wait. I was going to say that, You know, the biggest vic came off, um, Corona wires, in many ways is our humanity. You know, we're not able to touch each other or not even to see each other. You know that what really makes us any world species is our ability to communicate horribly non worldly. And you know, the sense of touch and the texture we give to each other. And I think June can connect us. Burger doesn't connect the complete us right

now. Yeah. I mean, I couldn't agree more. We've been having these, like, you know, dinner guests over, you know, on FaceTime resume. And, you know, there's a stared moments where it's like, Ah, think, yeah, I could see you.

Just like, you know, when you came on the scene right now is it's great seeing you. But then, you know, after a few moments, like, fuck like, because there's no date where, like, all of a sudden, you know, like, this is the definitive moment where things change and I'm gonna go meet you it and, uh, lands,

and we're gonna go make some photos together like there's no I can't say I'll see you on May 15th. We just we just don't know. I think that's so you go from like before you have seen your friend Thio like this Next level of real nous. Yeah, a reality sitting

in. I think this is Ward is the biggest challenge right now. Is hardly you contextualize our your existence. I think a lot of us are turning to zoom the bride. That's not enough that that really is not enough. And, you know, I don't mind the isolation as much. But like not seeing other people is like, can be a little tough for someone for sure.

And were you in San Francisco, By the way? I didn't see you at the top. Yeah,

I am. And I assume you're in your home office and with family.

Yeah, I'm with the family, And, uh, but I'm worried about you, man. So you're living alone, right?

Yeah. I mean, you know, I have enough food for a couple of weeks. I, uh you know, things like I'm okay. As good as it can be in this in this day and age, I think I'm more fortunate than many other people. I think we are you know, you should be grateful for what we have. There's a lot of people who who are dealing with this and they don't have anything, you know, and where they have to work. And they have to deal with the reality of are being being, you know, exposed to this wireless.

You know, I'm just thinking of our, you know, emerging economies like India, where we we don't literally have water. I don't know how they're gonna afford soap to wash their hands. You know, I really inconveniences so smaller compared to yeah, it's like a huge part of the human race, which can it can suffer in the process. So is definitely a reality check for all of us. You know, I wonder that one of the reasons I wanted to talk to you was like, you're a thoughtful guy and you're just think of our other people before years. So I How do we come out from this as as ah, as people do, we become are better to be in a do we evolve as a species are. But we just go back to being the consumerist assholes. We be over us 25 50 years

I'm losing track of the days for sure. But Dave Winer had a tweet yesterday. Day before last week, I I did. But in recent days, he had a tweet that said, like, um, are we gonna want to survive this, you know, like it was something to that effect. I and I think the the sentiment was like, you know, if there's that much human suffering across the board, and things are a shit show with this, you know, people that,

like, survive, like, you know, most people, But, like the world is like in a horrific place from a economic standpoint and human suffering standpoint, are we Are we gonna be glad we survived? Was kind of the That was my take from this tweet. It was a short tweet. Uh, I I didn't read his block if you wrote something expanded on it, but you could feel the you could feel the, um the trauma in the tweet. I mean, I felt like I definitely felt that and and it would be a lie if if different moments in the last week,

I hadn't said some level of like, like despair where you see, like 800 in Italy like you. Just you just you can't even you can't. Yeah, You can't get your head around this stuff without, you know, wanting to cry your eyes out. But I think that I do have this, like believe I d'oh, that may change, But I do hold on to this belief that, like, we're gonna come out as a more compassionate society, I mean, I'll give an example.

A month ago, people were saying that Bernie Sanders was like a danger to human kind for trying to provide, like healthcare for all people. Looks like we've gone from demonizing that notion Thio as as a as a country saying, like, we have to take care of people like So I think your question is Is this gonna be is gonna fade away the sentiment or is it gonna be stronger or linger, or What's the What's the prediction on that? And I kind of feel like, um, I feel like a bits flip. It's almost like the negative version of, like, 9 11 where this bit flipped around this nationalism, like after 9 11 there was, like American flags on NBC and broadcasting. And there was this,

like drum Beat the war We've got to go, Go get the bad guy, whoever they were and like the whole country kind of change and said, You know, Patriot actors except the bull and blah, blah, blah. And I'm hoping that like the compassion bit flipped and now suddenly, like things like, You know, whether it's you, be I or what? Like there's just this Ah, different notion of like, uh, taking care of each other because we have now really exposed this country for what it is where,

like, there's a tiny group of people that have, like all the all the wealth, and most people are living in a crisis mode without the crisis. Now, now it sze terrific. So I I believe that I know what you think, But I I believe it.

So you know the inner if the outcome off this virus is, which is killing our very humanity is humanism. I think it isn't acceptable price to pay for such a you know, massive pandemic. Because, as as the species we were getting so far apart from each other, you were not thinking about the collective and you were thinking about being so so individual individualistic about everything you know, and that came to forefront. It's like those idiots who were in Miami having spring break. And, you know, are the rich people in invest four having their party on becoming the party zero according to the New York Times. Oh, are any of those incidents very like you? Just going to see a society? We've become so narcissistic, so self centered,

so obsessed with being consuming everything. Have you forgot that the other imperious power is us? Right, Right, right. You realize we respect. We have to respect the teacher's a little bit more. I mean, just imagine you have to do with your kids for, like, three weeks every day. That should tell you why you should pay the teachers more you. And if you think of them as a glorified many, she'll have to pay for the paper. That

Yeah, yeah, absolutely. Grocery workers, factory people, nannies. How about nurses like nurses, like are like warriors right now, right? I mean, you saw those iconic photos at a Rome with the nurses would not. Yeah, I mean, like that says badass as it gets like and their compensation is Ah, it's pretty, pretty brutal.

I just don't get that, like, I think forget, like which side of the argument you're on, How much money you have, what political stripe you where. But at the end of the day, you know, if anything we're seeing, it's the little people who make up the society, not the rich people. And yet like a rapist in Richard, a person in prison against you Corona virus test before some poor person like that makes no sense to me and that essentially, is exposing What's wrong with our society, especially in this country?

Yeah, yeah, that's like,

It's definitely something which is making my, you know, not boiling getaway.

I get it, I get it. I saw a tweet lead like another tweet. That's like, Hey, if you want to check if you have Kuroda like, you should cough on a rich person, Yeah. Did you see

that? No, I didn't see that, but that's a great idea.

It's it's dark, but like I get the sentiment for sure.

So, talking about the sentiment, how do you need this? The environment right now, you and I both working the world of startups. How hard do you think you know how that works.

Yeah. I mean, I did. Damn good question. I mean, I I think the answer is changing rapidly, but, you know, you saw, you know, the beginning of a mountain of layoffs coming with a lot of companies that layoffs yesterday made a lot of headlines. Some big tech companies, it's clearly willing to start. Um, so there's there's gonna be a lot of a lot of, uh changes in that. And how companies,

you know, like, I think layoffs are gonna be. You know, it's just gonna start ramping through the summer. I think we're headed for, like, a pretty big recession. Um, I think hiring is gonna be really difficult because hiring over video conferences like every seal I've talked Thio like even the ones that wanna hire their kind of stumped on how to do it and, like, Well, the candidate want to work for the startup in ah, video conferencing thing in a world where the world is so volatile, or is this gonna be like this? Like their safety of joining Google and Amazon And,

you know, like, well, people want to work for start up side. I think the next six months are gonna be, ah, are pretty tough. I think it's gonna be in some ways, Like what? We you know, a worse version of, like, the 2000 crashing at the 2008 problem like like you and I saw the 2000 thing and ah, in my my Marie. That was way worse than the 081 for in terms of the startup ecosystem. And I think this is gonna be,

um, worse than that one from just I mean, just purely narrowly looking at, you know, our small corner of the universe.

So what are you telling your your founders, your you know, the spark Capitals. Startups like, what are you guys telling them?

But for the ones that had raised money before, You know, February, um, we're saying, Hey, you know, you raised money on a plan. Um, and you closed around before favorites. That's the good news. The second part, though, is your plan doesn't work anymore. Like that plan is no longer valid. So you don't have to tell the sacred view that you raise money on this plan like it's it's, you know,

it's the good news is you've got cash. But now you gotta go do the hard work and come up with a new plan. And so I don't have a blanket formula of like, oh, cut your burn and half or assume it's gonna you know, But I I think the part that we start really digging in is when you know Seo say, you know, we're good, Maybe we'll have a 10% hiccup, but otherwise we're good. That's when I tend to get a little bit more energetic. Um, but anyway, that's that category companies, the companies that are, you know,

have a year of runway or less. You know, we're really suggesting, for the most part, could make the cash last year and 1/2 or more. And the companies that are, you know, have runway for 3 to 6 months. Ah, you know, we're we're trying to help them extend runway and then figure out which ones of those companies that weaken help support to stretch out their runway because on their own that, like, I don't I can't rely on other investors like saving the day in the next 90 days, like I just I just don't have a lot of, ah, confidence that that's a likely scenario.

So and I think that's why a lot of these layoffs are gonna happen. It's because, um, you know, ceos gonna realize like, Hey, there's there's not new money for my company And so how do I make the balance sheet last longer? Um, so I think in those three different categories is a lot of like, uh, variants. But But loosely speaking, that's kind of how I'm thinking about it may change next week. How did you

know? I think we've been very I think you know John Callahan has Bean too.

Yeah, pressure

for, you know, the previous two down cycles like you have like I have. And here is and he told our group of companies is that, you know, being panicked is probably the worst thing you could do. But being smart and cautious and agile is the number one king a company can do. I think there will be opportunities for a lot of companies which will emerge as a result of that. However, there is also gonna be a lot of challenges. So I think that most of the thing the number one thing at these type toward some of the founders I get I work with is that, Hey, you know, focus on controlling your own destiny more than anything else and take care of your people and, you know, whether it's your family or your team's. I think this is a time for compassion.

I'm not not being not being, you know, like being pretty brutal about this. Everybody is in the same boat. No. One. No one asked for this, right? It wasn't like there's a lot of companies which are making bad decisions and they will use it could wanna write this as an excuse to shut down the business. But there's a lot of great companies which are going to suffer for no, no fault of theirs. And then a lot of people who bet on those companies will suffer as well. So everything which needs to happen has to have been kindly more than anything.

Yeah, that's

how they will never is the communication. You gotta have empathy for everybody's pain right now. You just cannot think of this like just a dollar and cents, you know, behavior. Unfortunately, our industry is a little bit short on empathy and I talk of our technology, you know, You see it roller down. We see Twitter every day. You know that lack of empathy and, you know, expertise on everything. I mean that just like people this not this time. You know, he just kind of shut up and listen.

Oh, my God. That's it's becoming even more heightened right now. We see Twitter. I mean, he used to be, like a know it all about business. Now it's a noticeable about science and medicine in public health. Uh,

I think the greatest modern diseases that we all think we're experts on everything, you know, I think if we can just come come to terms with the fact that I don't know if you can say that, I don't know, that probably is cause a long way in my book. Sex, please.

Well, I think I think it comes from a place. I mean, if I I'm just speculating here, but like, I think this know it all think I think it actually comes from like Ernest Place, where people are like there's a curious mind who wants to be productive and move the ball forward and be hopeful, like I I actually, I mean, I'm sure there's plenty of narcissism out there. So, like, that's not I'm not trying to excuse were behavior. But I I think there's this, like Ernest feeling of either trying to searching for hope or searching to, like, see something to hang your hat on or searching for.

Like like, you know, when, Like Consumer veces talking about, like, different medical treatments. You know, it's easy to like, you know, wanted, like, get scream from the roof. But I do think there's something there that is is ah, there's a good part of it if that makes any sense, like there is something in there, but it's coming out. It's very perverted.

I mean, I look at what we do right as investors. If you find the right founder, give them the money they know hard to make that money go great. However, if you're one of those receipts keeps interfering, that's not gonna work out. And I think this is the same thing with they're wanting to do something. I think you should just enable people who know better and have them give them. The opportunity is, too, except I think that's what you know we're good at as a CZ, investors at the society as Silicon Valley of the Society were very good finding people who can who can take an idea and run with it. And I think, why wouldn't we apply that to, you know, the need of the hour,

but that it is better logistics better. You know, uh, Brett a science but medicine, all those things. When I was this morning, I went for a walk like a five year, and, you know, it was a long walk. Two hours, I came back home, I mean, and I was walking on the street and and there was just absolutely empty. There was nothing. And I looked at that,

and I just said, Like, you know what? Those delivery, no barks, make a lot of sense right now. That right? Like, I just think if 10 years, 20 years from now, if climate change makes it impossible for us to get out of our house, you look back and think of this as Oh, wow. This is just This was just a better test or reality that we re liver. And so suddenly, all those technologies,

whether it is drone delivery. Although the dystopian technology start to May. Okay, you can actually work. Kind of trying to figure out hard to you, not get to a point where we have to, you know, you know, like, bet on dystopian technologies to survive this right? I think a lot of this is where we should be thinking about hard to do things better. And I think for me, that is, uh and that is the big question right now.

Yeah. Did you take any photos this morning?

I did a couple of photos, like, you know, it's like my kind of photography. It's really hard to do in another one. Environments.

Yeah, because you've got a tripod and you need time and you're taking your long exposures. But at five. In the morning, there's probably well, normal did Is not that many people out today. There was nobody, right? Yeah, but are you around in California to to go somewhere like are you? Are you allowed to just outside of getting some exercise like are you Are you permitted to go to you know, Mt. Tam and and take some photos there If you want to, as ah, you know, for your personal, whatever you wanna call it. Enjoyment.

Yeah. I mean, if you're not with somebody else,

Yeah, it's pretty clear you're those places They're not closed off.

Yeah. I mean, I think the national parks and all our clothes bird like I mean, if I want to go to the beach, I could go to the, you know, except, like, in order to get there, I will. I will have to unfortunately, you know, use a newborn, all right? Or take the public transport. We're just still running. Surprising me.

Is anybody on it? Like it's like a public worker. I mean, like, uh, there's all that. Yeah.

Every time I see a train go by tram go by, there's, like, at least 6 to 8 people sitting in there, and I'm talking about 6 a.m. In the morning. I go, Yeah, I don't go after seven o'clock. I'm home. Yeah, they're not getting for most of the day. So

I haven't picked up my camera in a week, which is maybe the most like the longest stretch that I can remember in a little while, and I just haven't had the head space for it, but I I'm determined to take it out tomorrow. Maybe partly because this conversation and partly because it's time. But, um, but I don't know, maybe I've just been, uh, just in a funk.

Are you? Are you at home, or like, in your Yeah, you go. You go away for during the summer. Do other places, right?

So, yeah, you were accepted. Yeah, we've been Nantucket Place, but now I'm a home in the in the suburbs of Boston right now

so you can go out and walk around and take

photos. Yeah. I mean, it's suburbia. So, you know, maybe I could get my Todd hide. Oh, uh, dude, you going and suburban voters that night or something, but, uh, I, uh yeah, I mean, the state is shut down.

Um, I think I think we're basically operating like you'll have been operating, which is, like, grocery store pharmacy, No gatherings. But I think on your own there is some flexibility or latitude is my sense. Um, I just haven't I haven't done it, but I I need to have been getting outside. I've been I've been going for walks and things, but for some reason, I have it picked up my camera. I did find out that my favorite photo, Love is still up and running in in L. A.

So I sent them some rolls from a previous trip, and I got it back. I didn't even know they were still at work. Um, so that makes me feel like Okay, well, keep shooting film.

Well, I think that's Ah, good. We're off. Oh, spending time for you because I love your photographs. So hopefully you can take up your camera and tell us a word your neighborhood looks like when it's shut down, you know? Yeah, that's what I'm gonna getting great right now, just go out, and, um, I go out, take photographs. I mean, I can only go,

like, interviewed years of, like, a mile and 1/2 so it's kind of boring by court, ever. You know, I'm just I'm just feeling really I am thinking about, like, you know what if Aiken in a mask, we're in the gloves, you know, Take all those cleaning wipes in, You know, you're in front of those lift bikes and bike all the way to to Ocean Beach on exercise, and at the same time, you know,

get a chance to make some sunrise photos of the Ocean Beach. But I'm coming back after that will be like, Oh, my God. How did we come back?

Now, I know

that's what I'm worried about.

You know, it would be a really interesting photo project. Also is like all these people that are working at these grocery stores, and I feel like there's a lot of stories there that should be told. Um,

yeah, with a long lens user. I do it with a long lens. Right

now. I know. I know you want to be safe from a public health sample and protect yourself in everything, but it's like, Yeah, I know, man. We took a lot for granted, didn't

we? Did indeed. And, you know, unfortunately, it takes something like this to remind us of how yeah, how good we have it. And,

uh, how is your family in India right now? Like, what's, uh what is there like like with the mood and all that, Is it? Is it like perseverance? Is it Dyer? Is it is it like what? What's the sense?

So I mean, a parents are locked down. There's a three week long town on the country. They have enough food and everything, so hopefully there will be okay. And, uh, I'm a little bit concerned because, you know, we can't really go. So all of us, me, my brother, my sister, everybody's freaked out. A little bear, like how to be with their You know,

one of my, uh, my sister in law's father is not going. You know, there's a lot of, like, stuff which is going on, which causes anxiety,

but yeah, you know, I get it

as longer they're there, that indoors, I hope, you know, because they don't have any other you know, they didn't have. And he had prayed now, like so they do not have any interaction with the world outside. So which is it? What is it? I just hope they don't

kill each other. Are they in good spirits?

Yeah. It's like you know, they're okay. I just I just laugh because, uh, that's parents Very buy them. Can you do

right now? So and you could have

All right, boss, this is all right. I'm glad I caught up to you, and this is part of my occasional conversations with friends on on Zoom and doing this as, like, a quick part cast down and dirty.

All right, I think it's great. I'm, uh I was thinking about you, so I'm glad we did this. And, you know, let's let's not let too much time go go by your brother. Okay? You two take care.