Smash Notes
Chris Rock Has Been Thinking About Forgiveness
Speaker 1
We live in a world where either you order shit or you deliver shit, and you really don't want to deliver shit.
Speaker 2
I'm David Marchese, and today I'm interviewing Chris Rock.
Speaker 1
Selling out arenas, it's like sex, I always say. Unless you played that arena twice, it didn't happen.
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His comedy specials in the 90s and 2000s not only made him a household name, they were touchstone cultural events full of brilliant and profane commentary on gender, race,
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and
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the biggest news stories of the day.
Speaker 3
What the f*** did Clinton do?
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More recently, Rock has reflected on his own life in his work, including his 2016 divorce and the unbelievable moment when Will Smith slapped him live on stage at the Oscars.
Speaker 1
Will Smith played Muhammad Ali in a movie. You think I auditioned for that part?
Speaker 2
Beyond standup, Rock has built a successful Hollywood career acting and directing feature films, including 2014's critically acclaimed Top Five. Now Rock is back with the movie Misty Green, which he both wrote and directed, about a struggling actress played by Rosalind Eleazar who gives a star-making performance.
Speaker 4
Hello, I would like to finish my audition if it isn't too much trouble. All right?
Speaker 1
I wanted to do a movie about Hollywood. I wanted to do a movie about the expiration dates we all have.
Speaker 2
Here's my conversation with Chris Rock. But first, a quick message. If you're not a subscriber, we have some news for you. You can now explore the Times for free without paywalls during your first month in the New York Times app. Just download the app and we hope you enjoy it. Okay, on to the interview. Ready to go? Yeah. Chris, thank you very much.
What do you got,
Speaker 1
what do you got for me, man? What do you want?
Speaker 2
So I want to start with a question about the new movie, Misty Green. About the new
Speaker 1
movie, Misty Green. Yes.
Speaker 2
Which, you know, to, to me the, the movie, it's thematically very rich, there's a lot going on, but one of the themes for me was really status. You know, who, who has it, who loses it when it comes to success, money, relationships. And I, I wanted to know, when, when do you feel insecure about your status?
Speaker 1
When do I, I mean I. I've been doing a lot of therapy the last few years, like post-COVID, and a lot of it's about not feeling insecure. A lot of it is about you're enough. You are enough, sir. But, you know, I don't ever really feel insecure about my status per se. Occasionally I'll meet people that are obviously working harder than me, and that'll make me feel insecure.
You know, Adam Sandler, Rick Rubin, like what? What are you doing? How many things are you doing right now? So that can make me a little insecure. Some people are better with their kids than me. I think I'm a good dad.
Speaker 2
You kept them off the pole.
Speaker 1
I've kept them off the pole, but they're on OnlyFans. No. sometimes you see like a loving relationship and you get like insecure. You're like, you ever been single and you see like a homeless couple? You're like, they got it.
Speaker 2
One thing that was interesting to me about the movie was that, you know, it's, it's a movie that both makes Hollywood feel very appealing because of, you know, the talent that you see and, and the love that people have for doing what they do, but also makes Hollywood seem awful. Like, like truly, truly racist, sexist, you know, sort of chips away at your soul constantly.
And, and you know what I'm talking about, right? And, and has your experience of, of Hollywood sort of inhabited both those spaces where on the one hand you're, you're obviously have had an incredible career. On the other hand, it seems like very hard not to. Kind of go through that career kind of unscathed.
Speaker 1
I mean, you're not going to get how bad Hollywood is soliloquy from me. I always say every generation laughs at their children's racism. So my kids are like, this is racist. And what I would call racist, my mother would laugh at. You know what I mean? Are there bad parts about Hollywood? Yes. But it's still better than a normal job by a lot, okay? By a ton, man.
I wouldn't change it for anything. I, you know, I've said before, I used to work at Red Lobster. I used to work at a I used to work at a home for, aut- autistic, severely autistic, mid-adults. I had, like, the night shift, and you had to, like, make the food. It was kinda like being a big brother, cause I'm, like, the oldest seven. And you make the food, sometimes you have to change a diaper or whatever of a grown kinda man.
Like, so what if I can't get a sketch on? So what if somebody's not, you know, doesn't respond to my script? I used to wipe people's asses, dude.
Speaker 2
But the question of, of compromises comes up throughout the film. There's
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compromises in everything. Right,
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so what are compromises that you've had to make in your career?
Speaker 1
I mean, honestly, I came up in cable television. I could kinda say what I want.
Speaker 3
Life is catching up to Jeff. Shit, if you live in a whole project, a new jail ain't that bad.
Speaker 1
You know what I mean? Like, honestly, there's be more, I don't know if I could do Bring the Pain today. I'd have to compromise. But in 96, I did pretty much whatever I wanted. So I haven't had to compromise myself as a stand-up. I've been able to make some weird movies. Dude, I made Pootie Tang. You know what I mean? Like, you know, I got my own things that I've directed, and I got side pro, I'm, I've been very fortunate.
Spike Lee, Eddie Murphy, you know, Denzel, all these great people kind of opened up a door, and I've been able to have a really weird, sometimes bad, But definitely, like, no one will ever say he didn't try. You know, I did a documentary about hair shows, dude. You know what I mean? Like, so I'm the last guy to complain.
Speaker 2
A second ago, you said, you know, I don't know if I'd be able to make Bring the Pain today. And that's kind of a sentiment that I see a lot. You know, people, comedians, or even just artists saying, yeah, you know, I don't know if I'd be able to make whatever it was they made, you know, 30 years ago today. And I wonder, do you really think that's true? Because I look around at comedy and the culture, I'm like, it seems pretty coarse.
Speaker 1
Here's the difference is, you're right, you know, two things can be true. I'd be able to make it. It would be huge. A matter of fact, you know what? I'll go even further. Bring the Pain would be bigger today.
Speaker 2
There you go. You know why it would
Speaker 1
be bigger today? Cause you wouldn't be able to report on it.
Speaker 2
What do you mean?
Speaker 1
You, you wouldn't be able to say it was great. The New York Times wouldn't be able to say it. It wouldn't be on Netflix. It wouldn't be on any normal thing. So I would, it would be like, like, like the Shane Gillis thing, which would actually elevate it. You know what I mean? Like, I, you know, I'm not here to, you know, the New York Times, New York Times got a weird thing with comedy.
With,
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go for it. Not even with
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comedy. It's just like, I mean, I, you know, the Times, the, the, the Journal, like, they ignore the nuance. So they like, something really cons, you know, it's like, okay, this is a manosphere conservative thing, or this is a really kinda wokey-woke thing. And all the people in the middle, they kinda ignore. I remember a couple of years ago, I don't know, five years ago, ten years ago, Bill Burr sold out Madison Square Garden.
First night he sold out Madison Square Garden. In the history of Madison Square Garden, it's probably more now, but at that point, I don't know, eight comedians had sold out Madison Square Garden. You know, and by the way, selling out arenas, it's, it's like, it's like sex, I always say.
Speaker 2
How so?
Speaker 1
Unless you've done it, unless you played that arena twice, it didn't happen. Okay? If you didn't have sex with her twice, to her, it never happened. So, and that's what playing an arena is, right? Anyway, Bill Burr plays Madison Square Garden. I wake up the next day, I wanna read the review. There's no review. There's no review. Cause Bill Burr is this guy that walks a crazy line.
Is he conservative? Maybe he's conservative. Wait a minute, he's got a black wife. Oh, he's sexist. Wait a minute, there's a lot of women here. Like, you guys are only covering it, so you don't, you're not fucking with that middle.
Speaker 2
So
Speaker 1
anyway, bring the pain because it would be actually less lauded would be bigger today. Because it would
Speaker 2
have some sort of taboo appeal to it. It would have a
Speaker 1
taboo to it, where before when I did it, I got all these accolades.
Speaker 2
Yeah, but don't you think there's something in comedy that happened, I think since Trump got elected the first time, where it seems like the comedians A lot of comedians. I'm, you know, infinitely more than about comedy than I do and about the film. But, but where comedians feel like they have to subtly or overtly signal what their politics are, like sort of wink to the audience so that the audience kind of knows where to put them, even if the place they're putting them is a guy who, you know, can see both sides.
And I, I feel like audiences are looking for it now and comedians
Speaker 1
are giving it to them. Maybe, maybe, I mean, I'm trying to decide if I'm gonna go back out now. I'm just like, do I wanna, do I, you know. Why
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wouldn't you?
Speaker 1
Do I wanna jump in this bed? I don't know. I'm, I'm loving directing, actually. I'm actually like, oh, maybe I should like do a run of pictures. But I don't know. We, we used to only talk to the best of the best. We used to only talk to the person singing. We used to not even talk to the producer. Now everybody's gotta say something, and, you know, some of it's boring.
A lot of it's boring.
Speaker 2
Can I just ask now a question about Rosalind Elazar and her performance in Misty Green? Really, I, you know, I knew her work from Slow Horses, that's where I'd seen her before, but it, kind of an incredible performance. You realize she can sing amazingly. The different emotional levels she's able to bring to the, to the character, but can you talk about what she brought to Misty that wasn't in the script initially?
Speaker 1
She just brought a humanity to it. I mean, here's what I say when I'm directing. It's my movie, it's your part. You know what I mean? And it was hers, man. She, you know what, put it this way, I, I met Rosalind about a month ago. I never, but For the months we're shooting Misty, there was only Misty. You know what I mean? So she was Misty when she came in on the audition.
She was Misty through the whole, the whole filming process. She never, she never asked me one question that didn't have to do with character. So she's, we will work again.
Speaker 2
And there's a scene in the film where her character, this is not a spoiler at all, but there's a scene in the film where her character is performing a kind of a nightclub. And she, like she just is an incredible singer also, which is something that you didn't realize up to that point in the movie. And when I saw that, I was thinking about how in the performing arts, The amount of just pure talent that's out there that is not, you know, these people are not necessarily household names.
They're just trying to make a living. It's really staggering to think about. There's
Speaker 1
a lot of talent. There's a lot of talent.
Speaker 2
And do you feel like you understand who makes it and who doesn't? Like, talent must have so little to do with it, ultimately.
Speaker 1
It's not that it has so little to do with it. I mean, there's a lot that goes into it. I mean, right place, right time. Hey, what kind of friend are you? Which goes a long, long way. Like, even now, if I look over my career, you know, probably half of my gigs are just somebody going, oh, he's cool. You know what I mean? Like, you gotta, you gotta, you gotta be a good friend.
You have to be considerate. You have to ask people how they're doing. It, there's all these other parts. I mean, I know myself, and a lot of artists were just so fucking self-centered. So, I don't know, to answer your question, yes, there's a lot of talent out there, and a lot of it's just right time, right place. And, yeah, some of it just has no rhyme or reason.
I mean, sometimes you're like on the subway, and you see a guy playing the fucking violin, like, you know what I mean? Like they should be at the Met or something. You're like, what the fuck?
Speaker 2
who's someone who you worked with or whose work you know that you thought was incredibly talented, but whether because, like, maybe Misty, they were self-destructive, or they just never got a break?
Speaker 1
I can't say that. I wish I could say, I'd say that off camera. There's a bunch of people. The self-destructive thing. That self-destructive thing is a really sad thing.
Speaker 2
Or just someone who's, who's also level of success did not.
Speaker 1
The thing about self-destructive too, it's like, people don't realize, people go, okay, the year's 365 days, right? And if I wanna party, who cares? If I, what I'm trying to say is, a self-destructive person is basically a person that makes six bad decisions a year. You know what I mean? It seems like a little, you know what I mean? That's
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359 days
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of, of being fine. But those six bad decisions a year will fuck up your whole life. So. You know.
Speaker 2
How many bad decisions a year do you have? I don't know.
Speaker 1
I don't know. I mean, you know, show business, it's like the Olympics. And in the Olympics, the difference between first and last can be less than a second sometimes. You know? Less than a second. So.
Speaker 2
I want to ask something about the movie, another thematic question about the movie.
Speaker 1
Go ahead, Misty Green, in theaters, 8 24.
Speaker 2
Do you think that there were ideas that you had about women or, or men and women that you had to examine or think through in order to credibly create the character of, of Misty Green? Because I, and I ask because, you know, in a lot of your comedy, you, you make distinctions between men and women. And you're, and you're, and, but the distinctions, I think.
In my reading, they're, they're, they're coming from like the male point of view. And Misty Green is so much about
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one
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woman's story. Was it hard for you or did it take any like excavation to, to be able to do what you wanted to do with the character?
Speaker 1
I mean, well, those, stark, you know, saying there's stark differences between men and women is a perfect device for comedy. It doesn't work in a drama. I'll say this, part of, you know, all this therapy and all this stuff, it's developing an empathy, and really being able to get inside of another character. So, You know, last four or five years, I'm like, I'm a way more empathetic person.
Misty, it also helps that my, like, my daughters are like grownups, kinda. So I've experienced, I really watch women, you know, around my house, their friends, and my daughters just, you know, they don't, they don't forgive my sins, but they give me an education that I wouldn't normally have.
Speaker 2
I wanna go back to, directing. You know, you
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said, you
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said, you said, you know, you're into directing now and like to do more of it. It was what, 12 years between movies you directed, between, Take Five and, and Misty Green? Top
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Five.
Speaker 2
Top Five, I'm sorry. Top Five,
Speaker 1
film some of it here. and Misty Green is good. What took so
Speaker 2
long?
Speaker 1
What took so long? life. COVID, I got divorced, which means, which meant I had to make, like, real money. maybe I had some other scripts that just didn't, you know, the market didn't respond to. a lot, you know, just a lot of stuff. I did other movies, and it's not like I was sitting around for that time, but, you know, COVID was like, I don't know, you gotta, it's like a time to like, okay, what am I doing with my life? Well, you know, and other shit I don't feel like talking about.
I had a lot of, I had a lot of stuff going
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on.
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did
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you, did you come up with answers to the what should I be doing with my life questions that COVID?
Speaker 1
I should be directing small movies, character-driven pieces. It's kinda, I, I can do that. maybe I'm not in the movie as much as I used to, used to be. so I've been writing a lot more. She working on a book, working on a book of essays. We'll see where that goes.
Speaker 2
but are, are any of those things that you don't want to talk about? Can we talk about
Speaker 1
them? What do you want to talk about? What do you want to talk about? I mean, I'm, I'm a big boy. I can answer stuff coolly or not answer them, whatever. what do you want to know, man?
Speaker 2
Is there more to say about the slap than what you said in the last special?
Speaker 1
I'm good, man. That was so long ago. Not
Speaker 2
that long ago. I
Speaker 1
wish everyone well. I wish everyone well. I've moved on with my life.
Speaker 2
Do you forgive what happened?
Speaker 1
And I'm, I'm, I'm not gonna, like, get into clickbait things. Like, I'm not, I don't think I'm in beef. I don't, you know what I mean? There's no, you know, I'm done, dude. I'm done.
Speaker 2
but I know I keep doing this, but let's keep go, let's go back to the movie again. Cause there's thematic things in the movie that I think are interesting to, to dig into. But it was, I was slightly surprised to hear you say that, you know, you're not, you don't really have anything that bad to say about Hollywood, given, given the content of the film, which to me was really about, like, on one level, just how hard and hurtful to an artist's soul Hollywood can be.
But what for you were the main ideas and themes that you were interested in exploring? In Misty Green.
Speaker 1
I mean, I'm really into expiration dates. I have a lot of friends who are in their fifties or whatever, and there's this thing, everybody tells you you can do art forever, you know what I mean? And that's just not true. And a lot of show business has, like, you gotta reach certain plateaus by a certain time, or else you're gonna be in trouble.
So, yeah, Misty is, you know, turning 40, and it's, it's a kind, there's a little bit of an expiration date happening here. But yeah, I wanted to do a movie about Hollywood. I wanted to do a movie about the expiration dates we all have. I wanted to do a movie about LA, and it is like this tale of two cities. It is Sunshine and palm trees, but we're constantly walking over homeless people.
You know what I mean? Like the most liberal people in the world. This place that, you know, the fact that Rodeo Drive and Skid Row are in the same city, probably eight, ten miles apart. So I, you know, in a lot of ways, America's like that. some, you know, very rich, very poor. It's like we're, we live in a world where either you order shit or you deliver shit.
And you really don't want to deliver shit, you know.
Speaker 2
What should we, what should our response to that disparity be? Like when you, when you experience the inequality disparity, disparity that you're describing, like what, do you think you should Act differently or do something about it.
Speaker 1
So the, the title, the running title of the book I'm writing right now, it's called When the Homeless Know Your Name. Cause when the homeless know your name, it's a whole nother, like, you feel that shit, dude. You
Speaker 2
mean because you're famous?
Speaker 1
Cause you're famous, but, but they know your fucking name, dude. So when somebody asks you for money on the street, they just ask you for money. When they ask me, they say, yo, Chris. So that shit, you know, I don't know what I should do. You know, first of all, who the hell carries cash anymore for the most part, right? you know, you give what you can, you, you give to this charity, that charity, what you can.
Speaker 2
I want to dig into that feeling a little bit more. The, when the homeless know your name, hey, Chris, what do, what do you do with that feeling? What does it make you feel?
Speaker 1
I mean, put it this way. I'm usually up now. I get up around seven. I'm out of my, I'm literally getting coffee by about 7:15. I go to my supermarket, get some fruit, right? And inevitably, there's always like a bunch of guys packing, like, setting up for the day. And I don't know, you ever see like 12 Years a Slave or any slave movie with a free slave, and the slaves look at the, you know, at Chiwetel, and he's like, and he's dressed all cool, and he's got his hat, and they're just looking at him like, how the fuck did this happen? We're the same.
That's me at the supermarket in the morning. They're looking at me, they're not even looking at me as a famous person, it's like, who's this brother buying mango at fucking Seven twenty five in the morning. Cause, you know, if you're in Soho, if you're in, you know, just, there's no black dudes living down there. I don't even know what I'm doing.
Am I answering your question? Yeah,
Speaker 2
you're, you're, you see behind the veil. Yeah, and it's
Speaker 1
like, yeah. And they're looking at me, I'm looking at them, cause I know I could be that. I know if I don't walk in a comedy club in eighty four or eighty three, I probably have a normal job. I'm not, you know, I probably have a normal job. Do you, do you have, I have a lovely life, by the way. I don't, I'm not one of these guys that's, if I didn't find comedy, I'd be in jail.
No, I'd work for Amazon or something and I'd have a wife and some kids and I'd be okay.
Speaker 2
It's interesting that you're writing this book because I remember Probably, it was probably, I think it was pre-pandemic, maybe right before the pandemic, there was an announcement that you were working on a book
Speaker 1
about
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interracial relationships. And you even, I think on Facebook or maybe had a website where you were asking people to send in
Speaker 1
stories. And what
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happened there?
Speaker 1
That
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book never showed up.
Speaker 1
And I'm not trying to be like a gangster or anything. I didn't like, there were just, just me and the publisher. Because when you're writing something about race, especially in this era of everybody taking everything out of context, I just didn't feel like everything I was saying to the publisher, I was getting, you know, they were listening to everything I said.
And I was like, I don't, I don't. I don't trust these people I'm working with. I gave the money back.
Speaker 2
Oh, really?
Speaker 1
Yeah.
Speaker 2
How much was that that you gave back?
Speaker 1
It was a significant sum, more than I'm making today.
Speaker 2
Yeah. Yeah.
Speaker 1
More than I'm making for this interview.
Speaker 2
I'll make the check out later. The, the, do, do you think that taking things out of context is like an, an ongoing problem for, or having things taken out of context is an ongoing problem for artists and, and comedians now? Because it feels like there's so much discussion about, you know, whether somebody said something offensive or who's allowed to make what, what joke.
And, and, I just feel like I never know how, how real that is.
Speaker 1
It's, I mean, I hate to say it, it's just bullshit, dude. It's like, it's just nerd bullies. It's like, you know how easy it is to go, hey, what, what did you mean by that? It's so easy to go, what did you mean by that? Before you elect to be angry at something. It is so easy to ask somebody, hey man, could you not say that thing? I mean, I didn't, I just felt a certain way when you said that.
And then if you're ignored, yes, reply with anger. But it is so easy to pause and just go, hey, hey man, what, what, did you mean? It's so easy. So, I don't know, I don't know who I was having this argument with. And people are like, oh, people are so sensitive. I'm like, no, they're not sensitive, they're mean. And they can't stop being mean.
They can't, oh, this is my opportunity to be mean.
Speaker 2
So you think it's all about meanness?
Speaker 1
I'm just saying meanness is, is, is the new kale. It, it is on the platter. Okay? It's like, do you got any mean here?
Speaker 2
I think it's gonna make me, order
Speaker 1
that mean real quick.
Speaker 2
I think it's gonna make meanness seem less cool than comparing it to the new kale. It's the
Speaker 1
new kale, man. Like, yeah, it's so easy to go, okay, what, what, I'm sorry, what, what, what did you say? It's so easy, like, the fuck, I'm no genius. I like, like, what did, what did that take?
Speaker 2
When, when is offense justified?
Speaker 1
I mean, people are entitled to their feelings, don't get me wrong. I mean, I'm enti, we're all entitled to our feelings. We're all entitled to be offended. Don't get me wrong. so don't, you know, take me out of context. context does matter, though. But people, a lot of people are ignoring context cause it prevents them from being mean.
Speaker 2
This morning when you came in, you said, I don't think I've been here since I filmed, in top five, there's a scene in the, in the time center. And you said with the, with the canceled all-stars, Scott Rudin
Speaker 1
and Charlie Rose.
Speaker 2
And I listened to a, a podcast interview you did with, David Spade and Dana Carvey, I think earlier this year. And you used the phrase, the canceled all-stars in that Carvey Spade interview to talk about, I think Louis CK and maybe Kanye, all, all people that you're, but, but how
Speaker 1
do you,
Speaker 2
like, how do you think about the question of, like, this actually relates to the movie in a way too, but the questions of forgiveness and, and who gets forgiven and, and why.
Speaker 1
public
Speaker 2
figures I'm talking about.
Speaker 1
Public figures. hey man, I'm black. What does, what does that mean? When you're black, white people believe every accusation is a conviction. I grew up 619 Decatur Street, between Howard and Saratoga. If you go on your phone and punch up Roger Logan, exonerated, a guy named Roger Logan, who I grew up with, who was very, he was one of my best friend's brothers, went to jail for 19 years for a murder he didn't commit.
And here's the weird thing.
Speaker 2
Yeah.
Speaker 1
His brother used to plead with me to pay for a lawyer. From Roger, and I never did it. I always had like a no lawyer thing, cause a lawyer's like an open-ended thing. Like, I'll pay your mortgage, I'll, whatever. I'll, there's a bunch of shit I've paid for, education, all sorts of shit. I always stay out of lawyers cause it's so open-ended.
And I'm, I'm, it still fucks with me. I was like, I had the means to help him, and I didn't. And I don't know if we could've got him out or not, but still. so all that to say is, I'm black. Black men get accused of shit they didn't do all the time. Every day, in the paper, we let black men out of jail. We go, whoops! that black guy just did 30 years, too bad.
So, I don't know, to answer your question, when there's a convict, you know, like, all this rumor shit. You know, I'm not, hey, hopefully I don't get accused of anything, but you know what I mean? Like, I'm handling it from a real place, you know? This shit's real when people get accused of things, and you better be real sure they did it, you know? Am I making sense? You're making
Speaker 2
sense. You know, I think, I think you're, you're describing a kind of, lived empathy that you, that you
Speaker 1
feel. And I'll go even further. My grandfather, Alan Rock, he killed a man. you can look this up. I don't know if it's, you know, maybe Amsterdam News or something. I don't, you know, legend has it he thought the guy was sleeping with my grandmother. The guy lived next door. He told the guy, if you take another step in my yard, I'm gonna shoot you.
The guy took one step and my grandfather blew him away, right? My grandfather went to jail, and my grandfather was a preacher. And he gets out of jail. I don't know, if he gets out of jail on a Wednesday, by Friday he was picking us up from school. And within a year or two years, he was the reverend of that church again. So, A, if you accuse somebody- Wait, he was
Speaker 2
the reverend when he shot the guy?
Speaker 1
Yeah.
Speaker 2
Whoa.
Speaker 1
So, my brother shot a guy, my brother Charles, his government name is Charles, but he's a five percenter, his name's Shabazz. So I say that all to say, my grandfather went to jail, he got out of jail, he did his time. So, A, if you're gonna accuse somebody, make sure they did it. And B, when people do things, there's a fucking time limit.
In the real world, not in the I'm a spoiled motherfucker and I went to private school and no, you know. Yeah, in your world you just shun people, but in the real world we, we kinda have to live with each other, you know? So, yeah, I mean, yeah, all that to say, it's, it's up to the victims to forgive, I guess. And two things can be true. Like my brother shot a guy, right? I love my brother.
Do I think that, just because I love my brother, does that mean I think the person should have gotten shot? No. the last thing I'll say to
Speaker 2
you,
Speaker 1
when I was a kid, you know, I don't know, two, three times I was in, police lineups. You know, you, you know, Howard Avenue. Stay away from Howard Avenue, right? Howard and Decatur, right? And you're, you're with your friends, me, Darren, Boz, whatever, right?
Speaker 2
In Bed-Stuy.
Speaker 1
In Bed-Stuy, and you're minding your business, and you get swooped up. And now you're in a police lineup. And you've seen enough fucking cop movies to know that behind that window is probably a person, probably a woman, could be a man, but probably a woman, right? And if they point at you, your whole life's over. Now, here's, here's what's, what's fucked up.
Like, and you guys, you guys are like the media, you're supposed to be in charge of the nuance of it all. Okay, I'm Chris. Chris has been on the stoop for fucking four hours. Chris didn't rob this woman, right? If she points at me, She's wrong. She's, but she's not lying. What do you mean she's not lying? You didn't do anything. She's traumatized.
And when you're traumatized, you try to wrap shit up. You know, and for whatever reason, I grew up, you know, my dad drove a newspaper truck, and I've been reading the paper since I was a kid. The news has taken all nuance out of it. Everything's black and white. Everything's black and white, man.
Speaker 2
What you were talking about just now with your, your family story, that it, I, it seemed like that was really coming from a lot of personal empathy, but how, how, how did you, it's two questions. One, how does one consciously learn to be more empathetic? And then is being more empathetic good for a comedian?
Speaker 1
I, I guess it has to be, it better be. Or I'm in trouble.
Speaker 2
Yeah.
Speaker 1
I don't know if I've learned to be, but I, I got, a friend of mine told me I had Asperger's a few years back, and I got it checked out. It wasn't Asperger's, but it was a thing called NVLD, nonverbal learning disorder. So, you know, it, it, it, it, it, it requires its own level of therapy. It's,
Speaker 2
Yeah, how does, what are the effects of that?
Speaker 1
The effects are, I'm really bad with reading nonverbal signals. Most communication is nonverbal. I catastrophize. I, I have black and white thinking, both things that are great for being a comedian.
Speaker 2
I was gonna say, yeah.
Speaker 1
But bad in personal life, in personal life and real relationships. So, so I've been learning. Like I have to see a woman once a week and go for my weekend. And we'll see, well, you know what, Misty Green would be the first piece of art that I've done since my diagnosis, my first real piece of art.
Speaker 2
But wait, you said earlier, part of what you're talking about in therapy is feeling like you're, you're enough. like, when do you, do you, you have like self-esteem questions or? I mean,
Speaker 1
all artists have self-esteem questions. You know, all, especially the good ones. I hope, maybe I'm good. knock on steel. You know, most artists are, what is it? It's a egomaniac with an inferiority complex. Yes, and I would absolutely fall into that. I am great. I hope they notice. You know what I mean? Like, so, yeah, I could, I can feel that way.
Speaker 2
But so, you know, that, I think also
Speaker 1
Eddie Murphy makes me feel like,
Speaker 2
well, of course,
Speaker 1
still in the presence of Eddie Murphy, I can get a little like insecure.
Speaker 2
Yeah. I, you know, I, he was on this show about maybe two years ago. And just even in his stillest moments, just the, the charisma and the like comedic ingenuity that just flows from that guy. It's, it's like, yeah, there's a reason he's Eddie Murphy.
Speaker 1
Yeah. Also, you know, not to name drop, like one of my biggest regrets in life is, I could never relax around Prince. And he kind of wanted to be friends. You know what I mean? Like, like calling me and whatever and hanging out. I couldn't not be like, oh shit, Prince is drinking iced tea. You know?
Speaker 2
Was he normal with you? Did you feel like you ever got to a place where he's just being a guy?
Speaker 1
I think it was normal. I think it was, yeah, I think it was, it was really normal. I mean, he's a normal rock star. You know what I mean? Like that, that, those degrees of normal are so different than your, you know what I mean?
Speaker 2
There's a, there's a great Prince story in, It's in Bono's, I think it's in Bono's memoir, where he says he's in some club, and like Prince comes in, and you know, makes his, his exit by like, walking across the tables out of the club, but out of the corner of Bono's eye, he could see that some of Prince's handlers were like holding the bottom of the table to make sure that he wasn't gonna fall.
So maintain the illusion.
Speaker 1
Maintain the illusion. I remember, I might have told this story before, I'm at Prince's house, I'm in Minneapolis, I'd just done some shows, he had a party for me after at Paisley Park, and it's like, whatever. He's playing, he's, I'm literally in the vault, okay? The vault is like a big, the vault was as big as this room, right? And he's playing me new music, and there's lots of people there, lots of people, men and women, whatever, right? And his wife called, I think he's married to Mai Tai at the time, and he was like, everybody, everybody, be quiet.
Be quiet. I gotta, I gotta, I gotta make that call. I guess he called her. He said, be quiet. So it's like, whatever, 100 people, 200 people. My tie called. It's him picking up the phone. Hey, nothing. No, I'm just chilling. Yeah, I probably go to bed a couple of hours. Love you too.
Speaker 2
Even Prince. And then
Speaker 1
the party started right, then it was like, get off. You know, it's like right away.
Speaker 2
Even Prince has to make that call. Even,
Speaker 1
even Prince,
Speaker 2
yeah,
Speaker 1
had the check in.
Speaker 2
Do you think about what you, you want the rest of your career to look like? Because I, I know you, you said that you wanna direct more films, but, you know, you also talked about the idea of, you know, like a, an expiration date, you know, and I, I really think it's hard for comedian, it can be hard for comedians to get older.
Speaker 1
It can be definitely hard for comedians to get older.
Speaker 2
It's hard for, for them to stay as edgy in the same ways. They're thinking. Nobody
Speaker 1
stays edgy. You become the establishment. You just, you know, there, there comes early in your career, it's your performance, it's whatever you're doing, but it's also the promise of who you are. So the public's like investing in this thing, like the stock. but later on, you know, you're like LeBron. You're like, it's all like, it's all results.
And we'll give you a one year deal as long as you play like LeBron. You know what I mean? Like, so right now, I, I got a deal with the audience where it's like, if it's good, we'll see it, Chris. I don't know. I mean, I've seen careers people change and I, I mean, Steve Martin's the king. Of like reinvention.
Speaker 2
I just, you know, hearing you mention Steve Martin, again, it spurs an idea for me about maybe changes in comedy, where if you, if you listen to a Steve Martin album or you watch old footage of him, because of the style he, of comedy he's doing, which is so sort of absurdist and, and whimsical, you're, you're never asking yourself, does he really believe that? But now I think there's really, it's almost like a, a litmus test where audiences are asking whether they're saying it explicitly or not.
Like, does the comedian really believe what they're saying? Do you have, when you're on stage telling jokes about, about real life things, about, you know, things in the news or, or cultural things, are we supposed to understand that you believe what you're saying or are you just saying what you need to say to, to make the bit work?
Speaker 1
I mean,
Speaker 2
like where, is there a distinction there that matters?
Speaker 1
I mean, jokes tend to work better when there's some truth in them. You know, when they, you know, when you're not just making up stuff. I think the audience can tell who's fake.
Speaker 2
Yeah.
Speaker 1
You know, I, I, I just, they can tell. You know, they can tell if you're married, they can tell if you got kids, they, they can tell if you worked, they can tell. You can't fake anything. The thing about comedians, there, there's no mystique. You are who you are. You know what I mean? There's no, there's no Ziggy Stardust of comedians. You know what I mean? Like, you just kinda are who you are.
so, you know, I think, and they're, and either, you know, they're rolling with you or not.
Speaker 2
Do you think you are who you are in your film work?
Speaker 1
What does
Speaker 2
Misty say about you, David? Sometimes I am
Speaker 1
what I am in my film work. I think Misty is a good barometer of me right now. like anything I write, I'm, I'm Misty. You know what I mean? Like, I'm like every character in the movie I've been on some level.
Speaker 2
Hopefully not the Adam Driver character. He's like a guy who procures, procures prostitutes for Saudi princes. There is
Speaker 1
nothing different between the Adam Driver character in my movie and the Jack Lemmon character in the apartment.
Speaker 2
Yeah.
Speaker 1
It's just an outfit and some hairstyle.
Speaker 2
Yeah, and the drugs.
Speaker 1
Like, like Jack, what the fuck? Alcohol's the biggest drug in the world. So what are you talking about? See, you are leaving out your nuance. It's true,
Speaker 2
it's true. You
Speaker 1
literally are making my point in front of me. You conveniently made yourself stupid to make a point.
Speaker 2
Well, I never conveniently made myself stupid.
Speaker 1
I just
Speaker 2
am, I
Speaker 1
just
Speaker 2
am. It hurts you that
Speaker 1
Jack Lemmon was basically the same character. And you have this fucking love for the apartment, which is deserved. It's one of the best movies ever. But that's what he was. He was a fucking pimp.
Speaker 2
Yeah, yeah. I guess you're right. I don't know where to go from that.
Speaker 1
Like Jack Lemmon is a pimp, a P I M P in the apartment. He's a lovable pimp. He's a charming pimp,
Speaker 2
but a pimp nonetheless. He's a
Speaker 1
pimp nonetheless.
Speaker 2
in so many ways we all are.
Speaker 1
Or hoes. Mostly hoes. But,
Speaker 2
Chris, I, you know, I really appreciate you taking all the time to talk with me today.
Speaker 1
Call me in three weeks. Hey! Is this the one where they, they do a follow up?
Speaker 2
Yeah, if that's okay.
Speaker 1
Yeah, yeah, okay, I do. I'll play by the rules.
Speaker 2
Starting now. Okay. Thank you very much.
Speaker 1
Thank you.
Speaker 2
On the interview, we talked to our guest twice. So a couple weeks later, I spoke with Rock again, and he shared his thoughts on the so-called woke 1.0 era. Chris, thank you for taking the time to speak with me again. I appreciate it.
Speaker 1
Sure.
Speaker 2
and I, I might sort of pinball around a little bit, cause I got a lot of stuff I want to ask you about. You know, before we, we spoke initially, I had asked if you could send over the names of some films that were kind of influential on, on Misty Green. And you sent over a list that, included Cabaret, of course, the great Bob Fosse film, Bad Lieutenant, the Abel Ferrara movie, Clute, the great, Jane Fonda performance in that.
Can, can you tell me a little bit about what those films in particular, how they helped you shape your vision for your movie?
Speaker 1
I mean. There's a great line in, Husbands and Wives.
Speaker 2
The Woody Allen film.
Speaker 1
Yeah, Woody, who's playing a professor, he's playing a writing professor, and he's, the line is something to do with, you can't teach people to write. All you can do is expose them to great writing and hope they pick up on it, you know? And it's just kind of the same thing with film, you know? You can't teach a person really to make a good movie.
You just gotta show them some good movies and hope that they, they run with it. all of those movies, especially the Fosse stuff, you know, like, I mean, I said Cabaret, and Misty Green is Like, what's the, what's the last movie, what's her name? Sally Bowles. Yeah, there's a lot of Sally Bowles in that, Rudin, told me to watch Cabaret. but also there's a lot of Lenny in Misty Green.
Yeah, Bob
Speaker 2
Fosse's Lenny Bruce biopic, yeah, starring Dustin Hoffman.
Speaker 1
Yeah, with Dustin Hoffman, like, there's a lot of Lenny in Misty Green, you know? all I can say is I love those movies, and, you know, if you love them enough, you know, if they feed, my mother would always say, if you feed a kid long enough, he starts to look like you. You know? And if you love movies hard enough, you'll eventually make that kind of movie.
You know what I mean?
Speaker 2
Wait, did Fosse direct Star 80?
Speaker 1
yeah, Star, it's a lot, Star 80 is my go-to. Yeah,
Speaker 2
that also has some, like just in terms of an LA Hollywood movie.
Speaker 1
Star 80, yes, I'm forgetting Star 80. Yeah, it's a lot of, how could I forget Star 80? It's, it's so Star 80. so, yeah, the Fosse stuff, more than anything, I would say, is, has been an influence.
Speaker 2
There's a, a line in the movie that I wanted to ask you about, which is, it's sort of just a, it's, it's said almost, offhand in the film, but it's actually kind of a heavy line where, I think it's, it's the character that you play in the film says to Misty, true love starts with forgiveness.
Speaker 1
Yes. Is,
Speaker 2
is that, is that your experience of forgiveness?
Speaker 1
Well, okay, I think, yeah, you don't, it's, put it this way, you don't really realize if you love somebody until you have to forgive them. I can enjoy myself with just about anybody, you know? I really can, you know? I, I'd absolutely a thousand percent can. It's like, you wanna go see Bruno Mars? It's hard to have a bad time if you're a decent person.
It's when somebody tests you, when somebody betrays you, when somebody lets you down, and you still wanna be around them. And maybe you see, maybe you see, what they were being faced with. That's now, you know, and if you elect to proceed, now that's love. I have a friend that's gonna be nameless that, you know, might've gotten canceled or whatever, right? And another friend of mine was like, well, how can you be friends with that person? And I was like, well, if you're only friends with your friends when they're good, they're not your friends, you know? If you got a bunch of people that are only gonna be there when you're good, you have no friends, okay? And that doesn't
mean, you know, condoning, you know, abusive behavior, cause you can reprimand your friends. You can go up to one of your friends and go, hey, motherfucker, what are you doing? that's also part of friendship. So,
Speaker 2
But we all have a line, right? Just, there.
Speaker 1
We all, I mean, you, you and I live in different worlds, dude. I got friends that are in jail. I got friends that are, are drugged out. I don't live like you.
Speaker 2
You, you don't know that, that, that.
Speaker 1
I can tell. I can listen, I can totally tell.
Speaker 2
I mean, you happen to be right, but.
Speaker 1
By the way, I'm not, I'm not being dismissive of you. I'm just saying, you just, you know, I've had to, you know, I've had to, you know, my friends have tested me more than yours. And maybe I've tested them, who knows, you know? but, you know, I don't know, I'm, I, I'm not religious, but I'm, you know, I'm a Christian, and God forgives. That's what it's all about.
The problem with, you know, quote unquote wokeness, And don't get me wrong, it is great that marginalized people, have a voice. It is great to advocate for, anybody that feels marginalized. This is great. But the problem with wokeness is we're in the Old Testament right now, okay? And the Old Testament has no forgiveness. The Old Testament didn't work, so they had to write a remix called the New Testament.
Speaker 2
There's been this discussion lately about how the woke 1.0 era, which I think refers to sort of the immediate post George Floyd era was, you know, crazy. People say, you know, woke 1.0 was, was crazy and like, you know, AOC distancing herself from that and, and other, democratic politicians doing the same thing. And, and I just wonder, do, like, do you see that moment in time as just, like that was just a crazy moment in time or was there anything redeeming about it?
Speaker 1
I, I ju, I think I just answered it, you know. again, it's great to help those that need help. That is an amazing, you know, we need more of that. the problem is, is when you institutionalize it, you know, that's the, the problem, you know. So my half a joke, the Salem witch hunts. I'm sure, you know, the first three witches they caught were actually fucking witches.
But then you open up a witch office and now you gotta start lying. Now you gotta fucking make shit up, cause you got overhead.
Speaker 2
You have to justify paying the rich hunters.
Speaker 1
Yeah, you gotta justify the rich hunters' fucking pensions and shit. So, yeah, man, it's all good. I'm glad. I'm glad that all of this stuff happened. It needed to happen, you know?
Speaker 2
And
Speaker 1
because it happened, maybe I've heard some voices that I probably wouldn't have heard otherwise.
Speaker 2
Let me, let me switch gears and ask a, a comedy question, if that's okay. Sure.
Speaker 1
Before you even say, cause I keep saying how bad my friends are. I have some amazing friends too. I have some genius friends. Who are? I have some of the most, unproblematic, most, progressive, most, some of the greatest artists that have ever lived. Some that you know of and don't are my friends. So. All right. On the
Speaker 2
record, some of Chris, Chris Rock's friends are perfectly fine people. Just,
Speaker 1
perfect, perfectly fine people.
Speaker 2
all right. So, you know, one thing I always wanted to ask, a great comedian is, do, do you think you understand what the purpose of laughter is? Like, why, why, why do we laugh at stuff? Why do we need comedy?
Speaker 1
I never thought about it that hard. Here's what I do know.
Speaker 2
Yeah.
Speaker 1
The greatest feelings in life are sex and laughter. And we break up with people that we have great sex with all the time. We don't break up with anybody that makes us laugh. Okay? We try, we figure that shit out if somebody makes us laugh. And the ability to laugh at oneself is probably the highest form of intelligence. And the inability to laugh at oneself is a sure sign you're dealing with an idiot.
Speaker 2
Chris, what, just either professionally or personally, like what keeps you up at night right now?
Speaker 1
What do you mean?
Speaker 2
Like what do you go to bed worrying about?
Speaker 1
I don't worry about anything. I mean.
Speaker 2
Everyone worries about something.
Speaker 1
I'm not worried about nothing, dude. I worry about my kids. That there, you know, you know, your kids, especially my oldest doesn't live with me. so I worry about my kids, but the world, the world is the world, dude. The world is exactly what it wants to be. it's sad where it's sad, it's happy where it's happy. but this is what people want.
Speaker 2
Wait, what do you mean this is what people want?
Speaker 1
This is what people want. People have the America they want. You know, and if they want to change it, we'll see.
Speaker 2
Do you like it? Is it the America you want?
Speaker 1
you know, no. It's, you know, I'm, I've been here a while. I have a long sample size. You know, Martin Luther King was shot in 1968. Black people pretty much live where black people lived in 1968, especially in New York City. We're kind, you know, maybe a neighborhood or two is gentrified that wasn't. Maybe Beyonce has more points on her deal than Aretha Franklin, but that is, for the most part, you know, the real, real, real, real, real change, you know, people are nicer, people, you know, blatant disrespect in the streets doesn't happen like it did in 1968.
But, you know, the distribution of wealth, the, the access to education, the access to healthcare is pretty much where it was when Dr. King got shot. and I could say that about other places in the world, too.
Speaker 2
And let me try and ask the hopefully more,
Speaker 1
You know, and somehow I got out of it.
Speaker 2
Yeah.
Speaker 1
But, you know, Louis Armstrong was the most famous singer in the world in the thirties and forties. So black entertainers have always, you know, kind of gotten off the Titanic before everybody else.
Speaker 2
And let me try and end with, what, is intended to be a, a sort of a more hopeful ending. It's a flip side to the what.
Speaker 1
Hey, Misty Green, October ninth, sexy movie.
Speaker 2
Let me ask a question. It's a flip side. Eight
Speaker 1
twenty four. Those guys are great. No impression there.
Speaker 2
Wait, let me ask the question. You know, I just asked like sort of what keeps you up at night. What, what gets you up in the morning? What are you most excited about?
Speaker 1
I'm, you know, it's weird. I'm excited every morning. It's my favorite time of the day. It's my favorite time to get up and take my walk and get my fruit and, you know, listen to the news a little bit. I, you know, cause every day can be great. You never know what's going to happen. Even, even when you know what's going to happen, you don't know what's going to happen.
So I wake up pretty happy, man. I wake up pretty optimistic on most days. And I'm very fortunate. I'm not going to sit here and act like my experience is everybody's.
Speaker 2
I, I really appreciate you taking all the time to, to speak with me, Chris. And I, I enjoyed it a lot. So I especially enjoyed it when you pushed back at me. So thank you for that.
Speaker 1
Oh man, this is, that's, that's always where the good stuff is. I'll, I'll leave you on this. Like a friend of mine, and I hope I didn't tell you this. A friend of mine called me up. She was, working on her special, and she said, I had a hard time writing material. And I said, well, you have this podcast, and then what I need you to do is go to your podcast, and every hard episode, that's where the material is.
Everyone you thought was a hard time, that's where the good shit is. So, if I've given you a hard time, this is the good shit. All right,
Speaker 2
thank you very much.
Speaker 1
Thank you.
Speaker 2
Take it easy. Bye. That's Chris Rock. His new movie, Misty Green, will be in theaters on October 9th. To watch this interview and many others, subscribe to our YouTube channel at youtube.com slash at symbol the interview podcast. This conversation was produced by Paola Newdorf. It was edited by Alison Benedict. Mixing by Sophia Landman. Original music by Dan Powell, Rowan Nemisto, and Marion Lozano.
The rest of the team is Priya Matthew, Seth Kelly, Joe Bilmunoz, Wyatt Orme, Jeremy Rocklin, Gavi Contreras, and Kathleen O'Brien. Our executive producer is Alison Benedict. I'm David Marchese, and this is the interview from The New York Times.