19:4

were. Ah, collection of home goods brands. Mainly four mattress brands are a big one selector. Sweep is our largest brand. Got dream cloud sleep, Laura. Sleep level sleep, and then a handful of, ah, smaller living room furniture

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brands. Yes. I think most people are familiar with the mega popular brand, which saw, like, I don't It was like 500% growth or something in 2019 nectar.

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Is that bad? Yeah. Yeah. Nectars definitely are Big one. We've seen some pretty unprecedented growth the last 34 years. It's the largest of the mall by a significant, uh, say significant numbers.

19:38

Yeah. So you're doing this with 99% of your staff being remote and generating more than 300 million in gross sales in just three years. So I mean, the big question we all want to know is you know, you and I should I should back up a little bit. You guys believe this is kind of essential to work from home Model is sort of essential. So, you know, work from home, is not it? Maybe it's the future for business around the globe. My question is why?

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That's a good question. I think I also like the kind of least from how I received. I think it's important. Even before this company, I've probably been working remote 80% of my like 12 year professional career. Okay, Most of the time I've been remote in some form. So as a consultant or a practitioner, uh, and I've also been in office for places, etcetera. But I've generally kind of defaulted there. And I think if you look at remote work and distributed workhorse, those air two trends that kind of parallel with each other. So our earliest days we were district

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hold on remote. Let me Let me let me stop you. Can you? Can you define why those air different really quickly before you go into that, cause I I'm not sure I know the difference.

20:48

Yes, I was said, it's important that being remote first, I think, is the way in which your organization operates on. That's assuming that everyone who's a stakeholder of decision maker isn't in the same room. So I think that's you have written forms of communication. It's about taking notes, sharing different types of documents and information. The default is is that important? Things are communicated online and they're recorded on their digital. That's kind of the remote first approach where, by default, Hey, we're gonna have a meeting. It's a hang out or it's a Skype call or the default is that it enables someone from anywhere. So that's kind of being remote first,

right? Like okay, it allows your organization to be open to people anywhere, and then a distributed workforce is kind of the notion of people can work anywhere. Um, and the two of those aren't always true. So I think a lot of large companies have distributed workforce is they have offices all around the globe, but they aren't really remote. First, in the sense of decision making is focused on online and digital, and it's open for people around the world. I think the sweet spot is the to write your remote first, so your technology, your tools, your processes your communication styles within an organization, our remote personal sense.

There they welcome anyone from around the world and then the distributed pieces kind of you're hiring all around the world in your building, these teams, and particularly for us. In our earliest days, we were all just distributed really small team 3 to 5 of us working from home. Um, And as we continue to scale and build our teams, we ended up having smart people in a lot of the same cities. I don't think it's a coincidence now that were distributed in the sense we have a lot of people in L. A San Francisco, do your London and Tel Aviv. These, like 3 to 5 places, ended up becoming a co locations for us. Okay, we had offices.

We allow people to go work in the office, but our default is communication is digital on its remote First, um, and there's like a ah considered effort there. The big one is you don't want all of one team in one office because then they have inside Cumbers conversations. The communications isn't remote first, but I think before I kind of go into a wide power for, like what makes it powerful. I think it's important why I think so, particularly its access to talent. When we're looking right now, in 3 to 4 rolls open, I am looking anywhere on the planet, right? So I'm not narrowing my search to a specific Geo location. I'm really looking for people anywhere.

Sure on. I think this access the talent is one of the biggest benefits and able to work with really great people around the world. Some of our first key hires were in these random cities around the U. S. In the world, um, something access to more tone. I also think that the remote first kind of approach is actually good for an organization. It's all about documentation, automating using technology to build you your business is in my experience, remote first organization. It's a lot easier to plop new people in and out, so it's a lot easier to onboard because everything's kind of focused on being written, communication and recorded. And then, like kind of third,

I think it helps with company culture. People can live a little bit more of a live work lifestyle, and I think for some people, that's they wake up at 5 30 they work for seven or eight hours, or some people sleep in a little bit later and work later. And I think they think this kind of flexibility allows people to live a truer, happier life, and therefore work is more enjoyable. They create better work products. Um, but I don't think there's, Ah, black and white answer and the sense of your only remote were only distributed. I kind of see it as his grading scale. And, um,

you could have an office and be remote. And that's really back toe like right, labeling the remote first communication styles and things. So and I see like Kobe is kind of pushed to this all to become more mainstream, and I think they're transfers, not all remote, all office. It's going to be the sweet spot. And even for us, when we were all remote and distributed, we try and get together twice a year. At least you really need to get together in person sometimes because you can't. You can't replace the high band with conversation of being in person with someone. All right?

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Yeah, and that was gonna be one of my questions. Like, how often do you guys get together? You mentioned, um, distributed remote. I'm assuming distributed workforce is they get together. Just, you know, more often they make the more important decisions face to face. Um, So how often do you guys get together? And I guess what I should, um, ask is like the tangible stuff, right?

Like when you're making a new product or doing a marketing thing, so much of us rely on agencies or whatnot, marketing departments anywhere. You're picking up swatches and tangible stuff we rely on, like the Pantone book we rely on, you know, snipping things and and making little prototype. So how do you guys do all that stuff, um remotely Or is that part of the get together phase?

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That's a great, great question. I mean, I think that's part of the tools and processes. So a lot of those I think, collaboration particularly, let's say, brainstorming was there definitely some of the things that are harder like three people sit in front of a whiteboard that's hard to replicate online, but tools like Sigma and Canada online tools that make it easy for us all to be in the same document. I'll be collaborating at the same time. So when were you know I'm I'm also responsible helping launch our new brands that really early stage thing, where you kind of have to have yeah, high agility and ability to constantly change the business because you're learning as urine market and that kind of brain stormy launching business ideas. Ah, it's harder. Um, and we don't wait until we're in person for that.

We just kind of built processes around. How do we use tools that allow us to collaborate together? Um, it's a lot of Google sheets and Google docks. We like Sigma for a lot of the visual things. Let's say your example of Pantone and color palettes. Um, Sigma lets us all be in there, and I'll be looking at the same document and dragging things around. And, um, I think for most tools and processes in our business, there's some way we can collaborate digitally. Sure, Um, we generally they're getting so like we went from being everyone all over the planet slowly.

Oh, there's a few people here, A few people there, few people here, Um, up until co that happened. Our new York office was pretty active. I would go into the office 3 to 5 days a week, and that was still just a small piece of the whole organization. Same thing in San Francisco, New York, London in Tel Aviv. Those four places a little bit of planning, but also I think it's not. It's a by product of a lot of great talented people in the cities, and we continued to hire great people,

eventually create some gravitas. There's enough. So like L. A. In Boston or to the next one's ups, where we almost have enough people to justify having an office, because I think again you can get together with people. It's not a bad thing. It's great to be able to bring everybody together, but being very active or proactive about making sure that your hires are not concentrated right? So I think even though we have four offices and four or five cities, we're making sure it's not all of one team there. Um, okay, so lot here. But like, time zone coverage is very important as a piece of that right?

27:43

Uh, so there is So you do have offices. You do have some offices. When when you guys say 99% of your staff is remote them. That means 99% of your staff has the option of being remote at any time. But they can come to the office if they want to. Is that kind of how that works? Really,

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It's just because those four offices Yeah, I mean, everyone could be your amount. 100% of 19 like 99% of people do not need to be in an office or a building. Um, and we provide the offices as yeah, perk in some ways, right? Because I think even even when I was not running this company and working as a consultant remote, you want to get out there, you need to be around people. I'd go work it. We were sort of coffee shops or getting out there is an important piece of even if you were promoting, distributed just beating around people. And even when I'm a remote consultant, get a subscription at a coworking space just being around people a few times a week, I think it's a portrait.

So we once there's enough people in a certain city will end up you know, getting a we work or a small office, and then it's kind of open office policy, right? You want to be there enough. I have a little rule your there enough, like three plus days a week. You get a desk, you get the monitor, the keyboards, the whole set up, your coming once a week, twice a week. And a lot of that is even here in New York. Not everyone lives close enough. So some people who live an hour away finally fair for me to expect you to come in when I could walk to the office in 10 minutes that having it provides the choice for people.

29:4

Yeah, and that's what's fascinating. I'm glad you differentiated, or I'm glad you kind of drew a little line between remote work and work from home because it sounds like all your staff can work from home. But would use. Would you agree that many are choosing not to their like co locating? They're finding coworking spaces, and they're trying to at least in some way replicate an office kind of feel.

29:27

I'd say at least most people need to do that at least a couple times a week. I think you said it's less about not being in an office, and it's less about You have to work from home and more about your company doesn't need to be in your look your local area. You don't need to be near your headquarters in some way, right? So I think most people seek it out a couple of times a week. We live. It's like, really work from anywhere less than work from home. And I think, sure, I'm sure you may be experienced this yourself. But as everyone gets, propelled him to work from home. Your home's not set up for that, right? Right?

Me and been doing this 10 years. When I move, I always have another bedroom. It's the office. I always make sure I have space that you create for it, and that's the recommendation we make for our employees. Like if you're gonna work from home, there's no working from the kitchen table or the couch rule around that right? You do that, it's face. You need the monitors. You need the keyboards like you need to create space for your work, right? Um, yeah, we every once in a while,

have a fun like, we'll have everyone share their space right and sharing in a slack and kind of show over one week where you work. But very important for us. No one like working from a kitchen table or a capture. It's not acceptable. It's like you need dedicated space for your work. Um, in an ideal world, it's a separated room, But

30:35

so this brings me into a good question because I've wanted to know that you kind of hinted something there. You didn't just say, Oh, people. You use strong language there. You didn't say, Oh, people don't prefer to work on their couch. You actually said working from your couch is like, Not good. That's that's not a cool thing or working or working from your kitchen table nugget. So I'm assuming you guys have some best practices wrapped around this remote work. Um, structure?

31:0

Yeah, exactly, I think. And those things were fine infractions, right? Yeah, for one day, two hours of the day you're on the couch, whatever. But it's about creating space for yourself to take work serious, right? Right. My biggest kitchen tables bad because that's your family time. And that's where you know you have dinner, and it's supposed to be for that Not work, too, right?

And I think by separating it is important. Um, And you actually for us, I think it's also like we were lucky enough that senior employees, you can kind like someone who's had more experience in the world. You can give them this list of best practices and hope they follow him, right? And I think when new people join, we generally are looking for people who have remote experience. That's like definitely one of the first filters and those who don't Yeah, I think we have. Ah, we have a document with best practices when we do our on boarding Part of that is where you're gonna work. Like, where's your dedicated space? Do you have a keyboard?

Do you have a mouse with the have set up look likes a part of our on boarding is really understanding what you're set up gonna be. And for some people that they need to get an office or they need to get over my workspace for some period of time. Um, but we definitely have best practices that we kind of help. Help push everybody into. I wouldn't say rules in some cases, but it's definitely strongly suggested you follow some of them. Right? And I think it just leaves the better quality

32:13

work. Yeah. So you mentioned a few. Like having an actual office space that separate. Are there any other best practices you have outlined? That you like your management team and your leaders to follow? Like any Any you could list out? Because I know a lot of people are transitioning to this, and they don't have those best practices. So they're gonna basically go down, you know, two months from now and say, Oh, crap. Maybe we should, You know, maybe we should do that as a best practice other. A short list?

32:43

Yeah. I mean, the dedicated spaces, like the biggest in a lot of ways, right? And then I think I'm a big proponent of some I know it's a command center, but having the keyboard, the mouse in the monitor, something that really, because most of us were using laptops, your ipads right. Making sure that the place you dedicate toe work, you also have the tools for work. Right? So all of our customer service agents almost have second monitors, right, because we see the additional benefits to these productivity's about productivity boosters.

When you're in the office, you're chatting with people. You've got white boards and things when you're online. I've got flak and chats. True, I put that in one window on your other windows. You're working right? So our big one there is like two monitors is a big productivity booster because one can be for your communication from one could be for your first your focus work. Um, the other is like, I think particularly you have to schedule brakes. I think it's important when you work from home that it's very easy that it starts to blur across your whole day. People take actually schedule your lunch break in your day schedule. The end of your day. Google Calendar set Your working hours is really important, particularly for like for us.

We have people across almost every time zone in the world, and you need to be very mindful of other people's schedules, right, So being smart and strong about how you can walk off your time with the additional thing with that is like also being accommodating. Sometimes you should be the one who wakes up early and they stay up late or you have to stay up a little bit later and sure wake up early. So I think it's figuring out what's best for you and your organization. But the important thing there is scheduling when you're not working is just as important at the time you scheduled to work. Sure, I think that's an easy one for people to skip as the best practices like Oh, great. I've got my office and said I'm ready and you're gonna end up working 11 hours a day, sometimes in accident, and that's actually not okay

34:25

in the long run. Okay, so there is something that we don't maybe be another best practices don't like just endlessly work wall to wall Day.

34:32

Yeah, trying to schedule the time where you have your brakes right? And if that's taking the kids to school or going for a run or making lunch or this is what I make dinner, this one, I do yoga, or I think it's more important for you to schedule out your empty time or you're not empty, but your non work time, and especially so the person who's waking up on the West Coast? Let's say you know in an hour now, um there days starting in someone else's of ending and I think that's where it's important for you to schedule in those those holds in the brakes. So common ones, I think, which is part of the benefit, is people can take their kids to school in the morning, for example, right, and come back and then get into it.

You're in Kobe, right? Once in your life that are important for you. I think if you don't do that work from home or remote work really considered to take over no, that's why they work from home and remote work are slightly different. And we started to say that of like working from home, I think is only good if you can really have a big space and dedicated room. If you don't have that, I think it's great for you to find any one of the co working spaces to be able to go on work from sure, but it's still about scheduling

35:32

time, so e, I want I want to move on to Another thing is why this whole thing started in the beginning. Why did resident decide to go work from home? And I should say, like in the beginning, how many people did you have and how many people do you have now? So there are two questions there. Why did you do it? And how many people did you have when you started? How many do you have now?

35:58

The question when we started, there is really 3 to 5 of us. I'd say Eric Krohn, Craig and then myself, unsure on. And we started remote because we were all not in the same city. Sure, no. Even for the first few months Eric and I were in San Francisco. Ronan Craig were down in the South Bay. I think we sold a few $1,000,000 worth of mattresses before I met anyone else about Eric. It was just because we're able to get it done.

36:20

Only cow.

36:21

Oh, that's crazy. I mean, like, I could weaken, do all of it. Our stuff like you Can you do it all digitally? There was not other than a couple of meetings I had with Eric in person. There's not a lot more than that. It was phone calls, conference calls chatting and email and then just letting good people do their work right in my face. I'm like, Cool. What do you guys need? Give me two weeks. It's very much following these processes and things got a lot of innovations that comes to a lot of innovation, but it's following playbooks and technology.

So we did it because everyone that we wanted to work on this project was distributed in remote. So because we don't have the necessity, the talent was at a necessity. Exactly like from day one there. Eric Enron had found good people and those good people. We're not all in San Francisco, right? So wrong was from Tel Aviv. Spent a lot of time out there. That's where Sharone is. Who's our CTO? So he was already over there already from day one. The guy who's helping me build the website is over in Tel Aviv, right? You're not already forces this communication and remote. First,

um, sounds like when there's three or four of us hacking around. There's a couple of us in San Francisco, but we're all working from home. I actually worked from Coworking space on and off there in San Francisco Um, And then fast forward were 200 something employees. You The biggest office is in San Francisco or here in New York from, like, 30 40 ish people in the New York area. So on a busy day, our office would have 20 or 30 people. Okay, um, I think now, if Kobe were enabling and pushing for more, like,

you know, enjoying their remote work and work from home approach. But yeah, we went from three, and it was out of necessity. That's that's where the talent was. Yeah, And then as we scaled, I think it's important to note, like over these last week. It's been four years as of April, um, over four years, it took a lot of learning in terms of what's right. And my biggest learning is like be conscious of time zones. So,

uh, making sure you don't have all of one type of person in one time zone. Sure, the benefit for us, and I think I didn't really clue into this or, like push on it. But we have almost a 24 hour working schedule and six days of the week. So you look at one of my competitors who works 9 to 5. Um, you know, they end, they pick it up the next morning for us. When my days ending, I'm passing the baton to someone else. And they're running

38:38

with this kind

38:39

of almost 24 hour working culture allows us to get of my joke is like I'm gonna get, you know, six months of work done in two or three months, right? Just because my team is working 24 hours and the most expensive thing is cycle times. So the time for me to go from, you know, Project A to B takes way more time. If there's no one picking it up at night, right? So we almost have to full work days in a day, right? And that

39:2

kind of think

39:3

about the culture works really well and particularly as it relates to our engineers, are when they're waking up, our furthest West Coast team is going

39:12

to sleep. Let's say they found the book at

39:14

the end of the year. They just finished their design. I'm finished minded Ryan. I send it to the engineers by the time that person on the West Coast wakes up that stuff done and those guys were finishing their day. So this notion of like, we have very fast response times because we have almost a 24 hour working schedule. Sure. And really quickly. That was the reason I moved to New York. We had West Coast in Tel Aviv at 11 to 12 hour difference, depending on the time changed, not very conducive to productivity. New York and the East Coast is really great, because now I'm significantly closer to Europe and the middle leaks in terms of times. I'm sure, um and that's actually wide. You know,

I moved to the East Coast and set up headquarters here or one of our headquarters because it enabled us to have a better straddle on time zone. Yeah, um, but that's probably one of the most important being very conscious of you not having all your team in one place because it ends up making it. You don't get the benefit of this pass the baton.

40:4

I never I didn't even think of the time zone advantage. I don't even think of that. But that is interesting because, you know, customer service lines, you know, people have to sleep. So 8 to 5 Maybe your customer service person is going home. So yet the wait till the next day to get to people. But you guys don't have to do that. You guys could just have this seamless handoff that just keep going, um, on forever, Which is kind of interesting. One of the things that I know a lot of listeners deal within the work remote work from home scenario. This is probably the most famous, ah,

irritating part of remote work is the whole at it and any came here and you have to do it again. First, you're probably like what the heck has happened. So that's but that's what people are used to write. And by the way, just just to know, I was not muting my mike. I can do that on command. It's, um it's ah, it's a stupid human trick I have. So I think that's what a lot of people are used to, though, When their phones break up and when people meet, you know? Hey, you're on mute, that kind of thing. So do the first question is, has your staff a this point been trained where they don't do those rookie mistakes like do you do we ever get used to the

41:14

That's, I mean naturally, that back to the early part of like making sure your work from home or your remote work set up is good? Yeah, big piece of that is Internet connection and phone connection, right? So, um, yeah. I mean, just talking to someone yesterday. She's, you know, remote right now and doesn't have the grip. Best Internet. So I had to get her a T and t WiFi puck to make sure she could have better service. Sure,

it's part of shown up to do the job. And if your phone's breaking up like that, it's, you know, your shown up, not ready to do the job for the day. Oh, time it's you're on old technology or your Internet sucks. Those air kind of the two. It comes down to right, and both of them are very solvable problems. I think it's back toe you've been working from home, or the only time you use the Internet is the check email or watch Netflix here and there. Your maybe not catching these issues with your home network, for example, right?

I think it puts the importance on. Like when you come to work, you show up with your tools, and your tools are you know, you better have headphones, noise canceling headphones, a microphone. You better have. Ah, you know all the things that allow you to actually connect. Um, And you had the bummer is he's still run into the your on. You can't hear You can't see your screen. Like this stuff, I hope continues to get better. Particularly ads were all stress testing remote work right now,

and they don't work tools. Um, but as band with improves, you know, everyone moving to gigabit connections, let's say or something and just should should start to fade away in some way.

42:33

Sure. So even so, that does lead into what problems do you guys run into? And, Ah, what problems did you run into at the beginning? And what problems are you still running into? And then, of course, how did you fix those

42:46

career question? Yeah, I kind of alluded. One of the first ones was not being conscious of time zone differences, so we were just hiring the best people anywhere. Not really thinking through Oh, wow. There's no one on the West Coast. This will be difficult. Nine PM PST Comes around right Sometimes on was a difficult problem we encountered. We overcame that by being more conscious of like no more of this type of person in this time zone. We, this type of person in these times of being very conscious about time zones. That was a stress in a pain point, mostly because, like some of us would have to catch the slack there, right,

being up late or getting up early, surely a sustainable thing? Um, I think, I mean, there's probably a long list of actual problems. You ran into device management. It's pretty hard for an organization as you scale. How do you get your laptop back when someone bought it and live somewhere far away from you? Write your processes. I think we've, you know, how much do you let them expense when they're moving into a place, what's the standard we allow someone to expect? So I think you can run into a couple of these, I think device management.

It's being mindful, making sure they signed documents and information that, like clearly, they're going to give devices back and ship them back It's a lot different than when. No. When they check out for the day and give their badge. Not really this the same. So being smart about device management and making sure you're managing that in somewhere. Um, I'd say today one of the problems we still encounter is making sure we could have the talent distributed stills. I think times I was not a problem anymore, but we're very conscious of it as we're recruiting. That just makes the search a little bit harder. But I think it's, you know, it's a problem we encounter.

I think the other is, is as we got bigger, everyone getting together becomes significantly harder. And I think early it was easier to get 20 people together, 30 people together, 15 people together. But as he became 100 200 people, it's been a lot harder to get everybody together, right, and we're still trying to figure out what's the best way to do that right. We have all hands and you do think digitally. But how do we really get together for a summit or convention together? Um um, and it's it's frankly, it's hard to make that work from a financial sense, right?

Very expensive. The fly. A bunch of people around the world. Oh, yeah, Absolutely. Today we're still trying to figure out how do we scale this portion of the business, like how to be create Maurin person space and the people who are in the hubs New York, San Francisco, Tel Aviv, where there's a bundle of people. You get this in person culture, everyone smile right at least when you want it. The challenge we have is what about the person in San Diego all by themselves, right? Or Chicago.

You have no one there. Those people are generally by themselves, right? And I think for a lot of them, it's figuring out maybe they do need to fly to, ah once 1/4 or once every six months. Or the people who aren't in the hubs need to figure out a way to, like, actually be impersonal at someone. Because I think particularly earlier in, you know, earlier in our history, when we hired someone, we made it a really big point to get them into one of the city's with somebody. And that means like a lot of my first hired, I'd just buy them the San Francisco right for 80 bucks,

160 bucks. I could follow you into the city before we, like, get started. Really great. Way to, like, kick off working with someone. So I think that's been a hard and difficult thing to scale. As you know, the organization gets much larger. It's easier when you're team small. Eso replacing in person is a short way, like How do we create that? At scale now was the view on the company's small? It's getting

45:55

harder, as were bigger. It is cool to see, though, that you guys do see you still see that value for in person, which isn't which is interesting to hear the D. So you mentioned hubs. I'm just assuming that's like your your remote offices because you have offices in some of the bigger cities where you have more than one employee. That's what you mean.

46:14

Yeah, I'd say if there's more than 3 to 5 people in a city we pushed to get space, and that may just be a We work for three people, right? Yeah, whatever it is. But any city that had more than 3 to 5 people in close distance and if we asked them and they want you to find them some small coworking space for them to co locate in. And that's back to like we believe in. And I think it's important, like the It's about the tradeoffs, right? So you losing the in person, that's totally not good. It's better to be in person with someone in collaborating. There's distractions, like all the negatives of remote work and work from home are true. It's just that,

at least in my opinion, they don't outweigh the benefits. And the benefit is like better quality of life, better access, the talent and then this, like constant work schedule, which allows your organization to move faster based three or just more of a benefit than losing the in person and these others you could. We still see the value in yeah in person and some of these other, more traditional ways of working. How do we work them in two remote work? It's definitely ah that we really value the in person time. It's been hard now. The organization grew so significantly it's Do you just get groups together like maybe the marketing team gets together for a summit Yes, team or the sales team and that work. But then they're still not getting this, like camaraderie,

right? When, Right and then, you know, when work across collaboration, camaraderie gets hard? Um,

47:30

yeah, and work culture, probably. You know, like that. People talk about work, culture, taking a hit and work work remotely. And, you know, we're wrapping up here, but do you guys see that, too?

47:40

Yeah, I think that's an important one. Where a take where it takes active investment. So making sure you're conscious of we need to create it it doesn't happen is naturally with the water cooler. So our organization, we have a bunch of fun, slack channels that kind of keep people active with trivia and, you know, sharing things and my making Sure there's places in which you can still recreate the water cooler is important. How do you have games? We've done all sorts of stuff playing, you know, games over Google hangouts, something. Sure, that's how do you foster? Yeah,

some fun time between people, right? And I think that's generally where you create friendships and longer lasting relationships. But we've been pulled. We've tried a lot of random things. Let's lacquers, something called doughnut and snack time. And how do you get people to chat? Who usually wouldn't chat? Um, I don't know if there's the final answer, other than my being conscious that you need to create the culture and it takes a little bit more work than when you're on the same.

48:30

All right mind, I think the most important question is, how do you steal each other's lunch out of the company fridge? If you're not working together, do you guys just probably send an email or call people spouses and asked them, Teoh ship it to you. That's probably that's, you know that's whatever, but that's the next evolution of working remotely. How do you pull office shenanigans? So, Scott, when you do figure that out, let's get you back on the show. We can do office remote work office shenanigans with Scott McCloud, founding member and chief of staff of Resident Scott. Thank you so much for joining me in the listeners today. How do people reach out to you, or how do they learn more about your company? What's the easiest way to do that?

49:10

You know, resident home dot com or Ah, Riel. Stop Macleod. Non Twitter for myself.

49:16

And that was Riel. Scott McCloud. Yeah. Cool, Scott, Thank you so much.

49:22

Yeah, thank you so much. Just There's a lot of fun. Thanks for having me

49:25

up next. Employee burnout is quite a big issue, and it's not necessarily linked to hours worked, which is kind of surprising, but with all these remote workers, it can even complicate things worse. But it doesn't have to. That's we're talking about. Next. Burn out is an issue. It really is. And I've felt it. You probably felt it. You probably know exactly what that feels like, but it's not linked to employee hours. I mean, employees hours do play.

Sure, they play a little bit of a role here. They have a little bit of an impact, but it's not the thing. According to Gallup, most employees do experience burnout. So here the numbers. We're gonna rattle these through pretty quick. 76% of people experience it. Sometimes 21% experience it very often. 7% experience it always 20% rarely experience it in 20. Excuse me, and 4% never experience it. So that's almost 1/4 of people just for like, huh? That's not a thing,

which is kind of interesting. So here's the problem. The problem is burned out employees, right? Like the they do cost your entity or in your organization, money they do cost. Ah, like you know, hits on collaboration. It is a problem. So this isn't something we can just brush off. Burned out employees are more likely to take sick days, and they're more likely to actually visit the emergency room. Here's the numbers on that. The Gallup has 63% more likely to take a sick day and 23% likely to visit the emergency room. That's kind of crazy,

burned out employees, so that is a major cost for you. Just like last week, we're talking about people that have finances on their mind. That is a cost for you. Burnout is, too, so they dig into why, and it's often assumed, and I assume the same thing. You probably do, too, like it is just too many hours. You're working too many hours. Tone it back, and so that's how you know that's the solution.

Most people come to just take another vacation or reduce your hours. Get time off, make sure you're taking breaks throughout the day. These are generally this is generally the advice we give people. And sure, Like I said, the data does say hours do have an impact. More specifically, if you cross over the 50 hour threshold and climb higher than 60 then sure, yeah, it can start having an impact. However, here's the most important thing. How people experience their workload has a stronger influence on burnout than hours worked. According to Gallup. Engaged employees who have job flexibility tend to work more hours per week than the average employee while reporting higher well being.

So people working more hours in an engaged workplace actually feel better and experience burnout less gonna continue to quote when people feel inspired, motivated and supported in their work. They do more work, and that work is significantly less stressful on their overall health and well being. In summary, they say, not just the number of hours you work. It's how you're managed and how you experience work during those hours. That's what's key. So there are some top factors that actually impact burnout, and there five of them unfair treatment at work is number one. Number two is unmanageable. Workload Number three is unclear. Communication from managers number four is lack of manager support, and number five is unreasonable time pressure. So those are the factors that are actually burning people out at work.

My hunch, just based on some anecdotes and some data we collected on that survey a little while back, is that people feel like they're working mawr at home because the lines are blurred because they get distracted and it's making things difficult at home. I think people think they're working harder at home because they start work earlier and they work later. Like, you know, they're starting work right when they get up at seven, and then they're working later till seven PM so they think they're working longer. But in reality, they're just getting distracted a lot heading to the you know, you know, because your at homes, your kids or distracting it. So it just feels like, um or busy work day. And so it's interesting that the top factors that actually promote burnout play into this right.

Unclear communication from managers, lack of manager support, unreasonable time pressure, these all these things that Gallup out outlines affect remote workers in a very, very peculiar way. As I'm outlining the whole like the schedule kind of weird and Scott talked about one of the things they say is you have to have a defined work area. You have to have that. You can't just be in the kitchen table or the couch, because then the work day and the at home experience kind of mesh in tow. One it becomes stressful, becomes hard to manage. So here's how this all plays out for managers, CEO's directors, whatever of remote workers. So the Gallup presents some really interesting ways. This manifests itself in the remote workspace employees not knowing or understanding their new expectations and accountability practices.

Employees feeling untrusted, unseen or unheard. Employees not being able to separate work in life. That's a big one. Employees feeling detached from team and organizational culture. We talked about that with Scott employees feeling isolated and lonely and employees not knowing how to create boundaries with colleagues. So this does impact remote workers, and here's Here's what's really scary. You're not scary. That's that's That's a bit dramatic, but they're probably not going to share this with you. because they're guilty. After all, they're working from home and they shouldn't be burned out. So it's on you. Managers now you can.

You can hope for the best. You can assume people will set up the workplace and they will organize their time at home properly. But they might not, and they probably won't. So it's on you managers to encourage good work practices. It's on you like Scott was talking about. It's on you to go over. How are you going to work from home? Let's figure this out. Let's establish some best practices. Let's establish some frequent touch ins so that employees do understand the expectations and accountability practices so employees do feel trusted, seen and heard. So employees aren't detached, and they're able to separate work from life, work with them, help them figure this stuff out and work with them so they're not isolated and lonely.

Member Scott was talking about like check ins. Stuff like that also helped them create boundaries with Col. Leagues maybe say, Hey guys, once five hits, the servers were going down. I know there's one kinds of VW. Maybe that does this Ah, David Berkus book. He talks about this under new management. He basically says There's one company that shuts off their email servers at like five PM so you can still send your emails. You can still read him, but you can't disturb other people by sending them and making them feel a so they're supposed to respond. Those are things you can do, like some bosses work really well at 9 p.m. And they want to, and that's fine.

They should be able to do that. But they shouldn't be able to scare the crap out of employees that feel like they're supposed to respond immediately. So some companies actually shut the servers down. So those air interesting things quickly. Before we go today, I want to talk briefly about this bubble Wallace thing and why the word racism and racist are extremely serious words. They're being deluded right now, and you have a role to play. That's what we're talking about next. So for those that don't know Bubble Wallace is a NASCAR driver, and there was a noose found he's a black NASCAR driver. I think he's the only one, and there was a noose found in his garage, and so in solidarity a bunch of the players walked alongside him. He was in his car was this big emotional moment. But it didn't take more than,

ah hour or so for people to start raising some questions about the incident being in its in its validity. And some photos started coming out of noose like objects. They're they're just known as door polls. It's, you know, it's a little loop in a rope so that you can your hand can grab the garage door and pull it down. That's that's all it is. These were actually quite common. And so within seconds, people started posting photos. And sure enough, the FBI got involved and reported that's exactly what it was. The news had actually been there. They reported initially for months, but turns out it's been there for years. Photos,

of course, from last year's race actually show that these were just attached to the garage doors. It's a little loop for your hand to get in and pull things down. So if Twitter had okay, here's the thing. If to I want to breathe, go over this. Twitter had photos the same day. Why didn't NASCAR Why didn't NASCAR step in sooner and stop this thing. Wallace has been racing for five years. Their photos. It's not new. It looks like, by the way, it looks like a loop, not or maybe a Cray loop or a slip knot.

That's you know what it looks like. So its adjustable. But now I think bottom line NASCAR needs to apologize. I'm not really sure if, um, Bubble Wallace needs Teoh. It sounds like he didn't even discover it. Someone told him it was there, so this, But this should have never even turned into an incident at all. They should have handled this and not freaked everybody out, especially at a time like this. Now here's the thing that's unfair, and you should not be doing. People are linking this to the Jesse Small it scam. These are not the same.

Juicy actually created an entire fake scenario. Bubba did not. Apparently, he didn't even see it. Someone else did, and reported to him, So, you know, think about this just for a second. Tensions are already pretty high. Someone I think he's probably taken some blame for the Confederate flag ban and NASCAR. It's not really a stretch that the guys a bit scared or his team is looking out for him, right? That's not much of a stretch. I don't think especially with how the media is playing this, like racist,

her on every corner, waiting to pounce. And so he might have been. He was probably a little Shaked. So you know what? I give him a free pass. This probably terrifying. It could be, if that's that. That's all you heard, Dude, someone hung a noose in your garage like that's kind of scary. So here's the problem. Here is the problem. This spread so quickly with zero evidence whatsoever. And now that it turns out to be not a real incident now,

um, Bubble Wallace is being accused of scamming and faking this whole thing again with no evidence whatsoever. It's the same problem. People just jump without knowing any part of this. And what's worse is people jumped to really, really serious heavy terms like racist and racism. Those terms nowadays, I'd even venture to say, white supremacist, think of the most evil thing you can think of, and people just jump to those terms Nazi. Whatever. Racism is extremely real. There are people think about this. There are people that believe a black or white person actually has lower status. Give this just 10 seconds of pause sometime after the show's over.

It is truly horrifying. It is angering. It is sad, and it shows how amazingly lost and dare I say evil people can be. Racism is a serious classification if you use the word racist or racism that is extremely, extremely serious. But now it's become extremely deluded and convoluted, without a second thought. I see so many people label others someone they don't even know they label them is racist where they call their actions. Ah, racism. Even worse, this term has been widely weaponized to take people out. Instead of engaging in real conversations, people uncomfortable with alternate world views just hurriedly reach for this term and label someone else's racist. Instead of considering uncomfortable viewpoints and learning from each other,

the racist label is hurriedly applied to absolve oneself of responsibility, toe, learn or connect with another human. I mean, think about it. No one's gonna blame you if you refuse to speak to a racist or a Nazi or a white supremacist, right? So now we have a problem today, the term racist can apply to anyone. It's a very, very large spectrum. The news does this individuals do this Social media is, ah, plagued with this. The term racist can apply to anyone from someone who says something insensitive that you don't like. To one who actually believes skin color defined your human worth.

Anything in that spectrum is now racist that's even applied to inconvenient political enemies. This dilute a serious and dangerous term, but it gets worse than that. Wide use of this term puts many groups of people who are actually a line and on the same side you and me listening to this against each other instead of us all fighting against racism and Racists. Together, we actually end up fighting people we completely agree with. I see Democrats and Republicans calling each other Racists, and they're on the same side and the rial Racists. And this is that this is the sad thing. The rial racist, the rial racist acts end up blending right into the noise, making it difficult to educate and train kids, making it difficult to educate and train people who actually do have racism in their family. Perhaps it's crazy. The term almost has no wait anymore. It's a It's a weaponized term now.

It almost has no riel weight. And that is terrible because it's a bad, bad term. So here's what I think we all need to dio. Here's how you can help. You can help by walking friends, political leaders and anybody else who uses these terms back. Welcome back when people tossed these terms about carelessly. Now it's probably gonna be hard. I've done this before. Someone like on this person is just a racist. And, I immediate said, waving, Well, why you calling him a racist?

That's a very serious term. They immediately got furious with me that I wouldn't see that. And they're like and they started to kind of make drop hints that I, in fact, was probably racist because I didn't see what they saw. Now we have a great relationship to this day. We ended up having an amazing conversation. It opened up an incredible conversation, and that's what happens with riel humans. If you push back on them a little bit and ask honest questions, this is vital. We need to ensure this label does not get diluted. We need a band against those who truly believe that the color of your skin and not the content of your character defines you. Everybody thank you so much for joining me today on the Justin Brady Show. I always love hearing from you just in k brady dot com hit the menu button at the bottom and click contact to send me a message to my phone and actually budgets buzzes my phone. It's really cool.

Also, this week I'm sending a free resource to everybody on my list. One of my clients had their content ripped off and they worked with me. We ended up turning in turning this entire stolen content debacle into a major PR S e a win for them. If you want to see how he pulled that off, I'm sending that to my list. Justin K. Brady dot com slash access Just go sign up there again. That's Justin. K. Brady dot com slash access Everybody, thank you so much for joining me.

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