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Work–life Balance

Hustle podcast.

September 09

Anthony, Natalie and Rick discuss what they've recently learned on a client trip to Finland about work–life balance.

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Hey, guys. Welcome back to the fun sized podcast. The hustle podcast. Since it's now called this is, uh, Rick. Rick Messer. I'm here with Anthony and Natalie. Hey, guys. Natalie here,


Anthony, Partner and, uh, janitor and experience.


Yes. It's good to be back. We've been out for a while. I've been doing some interesting things. We thought we'd kinda share that with you. We're gonna get into a topic on work, Life balance. That's something that we've been thinking a lot about over the last a few months specifically. And we kind of have our own take on that. But first thought, we just catch you guys up with what we've been doing since the last episode with stew, where we talked about choosing the right clients. We've been on the road, the lots and in the air. So we did a, uh, client trip to Finland.

I was in Colorado for a little while. And then you guys, where'd you guys go? After friend. Then we went to Stockholm, Sweden, and then over to Oslo, Norway, and then down to Copenhagen, Denmark


also took a train ride through that's right mountains to Bergen, Norway, which is like going through like, well, you know, like something out of a storybook.


Yeah, there's a city that we went through called fins f i n s key. And it was where they filmed the Star Wars


Empire strikes back the snow battle. Part


of it part. Oh, yeah, with those, like, giant Lee robots. Yeah, they look like camels or something without an imperial Walkers Cereal. Yeah, those were cool, but everybody knows how to bring those down. Now, you just get a little jet thing and like, you wrap up their legs around and then they fall down, so kind of move point now. Okay, Use those anymore.

Uh, yeah. So, yeah, we went out to Finland for quiet trip, and then Anthony and Natalie got a vacation, right?


1st 1 in, like, first proper one in about two and 1/2 years.


That's awesome. You guys are back now, and you're feeling refreshed. Yes,


Well, way were for the 1st 3 or four days that we were back, and then we went to San Jose and right a couple of times in


Denver, because fun size is working with paypal now. Yeah, that's the new thing. We've also been doing, which is really fun. Uh, yeah. And you guys went to owner camp, right? Yeah. Yeah. Sweet. So we've been busy. We've been doing a lot of different things. We've been launching new products with our clients on doing all that travel, and that's been a lot of fun.

So, uh, while we're in Finland, we actually learned a lot about the life work life balance because we're working with a company, that their product was kind of centered around that. And we did a lot of discovery and diving down, learning about, like, sleep and work, life, balance and stuff like that. But they also just meeting them the team out there that was really inspiring because they just wanted to open up their culture to us And, like, just show us like the Finnish way. Kind of, um,

we learned a lot. We did a lot of cool things. We ate some interesting things. Yeah, like, uh, reindeer.


Yeah, like several doing kinds of reindeer. Get all Rudolf reindeer reindeer steak, which was one of the best chicks and everybody. That was totally incredible. The bone, reindeer Heart and Mooseheart Mooseheart jerky could all mooseheart jerky Apparently that's like a very expensive is delicacy there.


So this is not easy to get a moose is heart also had tar. And it is the tar that you're thinking of thing kind that you tar and feather people like a desert thing that candy tasted like


awesome karma Lee


salty with vanilla ice cream. Oh, in fresh picked Berries, right? Yes. Everywhere we went, we would just be, like walking and talking about work or something in the project we're working on. Then they're like, Hold on, just reach down and pull up like a bunch of blueberries and raspberries. Just a handful of fresh, wild, crazy.


It was pretty nuts, you know, because we were planning for the trip way. They hired us before they met us face to face. The referral and we're planning for the trip will be a week with the client. We've never done anything like that before. My expectation was that we'd be inside of their office working from 9 a.m. To seven or eight PM like, really intense. And it was really surprising to see that fact exactly the opposite.


That's what I thought, too. I was excited to check out Finland, just like maybe go to a restaurant while we're out there or something like look out the window and the plane as we're doing. But they really did, like, let us, like, experience their culture a lot deeper than I was expecting. With it was it was you two guys me and Fi. So we have like a little fun size gang out there. Fun size in Finland, there is plenty of photos and stuff.


Check that fun size F NSC in Finland. Hashtag There's some cool,


cool stuff. Yeah, I also dream I'll throw a link t hashtag I found, like a service that lets you browse Web links or whatever, but it's not sorry. It's not all about just like the fun we had in the trip we have. We learned a lot about the work life balance out there because they have, like, just a different way of working right. Like they first of all, they had, like, apparently, saunas come from Finland. They had a sauna in their office. That first place that was crazy, man.

They just take it really seriously. It's like they make like your overall, like health and balance is as much of a priority, You know, for everyone that works there as meeting a deadline and like launching a product business in general. And I was, like, fascinating and really refreshing.


I don't know about everyone out there, but these guys would work, you know, finish up around four or five o'clock,


you finish up. Um, Natalie, you had said something about just their attention to detail in nature and like having, like, no disruptions. Yeah. I was really amazed at how not only it was a work life balance, but the balance between themselves and nature. So it when we visited our client's house, he let us do laundry over there. Awesome. At some point, it was just tell like how much they cared about it and how much they loved it. They didn't want to disrupt it at all. You know, give you stepped on it,

bury someone would be like, Hey, watch out. You're stepping on Berries. You know, it was really amazing, like that balance that they just they just exude, you know, whether whether or not it's family or just walking or just living in general,


you know, I don't know if we told you this but way. We watched about one or two hours worth of photographic footage of of nature photographs at Petrie's house. Oh, really? And I didn't know. That is. They're very passionate about that. You know, the way that they pick their houses like it's important for them. Thio, you know, find a house. It's near a body of water and, um and you know, we weren't sure if that was his Finland. We went toe. You know, Norway was kind of the same thing. Our friends were telling us that people don't really spend a lot of money on dinner going out for beers. They spend their money on investing into their house that they could entertain people and have people over and enjoy the comforts of their home.


Seems like so much better way, just like such a better way to spend your money in the way. Basically, we do, but they don't


seem toe be in this mode of acquiring stuff. You know what, Petraeus house? There wasn't a single TV.


Yeah, but, you know, it was also kind of interesting as like, in touch with nature's they were. It was also like the leading like we're in Lieu Finland on it was like one of the biggest like places for, like, wearable technology and


stuff, right? Capital of wellness


technology, wellness technology. Yeah, and I was just totally fascinating. Yeah. Didn't make sense to me at first when I heard that, but after spending time there, I'd completely understand why. Yeah, it's like they don't get caught up in, like, the the buzz all the time. You know, they're more focused on, like, overall wellness, and they somehow realized like Okay,

well, technology, while it can be distracting, can also, like, enhance, like your wellness. And, you know, with heart monitors and stuff like that, where you can begin to, like, measure your balance in life


when I found really fascinating about their product concept is that, unlike a lot of people that want to create something that you know entices of user to use it every day or multiple times a day, they seem to be quite happy with creating something that really didn't need to cause any distraction. Yeah, just kind of out of the way so that people could live. Yeah, which was


Yeah, it was funny because it's sort of a cliche to like, if you guys remember in that show Silicon Valley, like everybody at, uh What was that? TechCrunch disrupt, Disrupt? Yeah, when they gave their pitch, everybody's into the same way. Making a world a better place. It's gonna look cliche, but like, their stuff was like, maybe not making the world like as broad. Is that more like I want to make lives better, Like myself. Better your life better. Yeah,


that was pretty. Was really hard to leave


Finland. It waas Yeah, um, they also showed us what a real sauna.


Imagine a business meeting in a workshop with your client that last eight hours. And then you hop into a sauna


with him? Yeah, they had us out. Like we did work in an office, like, I think, two days or maybe three, but, uh, the other two days, we did workshops and stuff. I don't like these cabins in the woods in Finland. I don't like that Blew my mind. I couldn't believe that they have that, you know, it was just that important to them, you know,

like being in nature. And we were out there working. We're like sketching wire frames and stuff, but we're doing it in front of like, a lake. And it was just beautiful. And, um, yeah, that that first cabin wanted to really just caught me by surprise. I didn't know we were really doing this on a thing like just all of a sudden, you know? All right, guys, Five o'clock works over. We're like dinner time.

And we had dinner. It was like a family style like dinner. Everyone was just, you know, together. And then it was time for sauna. Now we saw No, they said, and they say this it sound Elena. Yeah, way learned the pronunciation, but yeah, get in there and it's quiet. It's dark and you actually don't talk much like it's like like a defrag right is a. You just kind of let it all


sink in. It's a sacred place for them. On the last day, they were telling us that some people are born and saunas. They spend. They spend most of their lives and saunas. They will have their kids and their family time and the saunas kids playing with toys and some people when they're sick, they're taken to us on, and some people for their last rites. Before they die, they are allowed to die.


And it's all Yeah. Yeah. It was much more of a part of life, like the entire life cycle than I realized that all It was really a beautiful thing. It was really cool to be in there. I didn't feel like an impostor. I felt like somebody had invited us and to experience. And like, man, it really resonated, you know, with me. And I was talking Thio Anthony and fee afterwards, and we were both just like, are all of us were just We need a song. So rejuvenate you. Yeah. Yeah.


What? You didn't even try it?


Well, I'm living vicariously through you. Probably good many


stories being in a hot sauna and then jumping into a freezing cold lake undescribable.


Yeah. I mean, I forgot to mention that sort of part of it. So they get in there and they get it just as hot as you could. Like, My skin was like burning like it felt like, you know, like when you hold your hand over a candle, I felt that, like, all over, and then you're in there for a few minutes until you literally feel like you can't take it anymore. And then everybody gets up and runs outside. And we jumped in the river and it was phrasing it, but it was invigorating. And like your endorphins, they're like going crazy.

And, uh, you know, that was work like that was us, Like being with our client and man really rubbed off like a really cool way. And, you know, I get fun size. We always say, like, work, life, balance. But I think that when we went to Finland, it was a different level of work. Life balance. Yeah,


It was also inspiring to us, too, because, you know, we've grown so much of the last two years that some of our teams became smaller. And after working there for a week with four people working on same thing, we came back with a completely new vision of how we want, you know, do projects where we, you know, can have multiple people working pretty inspiring,


right? And yeah, so that's sort of stuff we're carrying with us. Like I I started experimenting with, like, a bunch of, like, sleep abs, because that was sort of a big part of the project we were working with. It's like recovery time and sleeping stuff like that. You know, we're sitting in a workshop with these guys that were, like, What kind of physicists was Han knew he was like a bio biophysicist, you know, And like all these people that are just super smart about this stuff and I just know really deeply like the science of it just being around that and submerging in it for a straight week, like it really makes you start to think about your own,

like, health and sleep in the stuff. So I've been, like, doing like like I've tried, like, six or seven like sleep. Perhaps It's a lot of really interesting stuff about just the way that you wake up in the point in your sleep cycle in which you wake up in, like, the quality overall asleep, like, how many do you get? A full cycle, all that sort of stuff. So I kind of got into that. But other than that,

the actual, like health health kind of maps and stuff like that, which is gonna be a big thing with watch Apple watch coming out, seeing health, and now Yeah. Now health is on the health. Apple health out app is out. But another way that we have tried as as a company, a czar culture to kind of keep that work life balance. And this is something that, you know, Anthony and Natalie have this idea about fun size Friday's Do you guys want to just kind of describe, like, I don't know. How did you guys


come up with that idea? You know, I really don't remember. I think it was either Natalie and I that we were talking. And we're like, You know what? We want to create this company that that we've never been able to work at. And one of the things is just having out sometime too. Recover from the week so that you can actually enjoy the weekend, and we realize that it's more arpa. ARPA thesis was that people could do the same amount of work in four days that they could in five, and that maybe with the extra day, people were just overextending themselves. And why not just create a day where we can work on some internal things that wouldn't be able to get done otherwise or learn a new skill. I have a way to sort of just kind of have that in between day of slowing down for the weekend so that the weekend becomes a little bit more meaningful. You know, there's also this sort of recruiting and retention part of it, you know, trying to compete with budgets and compete with other agencies that offer different things that we may not be able to pay the salaries and other people pay that we're able to provide a a very different work. Life balance.


I mean, it's a big thing for me, and just because I feel like I'm just like working someplace, I get to, like, experiment with interesting ideas and collaborate with the team on ideas that I've had and they've had and and you come together and you're working here designing. But it's like without the pressure of you know, the deadline's air. You know, a day without meetings, a day without meetings exactly. And it's more about what you can do to keep yourself inspired. Yeah, right. We've been doing it since I think like this office over and now we've been instance like January of this year, and so we've been pretty much doing it since then, right?

Yeah. Yeah. So I think a lot of people would probably like Thio here. Like, how is that even possible? Like how? How can you pull this off? Like you guys have been doing this, You know, we've been very transparent with clients. Like Like we don't work friend is like, How does how does that happen? How


did we get to the point? We are where we never worked Friday. Well, I remember when we were sitting around in the back of the office deciding as a team with a way to do this, and we didn't know if it work or not, But honestly, it's We've never had an issue with it. I


know. I'm so surprised to its


I think clients actually really respected. They're like, OK, these are my boundaries. You've set the boundaries for me. And now I'm gonna work within those boundaries and and, you know, if you really think about it like our clients are people too, they probably don't want to do meetings on Friday, you know? I mean so I don't know. We just We haven't had an issue with it yet. I know, with the exception of some bigger corporate clients that have, you know, a faster moving train, you know?

But it's been a really huge thing for us culturally, and we've had a lot of really good reactions to it. At Owner camp, several people were really inspired about, you know, our ability to do that and maintain it. And


yeah, that's the thing I've been so surprised about is that like, I've kind of tried to do this with people before that, that kind of thing. But we I mean, we've been how did consistently, you know, it's sort of just like one of the century, just like, make the decision you're gonna do it and like you kind of you guys have been really good at protecting that. I think that's pretty cool. Um,


and we do it even though, like you were saying before we start recording, you know, if we work that extra day, we you know, sure, we would make more profit. There be more hours of the day to work. Yeah, but at the end of the day, it's more about building and maintaining the company culture and over


dollars and cents. Jax. I mean, you're kind of sacrificing a day and profitability. I mean, you're people are still there, you know, on Fridays. But we're not charging our clients for that time, so yeah, I think it's worth it because it just keeps people going, you know, Right? I mean, yeah.


Then we've done some really awesome things just in the, you know, write short time. We've done it so


far. Yeah. So I was gonna kind of bring that up. Like what? We've been doing it since january. So is a long time ago. But at the same time, it's once a week that we were able to actually, like, get working on stuff. So we've done a lot of stuff. Uh, what have we done? Like, what do we actually do on Fridays? Well, the podcast for one.

Yeah, we haven't always recorded on Friday, but that's always been like a day where we could focus on what do we want it to be one of the subjects And, like, do some research about also, like, equipment. Figure out howto get it up and running and everything. Uh,


Rick just launched a nihilist designed training video course on me. Jingo, which launched a couple weeks ago.


Yeah, it's pretty exciting. Yeah, I am really stoked about that man Ryan, over Imaging. Go did an amazing job with the production on that. We definitely didn't know how to do something like that other than just, like downloading and scream cats like app or something. But, man, he just really made everything look really pro. And Anthony, you helped me a ton on that, especially getting it started and just Yeah, it was really cool. So what? It is just like a if you are a designer and you know your way around Photoshopped.

But you never done, like, absent stuff. Uh, just sort of like, Here's how it's different with designing for on iPhone app. It's like the example used, but


yeah, I'm sure to check it out. Me jingo dot com If you can't spell it, you


can Finally. 200 block. Yeah, We'll post the link for sure. But that was a Friday thing. That was fruit of a Friday, um, fun size website. You know, I have been working on Yeah, Dad. Switching somebody. Law. Yeah, on you guys have been, like, dribble ing like shots as you go


people are starting to wonder for actually working on it. It's just slow


when you're one day. Yeah, but I'm really proud of the work you guys have done on Looks spectacular.


Danielle and I have been working on, you know, conference presentations. It's really just about doing something that you could build your own personal skills or help the company are, you know, Yeah, something new. Build a product. Jim's been working on a on a mobile que a product. So if you want your developer and you want to put a lot of code in your app, you can shake it and do some drawing on the screen annotation that logs of his bugs. That's called input movie.


Anyone want to check that out? You've actually, I just realized you've done You think it's Friday projects to do with Digital Project Management Summit coming up? Uh, you also used to use Friday's for your talk You did in Chicago at mobile camp. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So that was cool. Uh, and then we just been designing like aps that we think would be cool. What if you know, he really likes dogs and he's doing an app for called Fido that he's been posted some dribble shots, so that's been pretty cool. So it's like passion projects and internal projects like the like, the website, the podcast.

And we do want to get I mean, at least I d'oh, get, like, some app that we did together on get it up on the absolutely Yeah. Game. Yeah, we certainly have plenty of idea. Yeah, we definitely don't lack ideas. Yeah. And where did you What was the idea behind the whole thing? Like we did the, um He used a Friday to do design like the Southwest app. The iPhone after Southwest. Like is that already exists out there.

You didn't really like what they had, so he just redid it. And, uh, but you were talking yesterday about Natalie. You're talking yesterday about, um, just kind of just going for the clients that you you want or what guys like your dream client? Yeah, we met someone I owner camp that does this, and when he does is he uses his own time to go and just approach these companies that he thinks needs help or that he wants to work with, and he'll just come up with a cool video and just pitch it. I mean, it's it's pretty amazing


stuff. Little design screens out, and I made it pretty much, you know, idea. Thought it brings it brings to them. And if they want to talk to them, talked him, they will. If not, he'll take it to someone else. But the cool thing is that he uses me as a CEO of a company so he could do it every once. But he invest significant amount of money into doing it. 10 20 $30,000 resource ago. Do something. But that's the way he's been able to find work life balance for himself personally, you know, you know, because he's responsible for being the CEO of a company of 70 people and he's not able to design anymore. So that's how he keeps his own skills. Sharp.

What is work-life balance ?

It is not just what someone does outside of work, but what one is actually doing at work and how they are functioning within their working environment.

Yeah, work life balance. It's like, not just like what you do outside of work but like work and, like, how How are you living your life like air? You staying inspired, like, what are you actually doing at work and kind of taking control? Its like that whole, uh, the great discontent, you know, right where people have just really, like, just done the thing that they wanted to do, you know,

stuff like that. So I've always thought that the fun size Friday thing is a great way for us to, you know, kind of experience that. And I think it's really great for our clients to, because it keeps all the designers like super inspired, you know, and like what a bummer is, too, have a designer working on a product when they're super burnout. Just tired of sign. In general, it's just not


good. Well, that brings up another really good point. You know, some of our clients. Most of our clients are long term clients. 369 12 months or longer. And, you know, teams were small. And, you know, one designer will be working on something for an extended period of time. One of the things that we had to do to go back to that work life balance is find a way to rotate people in and out of projects and battle used to work at a company. And she was on one project for a year. You know what? The birds just burning out, you know, like you don't want to lose your top people because they're tired of working on the same thing for a year. Yeah, it's good for the client to toe have someone new in a breath


of fresh air. And it is, Yeah, we just did a recent rotation, and I mean, like, I was part of that. So I was I thought it was really great how that worked out And what you know, I just thought it was cool because, like, then, you know, Andre came in and he was working on the project that I was I was working on before and like he was seeing, like, Whoa, what about this? What did you ever think about this?

And I'm like, No, that's really cool. Cities like, it's a perfect example. Yeah, origi rejuvenation, like with creativity. And I sort of moved on the new stuff. That's pretty cool, too.


So another thing that we try to do is let everyone it fun sized vote on what we're gonna work on. I mean, we can't always control it, but, you know, we like to know that everyone is at least someone interested in something that we're gonna take on because it's gonna be 369 12 months of one or two people's lives to work on it. So instead of just selling something and telling a designer, this is what you're stuck on. At least we can ask people what they're interested in and try to get the right people working on the things that they're the most passionate. I don't I've never had that luxury. Any


shops that were Yeah. Hi, def Definitely have happened either. Um, yeah. So it's been mostly about work, life balance. But I think company culture is sort of like a major part of this episode as well. So it's been really need to hear just, you know, from you guys. Like, what was the idea behind it on how how we actually pulling this off? Because it's been pretty neat. I mean, like, really like with the 4 to 5 day workweek thing.

Like if you have five days versus four days, it sze not really that much effort to it, just like your milestones by one day. And I would venture to say you even like a lot more efficient during those four days because you know you have left less time, so you have, like, a little less, and it just doesn't drag out as much as I know. Like when I was working, um, for, you know, my last company And they I was working on Fridays, but it was like half of the Friday was shot because I checked out after launch anyway. Yeah, so I could just squeeze all that time in four days and then have know that I have Friday to do whatever I wanted to inspire myself.

I mean, that that's kind of, you know, a game changer for me. Yeah.


You guys find that the working Monday through Thursday actually makes the life more balance for you guys, Or do you feel like it you like? Is there a sense of rushing to get things done on Thursday?


Yeah, I think that there is sort of like, Well, it's Thursday. And if, like, I've sort of learned from you guys to kind of protect, like, the Friday thing and be really easy to like Well, I could just make it in on Friday. I could just, like, finish this one little thing up, but actually, since seem kind of how you guys sort of like we don't work on Friday. That's kind of how it goes. You know,

for clients, I've been had a little bit more sense of urgency, like Okay, it's Thursday. I really do want to keep my Friday like, open from point work. So, yeah, I do feel a little bit more of, like urgency on Thursday, but it's a good thing because then I know like Friday is totally open line. Really. Don't worry about any meetings or anything. We don't even talk about quiet work on Friday. Generally,


you know, I've seen a couple like you said, a couple people sneak in, but you know, I mean, the work is always gonna be there. It doesn't matter. He work on Friday or not. Monday morning, there's gonna be just


the same amount or this is life, you know, You gotta enjoy it along the way. I think that's one of the things that stoked about glad you guys have that priority. Um, you know, obviously, you know, profitability is something you always gotta consider. We gotta keep the lights on, keep the company running, but it's it's really cool that we've been able to keep a balance of profitability and awesome clients and keep ourselves inspired. Oh, the other thing is like learning things right. Like we've been messing around last to Freddy's or so on the picks. A thing that's like allows its like this missing link that we've been looking for for a long time that allows designers to go in and drop some things in and actually create like a kn animation or in interaction based on the gesture and based on somebody like moving their finger around that has been already helpful, right? It's been like we're actually maybe even get that into, like, a conceptual around sometime in the near future, where that could be partisan.


That's a really good example of how taking some time to learn your skill can actually help a small company grow because, yeah, we don't work on Friday. So we're losing the profit on that day, and, um, you know some other things, but oh, the other thing that is that we're only, you know, 10 12 people in size. We don't want to be much bigger. So had these new skills adding to our list of things that we can offer. Yeah, let will allow us to grow financially without growing


in size personally to its designers. Personally being you have to stay on top of you. Technology. Yeah. And what's capable? Yeah, It gives you some of, like, give me time to, like, get into this. Like, it's hard, because if you don't have, like, a Friday day like that, you have to do that stuff after work or on the weekends.

And like, you're tired, like you people need, you know, to rejuvenate on that time. So the weekend should belong to you and not to your work. You know, I definitely


agree on three things under evening and your evenings. I don't I don't know about the two of you guys, but, I mean, it seems like everyone's out of here by six or seven. And even that seems a little late for some people. But I'm glad that we're not, you know, burning the midnight oil, working on weekends and stuff like


that. I think I've ever done that one. Does that really happen? But, I mean, it's more about having a good plan, because yeah, you know, sometimes people I think I think Stew actually told me this one time that he used to respect people actually was in his talk. Do you guys remember that talk that student down at San Marco's? What's that school's Texas State? He did it talk. And he was like, I used to respect people that worked, like, late into the out, you know,

burn them in Iowa and stuff like that. He's like, Now I respect people that manage their time wisely and don't have to do that because they made your proper estimates of you know of, you know, they didn't over commit


It sucks to be in environments where you have to ask people or tell people No, you got to stay here till 11:12 p.m. Or 12 in the morning and come in on the weekend. Yeah, I think I think you're right. Like if you just If you're managed you a little bit tighter, you don't have to really worry about that stuff. And the deadlines are always gonna be there. And there's always gonna


be work, so yeah, cool. I think we could kind of kind of call it at that point. That that was That was good, guys. Thanks a lot. Um, so would be great if anybody wants that. Get back to us and tell us like what you do to keep your work life balance, like, hit us up on Twitter. Like, leave a comment on the block or something. That'd be pretty cool. Um, I did want to You just mentioned a couple of things coming up that you may or may not be interested in, but stuff that we're we've got going on right now. Anthony and Daniel were giving some presentations at the Digital Project Management Summit that says right. When is that?


Monday and Tuesday of this coming week, Huh?


So what is it the right this week? Next week? Yeah. What date is that? The sea is third today. So for the sixth and 7th October sixth and seventh, where do you know where that is? It's in Austin is gonna be at the Hilton. We'll put out. We'll put a link to the website.


Yeah, I'm not sure tickets are available, but if you're if you're running a shop or a project manager, product manager should be an exciting


event. Are you? Let's say what you're talking about


yet or no. Our talk is called getting two m v p. And it's it's kind of and it sounds really boring. But it's really interesting, because what we're trying to do is change people's perspective on what a first release of a product should be. That it's not about just doing the minimum most minimum amount you can should be the most valuable player, not the most minimum buyable


product, he said. Something in California when we're out there recently with a client said, like minimum desirable,


desirable, maximum delightful. I mean, there's just other ways of thinking about it that can help you align yourself with a good strategy. And so we're talking about some of those different frames of mind how to manage a project that is shooting for goals like that. Yeah, in a little bit about the way we work and we'll put the slides up


to okay. I was going to say if if I go, there's gonna be something that they can look at it like, See the boat? Okay, cool. That's awesome. As Anthony meant, Starr mentioned already. We're doing like we got that magical thing up. You want to check it out, be cool. We'll link that as well and also Ah, a couple of us are going to Brooklyn Beta next week. So if anyone's gonna be there, we'd love to see it, hang out and say hi.

I'm sure one of us will be wearing a fun size shirt. Yeah. Oh, actually, we're gonna make some hustle shirts, right? Get those burned up. Maybe you can if you're in Austin or something And combine. Hang out with those eat lunch and maybe we'll give you. Maybe we'll be on my podcast beyond a podcast. That would be great. Get some fresh blood in here. But that's about it. Guys, Thanks a lot for checking out this This episode this Episode nine So we got We're in the double digits next time. All right?

Whoa, whoa, whoa. Uh, yeah. So please check out the podcast on iTunes. I don't know how you're listening to right now, but if not iTunes, check that out. Check that subscribe rate. Five stars do all decent, do all the things. Oh, uh, yeah, Well,

possum feed too. Cool video while wearing Finland. A little montage. Yeah, so thanks a lot, guys. And we will see you next time. See you next time. Bye bye.

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