I've always said it's not life threatening Morley threatening on the healthy. Let It Go

Hello and welcome on Shame Parish. And this is another episode of the Knowledge Project podcast exploring the ideas, methods and mental models that help you learn from the best what other people have already figured out. Learn more in step to date at F s Stop Log slash podcast on the show today is Barbara Colossal. Barbara's a best selling author on parenting, teaching, school discipline, bullying, grieving, nonviolent conflict resolution and restorative justice and so much more. A friend of mine first introduced me to Barbara after she had her speak at a medical conference. My friend said that Barbara was one of the most popular talks, and people were hungry for more. So I bought Barbara's book. Kids are worth it. And after seeing all of my own parenting flaws exposed on the pages, I knew we had to chat Well.

This episode is geared towards parents, I promise. Even if you don't have kids, you will learn a lot. Chances are you want kids. You know somebody with kids or you occasionally look after kids. You come away with tools and techniques as well as a firm understanding what kids need to be successful. It's time to listen and learn way before we get started. Here's a quick word from our sponsor. Burnham Street is sponsored by Metal Lab. For a decade, mental lab has helped some of the world's top companies and entrepreneurs build products that millions of people use every day. You probably didn't realize it at the time, but odds are you've used an app that they've helped design or build absolutely slack. Coin based Facebook Messenger, Oculus,

Lonely Planet and so many more Mental Lab wants to bring the unique design philosophy to your project. Let them take your brainstorm and turn it into the next $1,000,000,000 up from idea sketched on the back of a napkin to a final ship product. Check the Merida Metal Lab dot Co. That's metal ab dot Co, and when you get in touch, tell them Shane saying you, Barbara, I'm so happy to have you on the Knowledge project.

Thank you for having me. It's a joy,

I think. I read that in the sixties you entered a convert to become a nun at the age of 17. What led you to do that.

I entered the convent, a San Franciscan convent at 17. What do you really know? Other than I wanted to work with kids with special needs, having been a lifeguard in taught special needs in swimming. And I had my dad's cousins. One was a monk. When was a priest? One was a nun, and the other was a woman who had seven kids. So, uh, that was his cousin batch. And so I grew up knowing them. And when I, um, talk Thio sister Jeanne Marie,

um, about what I was thinking of, she suggested a Franciscan order in Milwaukee that also ran the collector school. Which is where, Joseph, I mean, John Kennedy's sister was at. So that's what got me to the Princess skin convent. I'm glad I went, and I'm really glad I left. It was a good experience in my life for three, um and I'm glad I left. I have a husband and three kids, and no, I didn't meet him in the convent. You wasn't a priest.

I met him after I left the convent. So that'll answer all the Catholics questions on that one. Um, I have three kids and three wonderful grandchildren as well. So, um,

is that where you learned to teach

at the convent? Yes. I got my teaching degree after I left the convent, but I was pursuing it. I was a year away when I last the order. Um, anyone listening to me would know that we take three vows. Chastity, obedience on poverty. I grew up very poor. So that wasn't an issue, Chastity. I was too young to know what I was really giving up with that. But the obedience was a difficult one for me, because all along in all of my work, I talk about raising people who will stand up values and against injustices. And ah,

at that point in my life, it seemed like I was to be obedient to the bishop. I know better now, but it just seemed like that, and I was not gonna do that. Um, it's obedient to the gospel, and that's what I live today. But yes, that was abusing my journey. That's where I got most of my special ed training. And then I left the convent and finished up at the University of Northern Colorado. Uh, and that's where I met my husband at a, uh, migrant protest march was Cesar Chavez. Best group on Guy had been involved in civil rights as a nun in Milwaukee,

and then you started teaching on Lee. Everything you had found out about what you learned about teaching turned out to be not true.

The area of behavior modification because that was big in the late sixties. On that again getting kids to do what I want him to. Dubai, using rewards and bribes and threats and punishment really went against actually what I was learning in my theology and philosophy courses which were required as a nun and they ran headlong into that with This is how we should bribe Children and threaten them and reward them and punish them. And so, in my real world experience in the classroom, um, I realized that I would far better rely on my philosophy, sociology and theology, training to work with kids. And I came up with three basic tenants. One kids were worth it. I believe they're worth our time. Energy and resource is to help them become all they can become. Um, second, I won't treat them in a way I myself would not want to be treated if I wouldn't want it done to me.

Um, I'm not gonna do it to a child, and the third is it works. It must leave my dignity and the child's dignity intact now, just if it works or appears to work. But does it work in the both of our dignity intact?

What, You're leaving your dignity

intact? Um, that I'm not doing things to that child. That would like hitting a child. I am opposed to that. Ah, because I think it destroys their sense of self worth and dignity. And in return, I have harmed a child, and I want to look at alternatives. The title of my video, my very 1st 1 was winning at parenting without beating your kids and winning at teaching without beating your kids. And I mean that no, in a humorous way, but also in a serious way, because we still have 19 states in this country that allow corporal punishment. But I'm talking more about the power struggles we get into with kids,

and this is where I felt that bribes and threats, rewards and punishments which, by the way, have become an insidious part of our culture really interferes with raising an ethical human being. And that's where I went back to my sociology and life, theology and philosophy. I want a child who will stand up for values against injustices when it costs them. Not when they're getting rewarded for catching being good, because it's all about getting caught when the high status social bully says to all the other girls in Great Eight. If you want to be in my group, which is a reward, don't eat lunch with the new girl. Um, I want your daughter to be the one to say, That's mean, that's cruel and have the courage.

And it does take courage to go sit next to the new girl because she will do that at cost. She is not gonna get any scratch and sniff stickers and stars. Lunch with the principle, which will probably get is only skinny two shoes or you're next and I want your sons when their friends say, Look at that kid over there. Different skin color, religion, gender, physical or mental ability. The Big Five for hate crimes, what makes a hate crime different than any other crime it's criminal bullying and the kids, eh? Let's go mess him up. I want your son to be the one to say no when the burden's heavy, when his friends say, What do you chicken?

What do you just like him? So I looked both as a parent, Dennis and educator is how do we raise a generation willing to stand up and speak out and step in and not be praised? Dependent, reward, dependent, praise, dependent, reward dependent Children make wonderful henchman for bullies. They will do the bullies bidding because they want whatever reward that bully is dangling in front of. I want young people to do the right thing when it's difficult to dio. And so what do we do in the classroom of what do we do at home that encourages that we give them opportunities to make choices and decisions and mistakes? We hold them accountable and allow them to see that they truly do have agency in their lives. That what they do matters.

I want to do ah, huge, deep dive into that. What does it mean to hold them accountable? What does it mean to make the mon their decisions? Can you walk me through what that means, not only in the classroom, for the teachers that they're listening, but also at home for the parents like myself, who, you know, probably default to this sort of, like reward punishment, uh,

do its part of our culture. Well, let's look at, um, first giving them choices and decisions. I don't say to a two year old. Do you want to go to bed or not? Um, that's not a decision they get to make. But I do say, Do you want to go to bed now with your rep a jamas or now with your blue pajamas and they show up Red bottoms blue top? I've always said it's not life threatening Morley threatening and healthy levity it Go stick with the big stuff you need to get hysterical about, and so they show up with that mix. Then you constantly increase responsibilities, decisions both at home and in the classroom. That gives them the opportunity to make those choices really choices. So I go from red pajama blue pajama to three outfits,

picked one. Here's your school clothes here should play clothes, pick something from your school clothes and regularly our middle daughter would show up with the layered look. All school clothes just definitely layer. Now I know a lot of parents who would say, Go pick out an outfit. Oh, you can't wear that one now It's not life threatening to a kid where the layered look. It's painful, per parent, but it's not like that. You let it go. It's the issues on the wrong feet. If they hurt, they move. Um,

but we worry. Worry, worry. I've yet to see a senior issues on the wrong feet, but a lot of their early childhood worried about it. No, it's it's letting go and saying What truly can it can do? Eight appropriate ability, appropriate? That'll be different for each child. And our goal is to constantly increase responsibilities and decision making decreased limits and boundaries so that when they leave our homes in our schools, um, they are truly responsible for all of their own behavior and for their own choices in terms of mistakes they made and how to fix them and the like. So you start with responsibilities and decision making. Um and then, after we'd looked at that in all areas,

I asked educators Do you have a plan from kindergarten through Grade 12 in this district to increase responsibilities and decision making, an academic skills, work, study skills and an effective skills? Because that's how kids are successful. And you have that plan to constantly increase that again, helping them develop what I call inner discipline, self discipline. And then I look at what do we do at home or at school if they make a mistake, create mischief or cause mayhem? Now I must say, right up front, any and all bullying because it's an attack on another human being is mayhem. But there are degrees of mayhem, and not all mayhem is bullying. You could have a one on one fight that's so serious that it becomes mayhem so that,

aside, when kids make a mistake, bowling's on a mistake. Calling somebody gross name Dunking your head in the toilet is not a mistake. Um, and although people say, Oh, he made a big mistake. No, he didn't. He created mayhem, so let's look at the distinction. Their child runs along leaving art class, and his felt tip marker has the lid off, and he's accidentally marking up the wall. That's a mistake.

Another child does tick tack toe on the wall. That's mischief. Another child writes. A gross term and another child's name. That's mayhem all three markings. But the intent is different. So what? I want young people to know again, a whole minute school that if you make a mistake, it's a very simple formula. Simple doesn't make it easy with a mistake. You own it, you fix it, you learn from it and you move on. So is educators. If we know and I've seen it posted in classrooms after,

I've done lectures in schools that whether you're a kindergarten kid or 1/12 grader, if you make a mistake, your job is the own it fix it, learned from it. Move on. If it's mischief, we show them what they've done wrong. Give them ownership of the problem. Give him ways to solve it, leave their dignity intact. If it's mayhem, we do three yards. It's called Restore. It'd practices restitution, resolution and reconciliation. In other words,

you have to own and fix what you did. Figure out how you're going to keep it from happening again and find a way to hell with the person that you have truly harmed. And so going back, if a child makes a mistake, a three year old drops a glass on the floor. Or a 16 year old in a lab class drops a beaker that has caustic material. Both our mistakes. They were not intentional. They have to own it. They can't blame it on a crooked table. They can't blame it on a slipper glass. They have to fix it now. Three year old cannot pick up glass, but they can run. Get a bag and you could pick up the glass. Will they hold the bag and they can help mop up the floor.

The 16 year old can't pick up the caustic material, but he can get the HAZ mat kit, and you can demonstrate to the whole class how you pick up caustic material than he has to replace the beaker. And then he has to do is experiment again. So own it, takes it, learn from it, move on with a three year old, you say. Which of these two plastic glasses would you like to use today? That same principle of own it, Fix it, learn from it, move on so we don't have to have Ah ah, lot of confusing rules and and levels of discipline. You know,

if the kid dunks a kid's head in the toilet, which is mayhem, I am not going to give him a warning or her a warning. I mean, we're gonna t treat it as mean and cruel right away.

How did you handle that

with a child taking another kid's head

in the toilet? Yeah, Or writing on the wall with the name and the

OK. The name on the wall. Restitution owned that you did it and own and fix it. So you've got a race it now let's say they said it online as well. They have to go in and try to get that off, which is almost impossible. It could be scrubbed. That's expensive, but you can also have the child send down a message. I said these ugly things. You don't repeat it, but I said these ugly things to say about this person. What I said was meaning Kroll. If you received it, would you please delete it? If you send it on to others? Would you send this note on?

It's a humbling experience for them to do that. But if it's on the wall, then they have to scrub it off and own that. They did it, Fix it. And second is figure out how you're going to keep it from happening again. And most kids will say, Oh, I won't do that again I said, Well, that's good. That's what you won't do. I want you to tell me what you will do. And this is where your wisdom is. An educator, a parent will come in And they said,

Well, I don't know. I suppose one of the things you could do, um, if he was on the computer is not use your computer for a period of time till you can demonstrate with supervision after that that you can use it in a way that civil and, um savvy, smart and kind. Um And so? And another thing you can do is I never demand an apology. I can say what you can own, what you did to the person. You did it too, because you asked for an apology. You get one of three kinds alone story real heartfelt, or I'm sorry. I'm sorry.

I'm sorry. They keep doing it. again, again. It's like some people use confession. Some people listening will have no idea what I'm talking about. Uh, or they will, uh, say I'm sorry you were offended. Which, by the way, is not an apology. What? What I do say to them is you need to let them know that you did this and that you're fixing it. Um and that I do demand I don't demand an apology,

but they must fix what they did and other things like, let's say they called somebody. A name is sitting in class and it was overheard by may I say woo no more, not here. Never. That was me. That was cruel. And this is safe harbor for every child in this classroom. And they need to to fix it in a somewhat. I just won't call her neighbors to know you're going to hear some options. You can sit in front of class. You could sit the back big class for the rest of term. You cannot sit near her giving them options. Obviously, they're not coming up with this, but I give him options that they can choose to do for some kids.

If it's serious, enough. You need to take a different English class so that kid is not tormented the rest of this term. Now what? Let's look at your schedule. Oh, but that means I would have lunch with my friends. Oh, that's a bummer. Yeah, maybe you'll think about not calling anybody gross names because it meant you had a change. Your English

class does that eventually foster a sense of responsibility and kids for their actions.

It that's the whole thing is from rent a time, a blue pajama through all of this, both discipline and choices. You're helping young people say that I have agency in my life, that what I do matters and that I can affect change in the world, and it could be for good or for ill. And that's a choice I get to make. I want them to see they do have choices that they can make. The third step is probably the most difficult to hell with the person you've harmed. When the person who was targeted is ready Now, if you don't the kid's head in the toilet, he may never be ready to meet with you, and that's what that child needs a liver. The kid who did the dunking has to live with Zach. You don't even want you around. But others when it was called a gross name assistant down with the kid and I'm there and it's not conflict resolution that's totally separate. That's done with conflict,

not with bullying. When it is, I say, OK, first thing you have to do, and I've talked to the kid who was targeted. I give them tools for standing up and speaking out when it happens to them, we wanna help them. We want to empower them. But I also feel that what the other person did was mean and cruel and bullying. We stop. So when they sit down together that the bully has to say, this is what I did often whether Target wants to hear is the bully just admitting they did it. And if they have a smirk on their face when they say it, I say we're done, We're done.

We're not ready yet because the kid is still smiling and smirking about the event. They don't have any remorse for it yet, so I stopped it all. But my mom will let me use the computer until I get through this process. That's a bummer. Come back without the smirk on your face. But most of the time they're ready. And they say, I did call you, um, a gross name, and I regret that, and this is how I want to fix it. I'm going to sit in the back of the class and the other child, my psycho. You don't have to do that.

Just don't call me names, but they might say good at the back of the glasses in the front. Um then they say, You know what? I like You invite you to sit at the lunch table with us because this group of girls and on myself locked you out of the lunch room or a chat room, and we'd like to invite you. Now the targeted kid might say Thank you. I'd love to sit with you, but they might not. They might say what Steve Saskin said. That powerful song that he and Alan Champlin wrote in Peter, Paul and Mary made famous. Don't laugh at me. Don't laugh at me. Don't call me names. Don't take your pleasure from my pain and he says,

I'm not asking you to be my friend. But is it too much to ask the life of me? Don't call me names. And so the targeted child might say, I don't want to sit at lunch with you. Thank you for the offer. Most targeted kids, air kind, caring people. So they might say Thank you, but I don't want to do that. I just need to know that when they send any class, I'm not going to be called a gross name. When I go online, I don't see my name. I'm not locked out of a chat room.

This is what I need in restorative practices from that kind of scenario of mayhem. What we do is we empower the targeted kid and we humble, not humiliate. I'm not into humiliation, but we humble the person who did the meaning. Cruel act. Um, I don't care whether it's kids at home because we do have sibling bullying or kids at school. The process is basically the three R's restitution resolution and reconciliation, and they need us to help them get through that, Um, the middle one. Uh, our son had made a mistake. Um, he,

uh, made a goal for the opposing team in a major tournament. Um, and people on the sidelines were yelling and screaming. He came out of goalie, went on the field, fell down on his shoe, lace is untied and not off traffic ball, and went down as his teammate of screaming. No, Joe, No, Joe, this is her. Cole and Joey was ready to make that goal, and you made a beautiful left with a goal and then realized

it was on the

wrong net. E. His coach handled that beautifully. He demonstrated owning mistakes. He said, Joseph, get over here and Joe walks over, he says. I'm sorry, Coach. I'm sorry, he said. I don't want it. I'm sorry. That was a beautiful goal. Now get out there and get one for us. You see it?

The coach said, Own it. Don't blame it on your back. You came out of Golden. You don't blame it on the fact you fell on your shoe laces. Just own it. I made a goal for the other team. Fix it, learn from it, move on so we can use that in our everyday life with all ages of Children. After about age, to even adult, Oh, fall stages of our lives.

What does that differ It all if you have siblings and, like conflict between siblings,

conflicts normal, it's natural. It's necessary.

How should parents think about handling that? Like, say, you had under of 7 to 9 year olds at home and their bickering

over the TV? A TV show? Sure, yeah. Um, what you need to understand is as loose, Loescher said. Conflict is inevitable. Violence is not so. Our job is rising. Caring parents is to teach him to handle that conflict known violently. Two kids fighting over a TV program. I talked about three kinds of families. The brick wall, the jellyfish in the backbone. The brick wall goes, Stop it,

Stop it! Stop it turned that set off. Nobody's watching it and points a finger at, Um Ah, which shows them that we can't handle our own conflicts. It's when adult is around it and they stop us. Uh, and that doesn't serve them well. When we're not around, jellyfish goes old. Please, your brothers and sisters. You're supposed to love one another. Don't do this to me. That doesn't help him either. Backbone parent understands the slower you walk.

The quieter you are, the better your chances of it being over before you get there. And if it's still going on, you just take the remote, turn the set off, model it for them and say you're both fighting. You don't say. Give me your side of the story. Give me your side story. I've never gotten a new story other to editorial, so I'm not going to bother. So I say you're fighting. You may turn this setback on as soon as you both have a plan. Now, whether any new Blue, they never say it nicely.

Oh, Mom, we need a plan, so don't count on it. But one of three things will happen. They'll share. They'll both get up and leave it, or one of them will come up with the plan they both can live with, as long as the one who came up with the plan does not use brute force or intimidation. I mean, if one says I'm gonna beat you over the head, you say that's not a good plan. I mean, there's a reason we're hanging with kids are gonna grow up, but we have to be there to raise them unless they Because we get Lord of the Flies, you know?

So I say to them a note that won't work. Come up with another plan. You see, I haven't said what? You can't hit your brother. You don't get hysterical. You just know that I'm gonna work. Uh, and but if one said you let me watch this one today, you can have two tomorrow. Now, you and the older kid. No. Tomorrow Saturday, nothing's on. Don't say a word.

This is not a teachable moment. It comes the next day when that little one goes, it's not fair. There's nothing on. I say I noticed you're giving in to your big brother a lot. Would you like to learn a few good lines? And you teach on the lines? Like I'm willing to let you watch this program today If I can have this one on Monday, this one on Tuesday, and I want it in writing. You teach that someone do, that number's gonna walk all over him, right? So you give them both the tools to handle their conflicts and and they'll have to practice and they'll make mistakes. And you keep working with him. and you know they go through this process and then 10 minutes later they might be fighting again and you walk in and you turn the TV.

Oh, and pretty soon they get the idea of Mom. We can do it. We can have. I know, I know. We need a plan. They get it. But it will serve them well at home in its school. Um, and so that's really important that we teach him that. However, sibling bullying is something we have ignored for too long. There's a fascinating research project done by GOP out of England, a 20 year longitudinal study that showed that Children who were targeted by their siblings are at higher risk for being targeted by their peers. Higher risk for alcohol and drug abuse for self harm activities and depression in the later teen years.

Um, and it's easy to see why, but we dismiss it. So you saw the fighting scene. But this is different. The 10 year old has the five year old's arm up his back. We're not talking to yoga. Pose the kids in six big screaming. You rush in there and as soon as your oldest sees you she drops her brother's arm and starts comforting him. And we say, What are you screaming like that for? And the way your 10 year old looks at the five year old cause bullet has to do with intimidation. He knows right now. If he says anything in front of you when you leave, his sister's gonna whale on him heart. So he makes a choice.

He Oh, nothing, Mom. Nothing. And we said, Well, then quit screaming like that. We have just pre targeted the target, But step back a moment. When you walked in there, you saw something you wish you hadn't seen. You saw your daughter smirk before. She saw you as she had that arm of the back. She had the biggest smirk on her face. The smirk is an involuntary response when you're hurting someone and getting pleasure from their pain. And that's what bowling is about.

A conscious, willful, delivered activity intended to harm where you get pleasure from somebody else's pain. And that has to be stopped. Um,

what should that mother do?

Ah, that's the restorative practices. Restitution. You were hurting your brother. And you seem to be getting pleasure from that with that smirk on your face. So you need to own and fix it. Figure out how you're going to keep it from happening again, and he'll with him when he's ready for it. Um, I'll take it back a little bit here with somebody bopping a kid over the head with a toy and smiling and the same kind of thing. I own it. I grabbed my brother's arm and and, uh, her. Him. Uh, sometimes that's all the brother wants is affirmation that the kid owned that they really were doing something mean and cruel.

Fix it. Oh, how are you gonna fix it? Well, this is tough. One of the things you could do, and that's where your wisdom comes in again. What things you could do is go over into your room. It's on a time out at this point, but into your room on, Let your brother have the rest of the house and any toys in it for a period of time. Oh, but Mom, you need to do something. If you can come up with something better that gives him some peace and quiet, I'm open.

But otherwise you need thio to leave him be. It could be for an hour. I've been on a geno an hour, two hours on. He just has free roaming the house, and you can play in your room eyes that a punishment or consequence up. It's a consequence for what you did. You harmed your brother and you need it. And we can talk about time out later and the effectiveness of that. But it's another thing you might say is that, um, you need to sit in the third girl with the car. If there's 1/3 girl, I don't like that. They're grow. I get Oh,

that's a bummer. Maybe you'll think about not bopping your brother in the nose next time, but you come up with something that, uh, allows the other kid who's been harmed to have some peace and quiet. I also go up to the kid whose arm has been hurt, and I rub it. I said, That's awful. That must have really hurt. And you know when your sister goes to do that. So I wanted to, you know, let him know that I know he was hurt. But they also say to him, when you see your sister coming full jobs like this so she can get him.

Um, it's okay to get raise your voice and say Leave me alone. That hurts. It's okay to get attention. I want young people to know you get out of an elevator if you're uncomfortable and not worry about when it video says, See, all these tools help them become very capable adults as well. So all these air learning tools using this stuff of everyday life. So restitution resolution. How are you going to keep this from happening again? And this is where I like to take a moment with young people and teach them three things. I draw a circle with a line down and I say This is you. This is your brother. Now you control half of this. Yeah, but he wouldn't give me the toy.

Okay, you can ask him for the toy, but once it goes over that line, it's an invitation to him and he can accept it or reject it. But he has control on that side. You control half your brother controls him. Second lesson you influence 100% How you ask your brother for that Toy matters popping him over the head will radically reduce the chances of him being willing to share. Grabbing his arm and pulling it up reduces a chance that he's willing to cooperate with you at all. Um, and I try to use some humor in there with it as well, but I want them to understand that that didn't work. So you can influence that you can. And maybe you didn't think about this. But maybe you could offer him your favorite toy and you might see a grimace at that point or two of your second favorite toys and give her ways that that she can influence house response to that. Um And then the third lesson is no is a complete sentence. If your brother you've asked him nicely,

you offered to toys. If he says no, you have to go find something else to do. Now think about it. You teach seven and eight year olds you control half your brother controls half you influence 100% no is a complete sentence. How that will serve both boys and girls when they start dating. See, we're giving them in the process of all of this tools to handle both conflict and mean and cruel activities in their lives to empower them. I also want empower them and that's where Red pajama blue pajama comes in. And giving them choices and decisions is saying to them, You do have agency. When that little girl is left out, you can go over and sit with her. But mom, all the other girls will pick on me. Okay,

well, sometimes it's a cost, and maybe one of things you need to do is telling a don't bet of the other girls. But I don't want to. Snatch is not snitching. Those girls are hurting that other little girl. Um, it's telling. It's not tattling. It's reporting that ratting. If somebody's getting hurt, then you need to report it.

What's not first between titling and telling me

it's tabling is getting somebody in trouble telling is getting somebody out of trouble if that's ever both of bullying is, I need to know. For instance, you know those self appointed playground monitors. Mrs C. Mrs C. Johnny's on the Swing is not supposed to be on this wing. He didn't share yesterday. That's tattling. If it's okay for him to be on the swing he leaps off the swing, his coat gets caught. He's hanging on this swing. Tell me that's going to get him out of trouble. Now. If he's not supposed to be on the swing and he's hanging on this wing, it's both. I need to know five year olds.

Get that. I've had little ones come up. This is C Mrs C. I say an out or both, and sometimes they scrunch up their face and walk away and they go in trouble and they get it. I say, Thank you for figuring that out. Um and but I've also had him go up, Mrs C. Mrs C. I say invulnerable. They said, I don't know. I can't figure it out. I said, Well,

tell me we'll figure it out together. Or sometimes they come up and say, Mrs C, I say thank you for telling me that's going to get this kid out of trouble. Eso reinforcing at a very young age because we have this idea. Snitches get stitches and stuff, and so if it's mean and cruel Number one, we have to keep a target safe. Number two a witness safe number three, we deal with, um kid is doing the meaning. Cool activity, even if it means delay justice like the kid comes up and says to me, Those kids were calling me names. If I would go directly to those kids right there, they would retaliate against her and make it worse.

So then kids don't tell. But if I say to her, that was an ugly thing to happen to you. Let me give you some tools for handling that. But I also need you to know I'm not gonna deal with it right now because I need to keep you safe. But tell me, where is it happening and wins it happening? Because it often is continuous repeated over time. And we watched the kids like a hawk and we'll catch being mean and cruel. Uh, and then we nail on it. But I also want to give her ways to stand up when kids are being mean. I thank her for telling me that she's being her own witness. Now, if another kid comes up and says those boys were doing these mean things to this other boy, say thank you for telling me.

I know it took courage to tell and I promise you, nobody will know. You told me. And, uh, I say to him, I need you to know that I won't deal with this situation. But I'm a watch of Where's it happening when that happened? Now it's a donkey kid's head in the toilet and he's dripping a urine. I'd get with that right on the spot because the evidence is there and the smirks air on their faces. What

sort of tools would you give that girl to handle the name calling?

Being able to stay? Well, we have some lousy tools. I'll give you those first. Many anti bullying programs will say, Just tell them, Please stop. That hurts. That works. When you're dealing with a friend who inadvertently said something, it was the wrong time. Wrong place. It happens to all of us. It was the wrong time. Wrong place, wrong situation and the other kids face drops and gets years and arrives. And you So I'm sorry.

I'm sorry. What does the bully do when they know that they have hurt another child? They keep going. They get more of a you know, an aggressive when the other shows any hurt. It's a different street teasing and taunting teasing is laughing with taunting, is laughing at on. If they're taunting her, where the worst thing she could do is turn around. Say, please, stop That hurt is like Ray putting a red playing in front of a bull. Uh oh, good. We heard her see Ha ha. Um,

what? I and you don't wanna be aggressive? Well, it takes one to know one, because bullies are cowards. Um, but they're not ignorant. They picked on somebody they knew they could get. So I'm going to teach the young girl had a roller. Soldiers around it down and stand strong, not in a passive posture. Stand strong and in an assertive voice, be able to say that was mean. That was cruel. Not you're mean. You're cruel.

Called the deed, not the kid. That was mean. That was cruel. That was bigoted. That was racist. That was sexist. That was ugly. That was yuck! I tried to give him as many adjectives as possible so they couldn't choose for them. I don't need this. I'm out of here and getting themselves out of there for older kids and for adults. When they're in this situation, maybe even at a family gathering with worth an adult sibling targeting them. Still, you roll your shoulders around it down, stand strong, and you say that comment was beneath both of us.

Is that effectively labeling it?

Yeah, labeling the behavior, not the kid's room. And that comment was beneath. Both of us says, I'm not getting in the mud with you, and I'm inviting you to be bigger than you are right now, because I believe you can be. You know, that revenge is so quick, but that doesn't help. The Chinese said it so beautifully. Those who seek revenge had best dig two graves because they eat you up, too. So we want assertive lines not aggressive or passive. And, uh,

I've got to say our climate today of adult discourse doesn't help our kids at all. Um, with these beer Linda tax and dehumanization of another human being, which is what verbal bullying does. So we need thio, walk our talk and talk or walk. So I asked adults, How do you treat hired help? How do you treat of the new neighbor who looks different than you? Has a different faith tradition, different skin color, different languages, their first language. Your Children are watching. How do you treat that person moving through the grocery store slower than you'd like them to? And how do you deal with the bigoted relative?

But the family gathering now? We all have big relatives on the family tree. Ah, some just start on the branches yet they're right there at the dinner table, spewing bigoted comments thinly disguised as a joke. And we need to be able to say I'm bothered by that. Or that was beginning her that was racist when all the other relatives roll their eyes and say, What? Can't you take a joke about that time? And you know, you've had an impact when you walk back in the dining room and everybody shuts up. Ah, but you've had an impact, and you've had a greater impact on your Children. When your mother says it's Uncle George, he's old.

Hey, I'm 70. Um, old is never an excuse for bigotry and intolerance. Um, and I think your Children need to hear you saying to your mother in an uncomfortable situation, Mom, I don't want my Children to ever believe that it's okay to make those comments that are bigoted and racist or sexist, no matter how old we are. Now you do that. You stand up when it's uncomfortable to do it. The chances of your daughter sitting with the new girl or your son getting the other boys to stop has been greatly increased.

I want to go back to something you said about the brick wall family, the jellyfish family and the backbone family. Can you expand on those?

Yes, Brick wall, my way or the highway? Um uses a lot of rides and threats, rewards and punishments, a za way of controlling the child. And it leaves Children with the inability to truly think for themselves. Or they will rebel. It's like and they use punishment a lot. And when you punish a child, they basically rebel. Uh, they buy back, they flee or they turn inside themselves because they were phrase. Um

uh, What's the difference between punishment in consequence again?

And this one that is, understand discipline. Yes, discipline has consequences. Punishment may too, but I always say we need to use the French term R S V. P. Ripon DC boo play, which means please respond. Discipline is not something we do to a child. It's something we do with the child. Punishments adult oriented is imposed from without. It arouses resentment and teaches kids to respond at a fear or five backer flee discipline. On the other hand, if you go back to its Latin roots means to give life to a child's learning, So consequences need to be R S v p. Reasonable,

simple, valuable and practical. But let's look at discipline again. If it's a mistake, own it, fix it, learn from it. Move on. If it's not mischief on, this is where consequences you say. But why do we need discipline when it's a mistake? Because discipline is giving life to a child's learning, whether it's at 16 year old with the beaker or the three year old with the glass giving life to their learning. So discipline is an integral part of what we do with our kids. Um, uh,

the let me give you an example of you used my son again when it's mischief. This is where consequences come in. Um, our son did something. It wasn't on the proof behavior list on a field trip. He broke the beaver bait jar at the Natural History Museum. Could have been worse. Could have been an irreplaceable dinosaur. Like we're very lucky. Very replaceable. Beaver bait are He was not punished. He was not paddled. Uh, we just punishment. He wasn't sent to the principal's office, which could have been punishment,

depending on how the principal handled it. He didn't have to write 550 times. I will not break a beaver bait jar, which is punishment. And it didn't get banned from the next field trip. Which, by the way, sad to say, is a special ed teacher that happens in wrongful optic kids with special needs. And then they never learned to go on a field trip. But those were all punishment. He didn't have any of that. Instead, his teacher wisely said, Joe, you have a serious problem here.

I know you can handle it. He had to write a letter to the Natural History Museum. He had to replace the Beaver bait jar, which was a trip unto itself. For those of you who are listing who don't know, beaver bait is female beaver urine. He will never break another beaver bait jar. And before you go on the next field trip. There were conditions. Yeah, they have all that done and have in writing how he would handle his feet, hands and mouth creatively and constructively. On the next field trip, he was shown what he done wrong, given ownership of the problem given wasting the solvent left his dignity intact. Did he have fun?

Yes. And this really calls people who are brick wall and into punishment. How? Derek, You'd have a good time fixing a messy made. I have worked with administrators who have truly disciplined the child. But since they're not hanging by our toenails at noon, in public display and in pain, somebody will say you didn't do anything to him. No, I'm not doing something to them. That's punishment. I'm doing something with them. Yes, he had fun. The Saturday morning got up early,

got his little knapsack ready, and then the game warden very patiently explained to Joe how he had to collect female beaver or you're in his ice got huge. He looked at me. He looked at his dad, was now smiling and he said to the game word, I have to do that. I thought the game wardens. Comment was classic, he said. Well, I didn't break the beaver bait yard and just was Joseph. Senior Problem was held at the Natural History Museum. What a fitting into his public education. But in that experience, he was truly disciplined. Shown what he done wrong,

given ownership of the problem, giving ways to solve it left his dignity intact. Um, and that's what we need to do with discipline, Whether it's a mistake, it's mischief for mayhem and always with mayhem. You go to those three R's in discipline

and through that is that how we teach Children how to make better decisions and own the outcomes of those decisions?

Well, it holds him accountable for what they've done. It teaches them that they do matter what they do matters and how they fix it matters, and it gives them the opportunity to fix it. And he'll, uh, with people if they've harmed any of them. Hey, got along quite well with the game where you went out and did other adventures with them, you know, and helped out

one of the other things as parents that we can do to help our kids learn to make eight appropriate decisions and prepare them for the world where they have to make their own decisions.

It's looking around every situation saying, Is this a choice he can make? And we have to give up some of this, uh, efficiency control. Well, we've got to get it done right now. Sometimes I just sit back and it's gonna take a little bit longer for him to fix his own lunch with us, helping him fix it. But pretty soon he's gonna be able to fix his own lunch on his home, which is our goal. Um, you know when you're gonna have mistakes. I remember my oldest daughter doing the laundry because she was old enough to learn to do it, and she put all the whites in and put bleach in. However, her brother had taken off his red shirt with his T shirt at the same time,

so it was white on the outside. Inside was a red T shirt. Everything turned pink, including her dad's. I know everything and there's so dawns on nervous paint Chin and um, I said, well, when things we could do is put it through the wash again without the venture But you got the picture brother's shirt. And now she could have blamed it on him and said, Have you had to put it in the laundry with separate? No, you know, Hey, you did it. You did it. And,

um, I quite frankly, I helped her out with buying him a new shirt, but, uh, because it was a mistake, it was an honest mistake. So I helped her out, but she went to her. Dan said, Dad, you have pink underwear. He said, Well, it would be different, have different colors,

but it's It's we look at it. Okay. It was a mistake. Um, had she put a whole load of of blue and red closed in and purposely because they were her brothers and purposely put bleach in it, she would have a bigger problem. That would have been a medicine thing that would have been made him, except intent matters. She so. But what I want to do is make it simple for parents Not complicated, but understand that simple doesn't mean easy. And along with that, I can't impress upon you how important it is to try to steer away from all the bribes and threats, rewards and punishments. They interfere with ethical behavior. And Alfie Kohn said that bribes and threats of the flip side of the same coin,

they don't buy us much. I'd like to go one step further. I think they bankrupt the spirit of our Children because now we have kids saying, Well, what's in it for me? And we'll never break the cycle of violence related to bullying. If everything's in, what's in it for me? Because it cost you to stand up, to speak out. So it trying to put it all together and using simple things that we can do every day, whether it's dealing with conflict or sibling bullying. None of us like to think our kids are bowling, but we have to look at it. If it is, that's marks on that face. We need to shut that down love and help the targeted kid be able to stand up and be strong.

What tools would you give parents tryingto put their kids to bed? If if there's no sort of like threats or punishments and you know you have, let's say an 8 to 10 year old, they don't want to go to bed or they refuse to

go to sleep. Or are you? By the time they were that old, you've already gotten into a routine. Routines are critical, and I don't mean brick wall routine where it's eight o'clock and you're going to bat no matter what. Um, bet on it doesn't have to be a nightmare. And I wrote about that, and kids were worth a whole chapter. It doesn't have to be when they're little, Um, my husband and I would take turns putting. I had three kids and three and 1/2 years, and so we would take time time putting them down. The littlest one went to bed the latest.

You know, it's a busy house

was loading, nursing them and stuff. But one of us would do the dishes and the other would put the kids down. One of us would get a break. We're not sure which one. On some nights, Um, but it's a matter of I stayed with him and and just would hum or we'd have a little rude routine. Often it's, you know, being grateful for what has happened during the day and that reading a story and having a calmness about the bedtime. Also, if you have a child who has a learning disability, I'm a special ed teacher. If you rub the bottom of their feet, the Chinese know well. The eyes are the windows sold with the feet of the doorway to nobody.

And you confirm Lee rub the bottom of their feet. It does two things when it comes from down and two, they can't get out of bed when you're hanging on to their feet, Um, and then you you could rub their backs and make bedtime a pleasant time. Instead, what we tend to do is get it. First of all, we asked him, Did you brush your teeth? Just silly. That's a silly question. You know, kids could be all over his face to do eat that cookie. If they need to brush their teeth, so do you.

And so when they're little, you gotta brush your teeth. They're rushing. There's we're sure we get it all done. Good. Um, I just had my was with one of our grandkids, a seven year old in. He's into rules right now because seven year olds are and I was brushing my teeth. I finished before him he said, Grandma, you didn't do it the whole time. It

What did you say to

that was not done yet. So you know, you do with him. Have you really want him? And then pretty soon, they'll be able to take it over themselves and care for their teeth. And the dentist will have talked to them about teeth rotting out of your head, that kind of stuff. So you teach you teach them, and your model it for you. Make bedtime a pleasant time instead of get back into bed. Get back in the bed, get back in the bed How many times I have to get back into bed and you start screaming. And then they finally fall asleep and you feel like the bad witch from the West, because now they're asleep in your office. You've been screaming at the U. S.

O u T. I guarantee you they will want you to put them in bed at 17. I guarantee you, that s o if you take that time when they're young and give them in the habit. Now, the seven year old occasionally likes to still be tucked in. But the 10 year old in the nine year old My grandkids, I beg you about, uh, will will have want to say good night to you and they read and reading. No, not on tools, not on the Elektronik tools of a real book. There's a reason for that. The blue like, um,

from the electronic tools are not good. We're helping put them to see if they also come powerful to their eyes. So reading a real book? Well, often the times. Uh,

no. They lead to read that until they fall asleep. Or is there Ah, like a bedtime?

Yes, Well, you have a bad time, but it's a time to get ready to go to bed and and, you know, within 1/2 hour they're they're out and you haven't screamed. You haven't yelled. You check in on them, you turn the light out because the book is on their face and, you know, making it a pleasant time now for some kids, especially kids who may have some learning disabilities or some body issues. The massage that talking to them My my graduate work was an autism, and with now it was, ah, a friction oil. But rub firmly to come if you don't want the tickle tickle because they can't handle that. But the firm massaging of them and helping them relax instead of it becoming a battle because you're both those were now

do all these techniques work with autistic kids as well as a D, H D kids and regular kids or their different ways to apply them?

Mother work, It's and kids were worth It was originally written for kids with special needs. And then I was asked to write the book, and what I found was, uh, with kids with special needs in that backbone that gives you flexibility. You don't get from a rigid brick wall, but it also gives you structure you don't get from a jellyfish model, and we need his parents and educators to have both flexibility and an environment that's conducive to creative, constructive and responsible activity. With kids with special needs, we often have to have ah, smaller distance between the vertebrates and a whole lot more vertebrae. So we break it in two steps, um, and know that there are moments with kids with special needs when they would be horribly frustrated and and you're worn out. Um and making sure that we get a break is parents and little respite, but also to understand that your kid is struggling at school and that's a lot of struggle for them. Ah, and you want to be very tuned in If a kid says the kids are calling me names and bullying can be devastating,

should have apparent respond to that when their kid comes home and says that or hints of the fact that they might be getting bullied at school.

I stop everything I'm doing and sit down as they talk to me about it. Tell me about a very soft voice. Talk to me about it. Tell me about it and I listen, I say, What can you and I do owe debt? Mom, don't tell anybody. Don't tell Mei. They'll make it worse. Kids tend to know that if schools aren't handling it well, it will make it worse and that. But there are things that we need to know. I'm an educator. If somebody bullying tends to happen under the radar adult. So if apparently come to me and say that my son said the boys are calling names in the bathroom that I changed the bathroom schedule. I make sure there's one at a time kind of thing.

And then I keep an eye on those boys. And I say that the parent, I'm gonna keep an eye on those boys. I thanks for the young away for telling, and I also saved him. Nobody's ever gonna know you told. And nobody I tell a parent I was gonna know. You told I'm gonna watch them, which means I can do with it what they did in the past. But I tell you that the snow of the playground aid the lunch room, we're gonna be on our toes watching for that. And once we're tuned into that, we usually can catch him doing it with Canelo. And I do. I you know, normal conflict.

We're gonna have lots of that, and you just get through it and help them get through it. But bullying is our job to stop and, uh, deal with it both for the targeted person and the bully and the not so innocents bystanders who joined in

in your book. Kids were worth that. You talk about the difference between doing good and feeling good. Can you elaborate on that for everybody listening. And what does that mean? How does it change? How you parent,

um, I want to teach young kids to do gooders James Hatchway say, because good is good to do that. You do it because it's the right thing to do. Hey, he goes on to say, Sperm, threats of heaven and bribes the hell you do it because it's right thing to do. Which brings this fact of brides and threats, rewards and punishments and looking at the alternatives to those, um, what to do instead? Ah, feeling good about yourself. It's about yourself when kids understand they have agency in their life. When they sit next to the new girl, no one can take away how good they feel knowing what they did for that other little girl.

No one can take that away. Uh, but if you bribe kids, then it's an external approval that will help them feel good night. Don't want external approval. So let's look for a moment at what to do instead of bribes and threats of rewards and punishments because they're in city is part of our culture, you know, it's again if I don't get caught Where they did wasn't bad. If I have to be caught being good and remember, nice kids often get caught being good in the classroom. But they're not been kind to the new girl or to the child with special needs of the child with an allergy. I'm not in tonight's I'm in the kind on kind often happens. I will walk up to a child. I say. I want to thank you providing that new girl to sit with you, um,

a CZ. She feels a part of the class now, so that's part of the alternative. So let's look at what the alternatives are. Instead of bribes and threats, rewards and punishments, what kids need our encouragement, feedback, a sense of deep caring and discipline. We've already done the discipline so we can look at the others. Encouragement. Praise can only occur the end of a deed done the way you want it done. It's highly judgmental. Encouragement can occur any time a kid falls flat on his face. How do you praise on Ufl? Well,

no, you you save him, my buddy, Pick yourself up. I know you can do it. My six critical life messages I believe in you. I trust in you. I know you can handle it. You listen to your care for your very important to me. Children near the Hey need to hear that in lots of different ways. And one of them, Mrs Aikman, Buddy, pick yourself up. You can do it. Encouraging Children.

They also need feedback. Now feedback comes in three C's compliments, comments and constructive criticism. Compliment. Best compliment you give any child is an educator or apparent is thank you. Thank you for walking the dog. He's been inside all day. Look how happy he is to be outside. Thank you for watering that plant. It was really wilted. And now it's standing strong. Thank you for inviting that new boy toe lunch so he feels like as a new kid, he fits in already. Now notice I did that. You stroke the deed, not the kid.

Be very specific to the deed and let the child know what his or her behavior did for the dog, a plant or another human being. Um And you said. But can I ever get excited? Oh, sure, the three year old one should away bye bye to the bound with Mitt. You wait Bye bye to the bounds. Five year old makes it down the hill without the training wheels touching. You did it. Um, you see how different that is? And if you make it down, the hill will go to Dairy Queen and he doesn't make it down the hill. Feel like to you? You'll throw the bike down and say,

I don't care about any stupid dairy queen. Um, But you say you did it or you didn't come out. Pick yourself up. You can try it again and you go back to that encouragement. Um, and your 16 year old makes it around the parking lot without poppin the clutch. You did that. You know it's okay to get excited, but it's about your child's excitement. Praise dependent. Kids can't get excited too. You give him permission. Do you like this? Is this okay? Bulla.

Um so we want to stroke the deed. Not that could be very specific to the dean. I love the child. Know what impact? They had the firm's air agency again. Um, the second c is comments. Good, solid instruction. We have to teach our kids. Have ads attract guy Graham. A satin settle date may way have to teach him how to be kind and caring. We have to teach them those things. We have to teach him to have a health regard for themselves, including their own sexuality in a healthy regard for others, including their sexuality.

Teach him to be cyber savvy, cyber, civil and cyber safe. We never had to do that a generation ago, but today we do have to do that, Um, and those air things that as parents, we need to teach our young people. So that's in the instruction. In the comments section, The Last C is constructive criticism which were so afraid to give kids an appraiser oriented culture. Um, we're afraid to disappoint them. I don't use a red pan it school. Use a green one, and I check all the answers that are correct.

And I say to a kid, your job is to fix all the other one so they get a green mark, too. That, says the kid, I believe you can do it. I don't say to a kid that's wrong. I usually say that's not right because it's bigger than right. Wrong. One of my books is just because it's not wrong doesn't make it right. And it's teaching kids to think and act ethically and ended. I talk about the fact that two kids making up a game only to complain because they don't want the new girl to play with them because she played with the other girl yesterday. Now there's nothing wrong with making up a game, only to complain. But it's not right. If your intent is to exclude somebody,

so your intent matters. So I say That's not right and I invite them to fix. It s so it is bigger than my mom. So we want them to have constructive criticism. I say you can fix it. I know you can fix it, but how we treat an A plus will give our kids a clue. If they can come home and tell you they wrecked the family car, they've been targeted at school or they worse than that. We're we're targeting somebody. You see, we need our Children. Be able to tell us about the good, the bad and the ugly. Now, price dependent kids are afraid to tell you they're afraid to take a risk.

They're afraid they won't take advanced Trig because they might get a lower grade. Um, and I like good risk takers. I wanted to be able to take a risk of sitting next to the new girl and the like, So, um, your talk himself into an ape. Luscious. I'm so proud of you. Take after my side of the family. We're gonna put this up on the refrigerator for the other side to look at. You do that very often. You're gonna go to back to school night, pick up every child's desk and find, um, every paper in there that's not an A plus because they're afraid to bring it home,

he said. But what am I gonna say? Like it comes home. I've already given you the comment. In another situation. All I ever say to my kids has talked to me about it. Tell me about it, Uh, and it opens it up for them to talk instead of me talking about it. Um, and so I say, Talk to me about it. And the the girl who spelling comes easy. Say, says Spellings, Easy.

I don't get excited about that. But the other child we're spelling comes hard for them. They say, Look, Mom, I got all the words right. Even spoke February right in the R's and the funny place. I get excited about their excitement, but the child who got the A plus because spelling comes easy for them. I say You have a phenomenal gift. We have to find a way for you to use that gift. And at home I would say something like, We've been going over to the senior center and you're old enough to come with us. Um, and with your spelling gifts, you can answer their e mails.

You can write thank you notes for them. You can write letters for them. I want young people to know that if you have a gift, you have an obligation to use that gift instead of I'm so proud of you for that gift, Um, and then they will be less likely to take risk. If it's they're afraid they're going to get disapproval from you a school. I would say, You know, you have a phenomenal gift, and we have a young child in class who has a difficult time reading out loud and spelling and not but and She's a phenomenal storyteller, which, by the way, is true of many kids with dyslexia. One of things you can do is you can, uh,

right out the story She did takes 20 we have an artist in the class. You can illustrate your story. We have a musician. You could score her story. We have to class clowns. You can act out the story. What I just did didn't cost the diamond didn't interfere with stand bys. Testing is I just created a larger circle of caring, which goes a long way to breaking the cycle of violence. The chances of kids mocking the younger with this Lexie, I have been radically reduced because they have seen that she has a gift. I take a child with learning disability and let that be the first to climb the rock wall. Why? They often are willing to take those risks. And the kids at the very top of the other kids going Wow, instead of how he takes a dhd medicine,

he has to go down the yuck. No. Wow. Look what you could do. I take kids or impulsive, get him in Red Cross programs s O. That first aid classes so they can learn to fix the notably they get. Gave somebody. I tried to get them tow, learn to swim. Really? Well, I want our kids to know how to swim. Being a former water safety instructor, I want them to swim well so they don't drown. But kids were impulsive.

Make phenomenal. I mean, this very serious and phenomenal lifeguards. They make wonderful e m t s and paramedics lousy brain surgeons. But I don't need a brain surgeon in the back of an ambulance. I need somebody who uses their impulse quickly, and they've got that trained. So it's a mindset that we have to have about what are the gifts these kids have? And I want them to say, you know, talk to me about getting enough. Okay? Talk to me. Oh, you ran the car into a posted school. Talk to me about it.

Net and show me how you gonna fix it. It was a mistake. You know how to take their own it. Fix it, learn from it. Move on. Um, now, if they were drinking and they had an accident, they got mayhem on your hands. And that's a much bigger issue, so but you see how it fits in that structure of the backbone.

I like that a lot. I find so often this school's air focused on what the Children can't do. Ah, and it's usually geared towards some curriculum. Or they don't fit inside this ever narrowing sort of box instead of what they can do and taking advantage of maybe special gifts or different ways of viewing the same problem.

Well, I tried to change that as an educator regular. Pay it when I'm lecturing and working with schools when a kid walked through those doors. I've been doing a lot of opening of schools. It's the beginning of the school year, and I say, I don't care where a kid comes from. Dad's an alcoholic mother has an interesting occupation. Brother's money, jail, any kid walking through those doors. It's a kid, and they need those six critical life messages. I believe in you. I trusted you. I know you can handle this. Your listen to care for very important to May.

I thought that's creating psychological safety for the Children. I mean, that's the exact same thing we do for adults to create an environment of safety.

Well, we may, Indeed. I have people say to me when I was working with seriously troubled adolescents, but they're going to go home to the same environment. They're going home, the same streets as I have a plan and 1/2 hours a day. I can only do all they can do. But I got to do the best I can do with them because is truly a safe harbor. Alice Miller. This psychiatrist, um, did a study of kids who have been horribly abused and found that those who did fry had one person in their life. They cared about them, and very often it was uneducated. So we can make a difference in their lives. We have to believe

that. No, totally. I mean, I had one teacher make all the difference for me, and it was great. 10. It was the only teacher, uh, who ever believed in me. And it just changed everything.

It does change everything it does. Carl Up, Jerk wrote. Convicted in the womb, he spent ah ah, good portion of his junior high and high school years in prison juvenile detention and then went on to prison and an English teacher in the prison, said, You're a good writer and he went out and wrote, and he also got the Crips and the Bloods to put down their colors in Kansas City and went on to be a phenomenal advocate and writer. But it was that one teacher that said I believe in you.

Yeah, I totally agree with that. Mr. Duncan, if you're listening, Thank you so much. I want to talk your big proponent of real world consequences. I want to understand what real world consequences air and I want to understand when parents or teachers should intervene and when they shouldn't.

It's not like threatening Morley threatening or unhealthy. Let it go, let them experience the consequences. But you don't say to a 16 year old, go ahead and jump off the building. We'll discuss the consequences After you land, you pull them back in the second chance at life. But the rest of the time I give them the opportunity to make those choices and decisions. Does that mean I don't give them wisdom? No. My own wisdom were there for a recent, you know, as adults, we're not just kind of hang and with them, and we're certainly not

their friends to give them recommendations.

He Oh, I do. And I would say to someone, You know, I know you love that combination. How do you think I tried to get him to quit? How do you think some of your peers may respond to that when you walk through the door? And if he says I don't care what they think and says it very strongly, I said, Go for it. You're your own person. Um er, but if they say I don't know, uh, what do you think, Mom, I don't live that well in my day.

This is what might happen, you know, going back to me because I'm ill. I only know from my own experience and as experiences an educator. I know these things I also can talk to them about. If you said that to somebody and set it in that way, how do you think they might respond? It's a matter of teaching. I was driving one day with my oldest granddaughter and my daughter and my oldest granddaughter asked something, and I went off into my teaching mode, and my daughter said, You're always teaching, aren't you? Yep. You know, because it was a teachable moment, and I think you take those teachable moments. Um,

take them and get them. You?

Yes. And and you give it to them. You know, And I I believe I'm a good teacher, and I think that I am some knowledge to impart. And I want my my grandkids. I want Children in the neighborhood to be able to experience that, Um, and that's why I lectured the teacher is hopefully bacon. Take some of the wisdom that I have on dhe make it a part of their own school. Um, I want to go back a moment here because I said, you know, they needed the three C's, but they also need deep caring, which is something you just alluded to. Deep caring is not liking somebody.

I tow kid. You do not have to like every kid, Miss Crasher. But you must honor their humanity. Dick. Caring is the must to relieve somebody else's suffering and wishing them well, which, by the way, is the antithesis of mean and cruel. Um, so if you care deeply about another human being, you want to be in there to help relieve any suffering they have and wish them well. And that's what we as educators, uh, we need to be mindful with the wise heart. Um,

and, uh, if we're so locked into rules, I have very few rules and many more guidelines. Rules are we expect kids make a guidelines on how we hope the breaking, but a rule. It is important, but it must be rooted in deep caring that I'm gonna go back to Brick Wall with that, You know, there was a situation outside of Atlanta, Georgia, a few years ago where they had a rule about cell phone use. It was a good rule about cell phone use. However. 30% of those kids had one or both parents deployed in Iraq or Afghanistan, and a great 11 boy made international news.

His phone vibrates in the lunch room. It's his mom from Iraq. She doesn't get to call. Very often. He goes into the Commons area, uh, and forbid her cellphone reception and a moral absolute rigid brick wall. Teacher came by and said, Turn that phone off and give it to me, he said. But it's my mom from Iraq and how telling moral absolutism is, she said. I don't care. She took the phone. He got belligerent. He was just suspended five days for using his phone.

Five days for getting belligerent. Now the board back that teacher because they said, if we let him use the phone that everyone will use the phone. See moral. Absolute rigid brick walls are so afraid of moral relativism, jellyfish. But they even got that wrong. It isn't moral relativism. Jellyfish isn't. Everyone will use the phone but who you are, who you're related to. Weapons it in your parents cellar in the community And who caught you. That's the jellyfish.

Also reinforcing, not thinking right, like you just followed blindly following some sort of rules or procedures and you're not exercising any sort of judgment. I mean, you might as well work.

Yeah, that's what zero tolerance is all about it. Zero thinking. So what would a deeply carrying teacher do? Who's the rule is a rule. It's a good role, but there's a time to bend to go above the rule, not because the rule isn't a good rule. So you see the child with this stuff on use a cell phone and he looks at you said. But it's my mom from Iraq and a deeply caring teacher who's ethic is rooted in deep caring and rules are rigid and get caring. Says, I'll talk to you when you're finished and hangs around. And then when he's done with the phone call, say, How's your mom doing? And how are you and Grandma doing? It's been a long deployment for all three of you.

Is there anything I can do to help that says I care and that you know the rules there? But there's a time to bend. Another kid comes up. This is how come he gets used to someone, and I don't know. I say, when your mom's in Iraq, you get to use your cell phone, too. You have a child with cancer, needs to wear a hat, but you have a hat roll. There's a time to bend is like two yellow lines down the road. That's a rule, not a guideline on, and I we have to trust the highway department.

Rules are about trust. I have to trust you, say, on your side road you have to trust I say on my side of the road, however, an ambulance comes down the middle of the road. They have not violated that rule. They superseded the rule. It's still a good rule, but there's a time to supersede that girl to get to the place so that you could be deeply caring. You know, the months, really somebody else's suffering. Wishing them well, Go

ahead. Do you think people follow those rules because they're trying to avoid punishment or trying to avoid being wrong if they exercise their judgment?

Well, I asked people, when I'm talking about this in the the lectures, I say If any of you have a radar detector, I don't want you to raise your hand Well, if your child in the car with you, what you have just said to them is speeding is not bad, its getting caught, that's bad. And some people go a little on my own a little bit, but it's about getting caught. Um, we don't know, just like to get caught. That must like to pit. But if that's the only reason we're not speeding, then we have a problem and you know rules are there for a reason.

There's only when I say, Develop your school rose. Your classroom rules. Your general area rules. The basis of those rules has to be deep caring. And it's a matter again of it doesn't have to do a safety or the way we relate to other human beings. If you have a rule that doesn't have those two things one of those two things in common than I challenged, the whole you have

what were what were your family rules?

Uh, my own? Well, my school rules by classroom rules. Risi show up on time. Be prepared to your assignments. Respect your own another's life space. Very simple. A lot of guidelines where you said how you ask for things guidelines. But rules are how we expected. Behave gun. That's our only hope. Nobody. Hey ah, in our own home, it was be kind and caring. Help out with chores um,

that you're a responsible member of this family. We're counting on you to do chores. Ah, and treating one another kindly, I think, was the biggest thing.

Can you walk me through what would be a JJ appropriate chores for, say, 6 to 88 to 10 10 to 12 told of 14 14 to 16.

Well, remember, our goal is to constantly increase responsibilities, decision making and reduce limits and boundaries. So you don't let us two year old play with a gas stove. Ah, but you let them help put Peter butter on the celery and put the little raisins on top for ants on a log. You know that kind of thing. It's again, age appropriate, and I would impress upon your ability appropriate. You may have a child with special needs who's the oldest, but the second oldest is more capable of getting more responsibilities and decision making. They ought to be allowed to do that, not because I'm worried that the other kid will feel bad. No, we we honor each one's differences and seek out one another's gifts as well.

Um, it was interesting to me. I had a niece who's a doctor say that she was talking to some of the her patients and some of them who came from the world countries. Those Children were more likely to do Maur chores and be more helpful around the family because it was expected now that even they live in a first world country, then our Children's we take a serious look at If our goal is for them to be independent, what shores are we willing to take the time to teach him to do and hold them accountable for So, you know, I couldn't give you exactly. All I know is your goal is when they leave home, they know how to do the laundry. They know how to mow a lawn. They know how to wash windows. They know how to keep a house in order. They know how to shop. So and some of you listening may say I got a 15 year old. We've lost it.

Weird. What do we do now? We've done it all wrong. No, you have it. It's never too late. You can say, kid, you got a job to do and I've got a job to do. And that's to get you ready to go outside on your own at 18. So we got some catching up to do, and we can do it. It's again. Then affirmation. We can do this. We can do this.

What responsibility decisions do you think you're capable of doing now? And what, uh, limits and boundaries? Do you think we can take away and you're open. And when they realize that you mean it, they won't give you some far out things like, I think I can stay out all night at 15. Well, now, not really should. But you're open. Let's see what limits we can put in. How about curfew? You know, some people have that ridge of brick wall curfew.

Jellyfish is all. Well, my kid will come home whenever but a backbone says, ah, half hour after the mental, or an hour after events over because an event may end at 10. But you say curfew at 12. Will they control to write that, you know, an hour after the men's over. And you that means your chalk and still say, Mom, the other boy had something to drink. I'm driving in home. Thank you for telling me.

My parents always had this rule, which I think might not even need anymore because of the likes of uber and stuff. But their rule was you can call me anytime, anywhere, no questions asked, and we'll come get

you. That's still a very good rule. That's still a very good girl because it's not always about drinking It's not always about an uber. Sometimes it's about there in an uncomfortable situation. They want out. So you have a code that they can give you text message or something that says, Please come get me. Oh, my Mom needs me home right now, Don and I gotta baby sit my brother, you know, because they're uncomfortable. You get to be the fuddy duddy. It's like three alternatives to know You know how often we say No, the kid's mom. Can I have a cookie? No deals for your supper.

Dad, Can I go to Jamie is No. Ah, Mom, Can I have the car keys? No, Dad, can I stay out all night? Know we say no so often that they don't take us seriously on that big one. Well, there's three alternatives to know you start today, so when you need to say no, you say it and mean it and follow through with it. Mom can have a cookie. Yes, later.

And how do you find it? No. Yes, later, the five year old says. But I'm hungry. Okay, have a cookie. It's already later. It's at least three seconds later. But most importantly, you didn't change a note away? Yes, It was a yes all along. Um, the second dad,

Can I go over to Jamie's house? Give me a minute. There's nothing wrong with asking for a moment to develop your own case. You might think g and become and I say, having many here. Yeah, you go or wait a minute. We have this and this. And this too. Do you know you can't go at least when you say no? You know why you said no? How often we say no, We have the foggiest cause it sounded good. You know why I did? What did I say? That I don't know.

So yes, later. Give me a minute. The third I often use with that lessons. But you really can use it if anyone. That's horrible day. Mom, Can I have her car keys? Convince me. Why should I spend all my energy at my age? Convincing my adolescent you can let her spend all their useful energy. Convince me why she should, um about mom. Oh, my friends, I'm not convinced.

Mom, You let Maria I'm not convinced. Mom, if you don't give me the car keys, you're gonna take all of us to play practice. I'm convinced. And then when you're 16 year old says, Can I stay out all night? A good line is No. There is a time and a place for no. And they're going to say, how come and our typical responses cause I said so, which is not a wise reason at all. Um, they're gonna go out the back window after you lock the front door. They still don't know why.

Tell them why. Kid, you can't stay all night because of sex, jail, drugs, personal safety. What? Don't Because the other night, because of sexual drugs and personal safety. Mom, you don't trust me? Oh, yeah, I do. I trust you from the moment you walk out of this house in the morning to you come back in the evening. It takes less than 10 minutes to get involved in sex jailer drugs.

And I just trust your No, but after midnight, this community there's a whole lot less to do with sex. Gellar does. And I just don't want to put you in a position. You can't get a handle. Oh, but Mom, everybody staying out. Not true. You're not. You don't love me. I do. I'm not gonna argue, but I do. They're not gonna be real happy,

many of our kids. So we'll be relieved, because now they can say, Mom won't let me And you get to be the fuddy duddy. Well, they're still developing that strong backbone of their own.

I like that. A perch a lot where you can take the blame for the kids. My mama let me and my dad won't let me. And then that gives them an out A way to save face. Yeah. Yeah. Without them having to stand up and say I don't want to do drugs, which is really a hard position to put them in.

Yes. And also now that they all have their phones, a text, a code run that they can text to you, that means please come get me or I'm scared or I'm worried. And you'd be right there. And you can even walk into that party and just say, John, you didn't get something that you need to come home right now and they'll think Whoa, Is she from? And I We took in one before we had our own Children. Kids who were troubled and lessons. And one of them was on on the verge of being sent back to Juvie Hall If he messed up one more time. And I said, You can always blame it on me. I'll back you up. And this was new for him,

and he came running in the house. The hand of his buddies had tell me No, tell me Know. And I had no idea what I was telling him know about, But he said, Tell me, No, Tell me knowing. So is But it Come on in. And, Mom, all the foster kids called me a month and a mom. Mom, can I go there? I said no. Oh,

come on. Well, you can never mind you. I have no anyone but no. And I got even firmer. No, you absolutely ask me one more time. It's gonna be a bigger note. No, she won't let me. And then after they left, I said, Explain this to me. Well, they were going to go do something he knew he would get in serious trouble for But he had. We had an agreement that if he needs when you say no, I'll say it

How long did take the foster kids to integrate into the family?

Why didn't have kids then? We took in the kids before we had kids. Uh, we took in young offenders that while they were being adjudicated or leaving one foster care to another. My husband was a psych rehab counselor. I was a special ed teacher. Some of these kids were my suit. So some of them that boy in particular had me Morning. Noon, right. What

a phenomenal place to land.

Oh, we loved it. And, you know, I told my own kids We've handled kids who have seriously our mothers and hurt themselves. So you're gonna have to work hard at shocking us. They also here, by the way, in the teen years, they work hard. Uh, but again, you go back to It's not life threatening Morley threatening or unhealthy. Let it go. The purple hair will grow out.

Nobody likes admitting they're wrong. How should parents admit that they made a mistake to their kids? They reacted the discipline or punished

too much, or Yeah, I blew it. Um, you know, we are We all lose it. You know, we were yelling. Scream How dare show you. You're grounded for six months. I mean, why would you? Can't want to get on physics. But But we If you've ever done that, you can always pull back, just like me. Teach kids.

We're gonna waste pull back and say, I lost it. Give me a few moments to come up with something that makes sense. And I will know you're not grounded for life. Um, I had a friend grounder adolescent for six months, including senior prom, because she lost it. And, uh,

so often we way admitting you were wrong. You

didn't That didn't make sense. Go back. And you just say the kid I blew that one. Now, sometimes you have to say, I blew it. I'm going to go back outside. I'm gonna call myself down. I'm going to start over, which gives them a tool for how to do it too. And they see that we make mistakes and we're vulnerable. And what's hard is when your kids that you blew it. Um and I'm I had one. I was lecturing in Toronto and we were in an elevator and I had taken my son with me. Uh, that on that trip and he turned around. He was 13 and he looked at all the people they were talking about,

the lecture I just given and he said, Well, would you like to me for me to be good or bad So you can see how she handles it, you know, like, Oh, please. So, um, yeah, humor always helps if you blow it. Humor helps to know you're not grounded for life. Um, let me come up with something that makes sense. And by the way, I'm open to suggestions.

It's okay to ask a kid for some suggestions of what to do, and some kids will say Spank me and say, Well, that's off limits. I don't do that. Your story's mine dignity, and it will destroy yours, too. So let's come up with another option

and then told him to try again if it if it's not, uh, in line with what happened. Yeah. Yeah. One of the techniques used in the book that I thought it was particularly interesting and I tried it on my kids last night. It was the sit. Can you explain that and went to use

it if you hit your set? Yeah, Yeah. If you hit, you sit. Okay, Let's look a time out because that I'm often asked about that. There's time in. There's time out and some people have an interesting time out. I had apparent one of my workshop. Say, I have a wonderful time out program. It works. Our sun hits his sister. He goes and sits. I don't even have to tell him anymore. I go.

Oh, that's I'm working. You still leave something wrong there? Yeah. So do I believe in time? Not that kind. But I do believe in time out. When a trial buffs another kid over the head, I say, Whoa, it's all right to be angry. It's not all right to get your brother. I want to separate those two. It is all right to be. It's all right to your brother. You need to take time out to calm down and figure out how you're gonna fix what you just did.

The purpose of time out is to calm down and to figure out how you're gonna fix what you just did. That's the purpose of it. So many time outs. It's obligatory time out in the obligatory. I'm sorry and that's the little boy will hit a sister and go sit in and come up and say I'm sorry and not mean it, you know, and still hit his sister. Um, but also give him options. I say you can sit in your rocker room or on my lap. Now, people in behavior Mod said, Well, I'm not gonna let him sit on my lap. I've been trained in babe your mind with rats. I'm not going to use the nine kids.

Ah, and so, uh, sometimes a very out of control child needs a very in control adult and just rocking that may help soothe them. The goal is to calm them down. Then they have to deal with what they did. So I give him a choice. Rocker room around my lap knows that, given three choices, you give a strong willed child too. They'll try to figure out which one they you want them to do on the truth, the other just despite you. But you give him three. They're confused. So, uh,

rocker room on my lap when they're done calming down. Now the work begins. Um, And mom, I'm ready. Okay. If he says I'm done being mad, They're still linger, So? Well, not yet. You want to go for a walk? Maybe sitting isn't what calms him down. You gotta know your kid. Um but he's getting attention for you. He's calming down now.

He still has got to do the work. In said three R's, he hit his brother. Restitution. You have to own and fix what you did. I hit my brother with the toy and broke the toy. Um, figure out how you're going to keep it from happening again. And this is where you teach him to share its app. Here's you. Here's your brother. You can throw half your brother controls half you influence the whole and no is a complete sentence. Said if he says he doesn't want to give you the toy, you gotta find something else to do kind of thing. So you very quickly. But he says I won't hit him again.

Okay, that's what you won't do. But what will you do instead? So then you given the options there and then the third is to heal. Now, your brother didn't get off to such a great start today. Being bumped over, they had with his favorite toy that you now have to go and buy him a new one or fix this one. Let's see if it's repairable, that kind of thing, of what can you do to help him have a better day? And he says, Well, he likes to be pulled in the wagon. So here's the five year old pulling the three year old. The five year old knows his own goodness.

That three year old knows his own his brother's goodness, and they heal so they could go back and fight later in the day because believe me, kids fight. Ah, but it's a matter of you hit. You said They know that right away you hit. You said you need to calm down and and work through the process.

Did you have family meetings? And if so, what? What was discussed? How are they run? And what was the frequency of them?

Yes, we have family meetings, and they were loosely put together when there was a need to come together as a family to decide when they were older. We talked to them about options for holidays. Now they get to choose how we want to go to Australia. We have limits and boundaries. Who said we're going to go to this place and what can we do and talk about it as they got even older? You know, they were better at planning trips when they were five. It was a matter of who's gonna do the evaporating And what do you think we need to put in the cooler to get us from this point to this point? Problem solving. Basically, if there was an issue in the family, um, where Mom or down had to leave because somebody was ill or something? Um, we had a really big issue where our kid's godfather was kidnapped in Lebanon.

He was in 1983. He was one of 11 on seven, and we held many family meeting's over. What do we do to be effective? And our kids were, like, 10 and, um, nine and seven at that point. And so we we decided we've always had family meals of the table. TV was off when Marty was kidnapped. Um, uh, Ted couple used to have a show every night. Uh um, miss a date.

Me. Uh, and so we watch TV. Ah, well, we ate to get caught up on what? What's happening with the hostages. So, you know, every family is going to do with different kinds of very difficult issues. Um, and, uh, uh, Marty did come to stay with us. Ah,

period of time after he was released and our kids were really closer. Me was their god. My father, Uh and so that was a traumatic time to deal with it. We also, when our kids were about the same age, Um, my brother in law died and we had the two kids one older than their oldest someone. The same age is our oldest. And so we have them. What do you do when all the other adults are planning a funeral that nobody had planned on and all of those things? So we got together, the the three kids myself. My husband, of course, was with the family hoping plan everything because it was his brother and the two whose father had died and said,

Okay, what should we do this afternoon in to remember in a special way, Perry in and chase Dad? And they all just kind of looked kind of solemn in this. The Perry said. I think we ought to go to a while Disney movie because that love those with us. Okay, so we're going to a while this tea, you know? But it was a matter of coming together and s so we didn't have meetings every week. I know some families do that. Our lives were just a little more hectic, but we did know a format for a meeting that we would have that we all listen to one another. We didn't frown on anybody suggestions. We would tell them how we felt, and I think those were all important skills in communication.

Um, and if there's an issue where we have a problem, it needs to be solved. Okay, We have a chore. No, but nobody likes to do bathrooms. It's just a reality at our house. No, they like to do bathrooms. Okay. How can we make this something? OK? We all will all rotate the bathroom, but we all have to do a standard. The bathrooms.

Now, if there's a chore one of my kids love to cook. And another light. Not especially, but she didn't like to cook so she would clean up. It's a working those kinds of things out. Uh, and if the one who always had to clean up says, But using too many dishes here. Okay, what can we do to solve that kind of a problem? It So you got a problem. What's your plan? Basically, it's a formula that we use. Well,

you know, I like to have some kind of structure there. You got a problem? Okay. What's the plan?

I'm a huge fan of that because it gets the kids out of, um knowing what to do and get some thinking how to do it. Yeah. Yeah, and they gotta figure it out. You're not telling

them? Yes. You still the adult? You're their parent till they reach puberty. And then you become their mentor. Their model, their guide. I really dislike it. When people say my teenager is my best friend. I say get a life. You know, they need a mentor. They don't need a friend right now. Not you as a friend. Then in adulthood, you could become their friend. And you better become a good friend because they do pick out your nursing home. Uh and so we need Thio. Move through that progression but it's critical during those formative years that were truly apparent. And then we become a mentor and a guide, and then we could become a good friend in their adult years.

Two questions. Love. Before we wrap up, I want to talk about teens and social media. And,

uh, yes. Now we have a five year old in social media, but yeah,

how do we as parents be responsible with their Children? And what kind of conversation should we be having with them? And what kind of monitoring, if any, should be put in place? And how does

the very same thing as red pajama, blue pajama? Um E. I mean, some of our kids today come out of the womb knowing how to use the phone, because Mom and Dad were using it in the room when they were born, you know, texting to their friends, sending pictures. And you see an 18 month old who takes a picture book and tries to slide it. It won't. It doesn't change because they're so used to have sliding on the phone. Ah, and so what we want to do is teach kids three things to be digitally savvy, smart about the tools they're using, and this starts very young. And I know we often think that we don't need to teach him because they don't have a cell phone yet.

But I was working with the Department of Defense schools in Europe, and I have done a day session for teachers. And then I was working with the parents at night. And then in the day, I had third and fourth graders together than fifth and sixth graders together, and teachers were in the back, and I said to the third and fourth graders, Can anyone here tell me how you might be mean on a cell phone? This little boy shot his hand up, had a smirk on his face, and he told me how he had been mean, not how it could be mean. He's so I asked my classmate, uh, and he was real cocky, he said.

I asked my classmate if I could borrow his phone to call my mom and any of this smart, and he said, But I didn't call my mom. I went into his phone book, and a lot of you say I know a lot of parents who don't know how to do this. But I went into his phone but consent an ugly text message to every one of them and got him in trouble. And he's laughing, right? The teachers in the back of the room were stunned. You know who is the most done? The fourth grade teacher. His mother. Oh, uh, she believed she didn't have to teach him this stuff. Does he have a cell phone yet?

Know you borrowed a friend's. So I believe it's important about age five. We start teaching them to be savvy about the tools they use to be civil. Uh and that's where we put the structures on it. Oh, I used to use the old Sufi saying that our words must pass through through gates first. Is it true? Not kind of true may be true after a rumor, But is it true? Is it necessary to say something may be true but not necessary to say And the last is is it kind? It won't pass for all three gates. Don't you dare push, send. But it also is true in the end, the offline world too. Is it true?

Is it necessary? Is it kind on again. We're finding in a climate today. Um uh, with adults not going through those three days before they engage their mouth or there fingers. Eso we've gotta work against that. So we teach him to be digitally savvy, digitally civil, digitally safe. Now it starts about age five. You have limits and boundaries. Of course you would just like crossing the street for a five year old. More limits and boundaries and fewer responsibilities and decision making. And then you constantly increase the responsibilities of decision making as they demonstrate ability and age appropriateness. Then you look at what limits and boundaries we put on it. I believe through the early teen years,

it's important that we know their passwords, that they trust us, and we trust them. But trust and I used Ronald Reagan's comment trust, but verify right with them because there's so much dangerous stuff out there today. Um, and we need to talk to him. I tried to stay up, and there is a wonderful website, um, started here in Colorado. Common Sense media dot or GE, and you can subscribe to it free, and it will give you the latest APS. The latest games um, the latest concerns with movies,

and they've done a wonderful thing. They hired experts in the field to make handouts for parents and educators from preschool all the way through high school, on digitally reading people savvy and safe but uses different terminology. So that's a tool that I use regularly have been the other one of stop cyberbullying, ah dot or get Parry Aftab started is made for middle school and high school kids and their parents. They hope them help their kids, they say, and civil and, uh, savage about it. I mean, the tools are changing so rapidly, and you've got to know that kids are not targeting their their peers. Uh, on Facebook now because Grandma's on Facebook, they're using maps and they're using them quite effectively. And these air tools, that's all they are. They could be used for good or for

ill, And parents have an obligation to kind of keep up with what's going on.

We did, and so did we. Educators both of us do. But I also feel very strongly. Raffi, the singer started the Red Hood project. Raffi Beluga. The whale was one of his same Assam's after a young girl had killed herself after being targeted by a predator from the Netherlands on, and she lived in Canada. Amanda Todd and she thought she was communicating with a 15 year old. And he blackmailed her. Um, and the our crack team here in the United States actually found him in the Netherlands and found her and over 200 other U. S and Canadian boys and girls who have been blackmailed by him. And, uh so he was so angry he started the Red Hood project that you can subscribe to, but his whole pushes that Yes, teachers and parents can help keep kids safe. Would

you talk to your kids about examples like that, or would you

hide them from it? Oh, no, I would I would, um, age appropriate ability. Appropriate again. But he goes to Google and Twitter and Yahoo and the latest up producers and Facebook and says, You've got to help us out. You've got the money you got. The resource is you need to help keep our kids safe because educators and parents cannot do it alone, and the police department will be overwhelmed. Um, and so we need to be able to have that conversation and demand that these companies that are developing these tools help us help our kids be safe. Um, it's more of the user of safety, Uh,

but also, you know, we have an obligation to teach our kids to be savvy about these tools, not be used by them, but to be able to use them effectively and civil, probably civil is the most important. Um, sometimes kids will hide behind the anonymity Benet. But other times people say, Well, it's that anonymity. No, Sometimes they can hardly wait to get to school to see how the targeting kids responding to their vile comments to her of the day before when they used their full names because there's nothing gonna happen to them now. I was a part of developing David's law in San Antonio, Texas, drafting that law for cyber issues because I think he was. What

is that loss?

It's a sight on cyber bullies called David's Law. You can look it up in the Texas State Legislator is one of the first to deal with, uh, holding kids accountable if they tell someone to kill themselves, as had happened to David. If they do mean or harass someone on the Web toe. Hold them accountable. Uh, our laws have not caught up. Uh, and so parents have a kid being relentlessly tormented. And what do we do? We can't take it into our own hands as much as we'd like to, but the law says they haven't reached a point. Well, now they have. And it's a you know what different degrees of offenses there.

So, you know, we need all of us to help keep our kids safe. The online offline worlds We used to talk about the real world and then the online world. What? We can't use that language anymore. It's online offline. Have merged to create the real world for our young people. Today I spent I'm 70. I spend a lot of time trying to keep up. Um, you know, fortnight is now ah popular.

Tell me about it

and and it frightens me because it and people say, Oh, don't be such a fuddy duddy. But I know the research behind what military has done to help break down the barrier for killing someone and set same kind of saying breaking down those barriers. Those inhibitions and kids are becoming desensitized to small

plane. If you were apparent, would you allow your child to play that, or would it be supervised or framed? Or how would you go about that?

Um, I'm not a real fan of censorship, but age appropriate ability. Appropriate. I believe that game was developed for older people. It was not developed for seven year olds, However, Let me just write you a little bit more. There is, uh, online program where somebody has developed a form of that, that young kids. And this is something Paris E to be aware of, uh, in the row box and where kids go online and get invited by friends. And they thought, and they may parent may think there their kid is just playing good games here because,

oh, no, somebody's communicating with them. Somebody else is inviting them to talk. Uh oh. What is this? Well, somebody did it a form of fortnight, but it doesn't have any of those restrictions on it. And you can have, ah, five year old seven year old six year old playing it. Now I know there are parents who have actually hired coaches so their kids can get better at it, and they've hired coaches themselves so they could be there Sunday. Robotic 07 I've got serious concerns about it because I have I and part of it's my own world history, my own life's history.

I work in Rwanda with orphans from the 94 genocide. I see what happens. We're hateful rhetoric. Uh, it is a short walk to hate crimes to crimes against humanity. And ah, and I also look att the good research out there about what happens with all that violence, any violence our kids are exposed to, whether it's online or offline, become a part of their world view. And we need to be tune into that, um and S o. I have a problem with that. With young kids with front, a portion of their brains are not fully developed. There's a lot wrong with that for young people.

Now I'll probably get a lot of great putting people saying, Oh, there's nothing that bad about it, But in my book, just because it's not wrong doesn't make it right. I talk about, um, the whole issue. Uh, what's so wrong with all this violence and violent video games it isn't just that one. Ah, and again there's people who will say, Well, the research has said that it's not that bad. Well, let's look at sea.

Who did the resource? A research for it, Um, And when we find out who did it, if it's the people developing the games, you know that's going to be skewed. If it's people who are truly concerned about the what's happening in kids, lives and in their minds and are willing to look at it objectively and now I think we are seeing some good research on that, Um, but I think it's critical that we take a serious look at what's what's wrong with all the violence that kids are being exposed to. Um, and if we can do that, then I believe we can show kids that you know, violence in our homes. I don't know. Maybe it's the way we treat one another.

It isn't just the online, but how do we speak to one another in our homes as adults? How do we speak toe one another? Um uh, When we're talking to our neighbors, how do we correspond? Are we always online? Ah, and if we're always online when the kid walks into school from school and we're on our phones. Do we get off our phone so that, uh, they can communicate with us and say, How was your day? And the kid walks in, head down, shoulders down and it's fine.

This isn't fine, but I want to go back here just a moment. The deadening consequences. What's wrong with all this violence? Um, riel or imagined Acts of violence tend to cultivate a sense of danger, of mistress of alienation and gloom in our kids None. None of what our kids need today and Children who are regularly exposed and engaged in media violence. And that isn't just the gaming but media violence. In general, they're more likely to become desensitized to real life violence, so they won't see other kids at school. Being mean to another kid is such an awful thing when it really should their guts out to say this is awful. One of the scary things is they imitate that violence that they see in here. They also some of them. For some,

they become easily intimidated or depressed because it's online and offline for them. Others become fearful and distrustful of others, though that really quick creates community. Um, and I think one of the most important things that happen is they miss their natural, healthy fear clues. Our bodies want to keep us alive, and if they become fearful, full of fear, they don't get tuned into things that should bother them. Little ones will say, I don't want to go to Uncle George is because they're listening to their little gut say it's not a good place to be and we don't live. But if they're fearful of dating, you know stranger danger, which drives me crazy because we usually have to go to a stranger. If we need something over,

you need help. Then they missed their fear clues, and they're often lulled into thinking that they're safe when in familiar surroundings with familiar people. And that's not always true. Ah, and when you have those video games, the you know there are pluses, it does draw them into intricate systems where they learn to play and interact with one another. It does strengthen eye hand coordination. As surgeons, they use it quick thinking and cooperation and imagination of problem solving. Um, and it does some of the games can invite kids to be thoughtful and caring and come up with solutions to quandaries or dilemmas like Sim City and the U. N. Has developed some wonderful games for that. But there are probable negatives as well.

When you're playing a video game, it requires a little more than quick, aggressive, violent responses to perceive threats. You see something pop up right away, you got to respond. It glorifies violence as a legitimate solution to problems, and violence is not a solution like this, Loescher said. Conflict is inevitable. Violence is not. And it it sets other people up his adversaries praise or targets rather than people that we need to communicate with that Martin Buber, Zay And now in our common humanity. You know, I am I. And you are.

Though I'm unique, you're unique and we have in common it does we know it to be true military abuse it It breaks of our natural inhibition to killing. It also does something that neurologists have found out and neuroscience. It creates neural pathways that connect violence with pleasure and rewards rather than sadness and sympathy and front, and that ought to scare us all, and it's nonstop. Stimulation can provide comfort and becomes a source of soothing. We have young people waking up at night having to get online to play something to soothe them back to sleep. And we do know that for some kids that can become addicted. So we have to look at this deadening consequences. And what's so wrong with all the violence, whether it's online or offline,

does something all parents and educators should reflect on. I want to end with a question on sex and drugs on how we should talk to our kids. I mean, my kids, we can use my kids as hypotheticals. They're sort of like eight and nine right now. Walk me through how I should, um, talk to them, but that over the next 10 years and what what do I need to be doing now to lay the foundations?

I'm sorry. Her using the proper words very young. Ah ah, little three year old girl. She started coming by the diner digits. People go, you know, and and we have 105 words for Penis 20 at 125 for breasts and won't ankle. You know, we have to start on teaching kids to use their proper words. I want a little boy to say that there's something my Penis feels funny. And instead of using all these euphemisms, uh, we we, uh uh, sausage and bacon or twigs and Berries and all the words that we use junk family jewels to use them And you say, But why?

Well, when they reach middle school, they won't be calling one another a slut, whore, fag, queer bitch which are derogatory sexual terms. So we start young, you said, Well, 89 No, no. We start even younger. We start giving them the proper terms. We talk to them about limits and boundaries, just like we talked about limits and boundaries and every other part of their lives that sexuality is an integral part of their being. So that instructions,

How do we treat them? How do we treat their bodies? How do we talk to them It when they're real, real young about proper words. Then, as we're getting older and we're seeing puberty drop with, especially our young girls today. And so the talk quote unquote has had to come earlier. But if we catch it and being free about talking about our bodies properly and talking about uh uh that we don't violate somebody else's space. And then we can start talking about the difference between teasing and taunting, you said. But what does that have to do with sexuality? Teasing is laughing with somebody. Taunting is laughing at somebody. So if we can, Tara start about age five,

talking to kids about the devastating teasing, which is a mutual thing. It's lighthearted, clever and benign, and it's only a small part of your relationship. Ah, and both parties air laughing on taunting. It's one sided. It's a small. It's the only part of the relationship you have. Use bigoted. Come instantly, Disguise this jokes in teasing. When the other person of Pierce distressed, we stop in taunting. We keep going.

So if we teach them that, then by fourth grade we can start talking to kids about the difference between flirting, which is normal, natural, necessary to keep the human race going. And sexual bullying, which is none of those because the checklist for teasing and flirting is very similar for taunting and sexual bullying. Your very similar So that's why so give starting young. And so it isn't just dropping in the talk being open when a kid acid question about sexuality, You're driving in the car and you're, ah, eight year old says Daddy, where did I come from? And your mind's going a monument. Where do I start? Where do I start?

And you start talking about Well, Mom and I loved one another, and he says, No, no. Is it New Jersey or New York? You know, finding out where the kids coming from, um, and not be upset when they bring something up. If they use a gross sexual term to stop in its tracks because that's mean and cruel and then get some help. There's some good programs out there. Um, I know my oldest granddaughters, 11 And the hospital actually had several sessions for moms and daughters to attend, and fathers and sons to attend about your changing body.

And they had a well developed and it it provided an environment of lots of girls and lots of women and lots of boys and lots of men to help um, kids talk about this on da ah, use those kinds of resource is, and then when they noticed their bodies. You notice? See if one is developing earlier than other girls. And do you need to get a little sanitary pack and have that ready? So you're ready. And she won't be afraid to tell you that she started her period or mom I wanted brought. We've sexualized, are young Children, and we've got to get away from that s so that they can normally develop just like development of everything else from a portion of their brains, their emotions, and then become tuned in to, um, that UN age where they're unable to be an adult and unable to be a child and wanting desperately to be both,

Um, and that's that that 13 through 15 years and those air hard on everybody, including the kid, the wonder years weren't so really wonderful when it comes to their identity, their self identity, their sexual identity, and asking lots of questions and be open. And you can honestly say I'm gonna have to look that up or talk to me about why it's important for you to know that right now. Um and it's being open and, uh, talking to them, they're hearing things they're able to see things online that you and I were never exposed to, uh, for good and for you. There's a good stuff that kids are finding out, and it's for media.

But there's also some stuff that's not healthy. Dr. Phil's of Bardo, um, did some amazing work. He did the Stanford prison experiment, but he also did a telex talk. And you look it up under Phil Zimbardo. Um, it gets the name of the talk is scary, but it's about our young boys and what pornography is doing to them on and why it's so dangerous, the kind that's out there today and what it does to their sense of relationships with the real world young girls that they hopefully will fall in love

with. I think it has a huge impact on adults to

doesn't that's well, you know it does. We know it does on relationships, but so, you know, as an adult, your brain is fully developed. Theirs is not their own sexual identity. Their sense of self in relation to other human beings is not so. It has really devastating effects, and so we need to be tuned into those kinds of things and again age appropriate ability, appropriate what their interests are on. They do need to know how their body is developing. And if you're uncomfortable with it, or you're not sure My generation My mother didn't know the words all the proper body cards because they never use thumb. Um, and they were never told what they were on.

And so operation was reading our bodies ourselves, You know, which I gave Thio my daughters when they were 15 and 16. Um and, uh, but now there's a lot out there. Seek it out. Ask for help. Use your programs that you have in your community that will help you, but being honest and open, remember, if your kids can tell you the good, the bad and the ugly going back to, you know, not praising them and not using rewards and punishments of it'll come much easier where they feel like they can talk to you about anything. Use humor.

Um, and I also, while we're on that with drugs and sex, you don't have to tell them everything you did wrong. You can dio like lessons, but they really there are things your parents don't know. It's probably best that your chickens don't know either. And And this there was, Ah, real teachable moment in it. Uh, you're getting your kid out of the local jail. And you ended up there once too, you know, sharing that with them. But in a way of,

you know, we could get through this and and the like, And I'm here for you, um, kind of thing. Uh, but telling about all your experiences with drugs in the eighties probably isn't the best idea. So, you know, we learned from those things. There are things you don't have to share. There's over sharing. So and we want them to feel good about their sexuality regard, you know, wherever they should on what I respect from there is on dhe to be open to them. Ah, and let them know that we love them, that we're here for them, that they are

who they are. That's a great spot to end this conversation. Barbara, thank you so much. This was a phenomenal exploration of how to raise kids and how to think about it from a parenting and a teacher perspective. And I really appreciate you taking the time.

Well, kids are. Were they are worth our time or energy or resource that they help them be all they can be, because that's what matters.

Thighs. This is Shane again, just a few more things. Before we wrap up, you can find show notes at Burnham Street. Blawg dot com slash podcast. That's f A R N A M E S T r e t blog dot com slash podcast. You can also find information there on how to get a transcript. And if you'd like to receive a weekly email from me filled with all sorts of brain food, go to Farnham Street. Blawg dot com slash newsletter. This is all the good stuff I found on the Web that week that I've read and shared with close friends books I'm reading and so much more. Thank you for listening.