Smash Notes
Conan O'Brien
People
Speaker 1
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Speaker 2
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Speaker 1
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Speaker 2
Yeah. The thing about Conan, Conan's, someone who I've known, boy, I remember when he and Greg Daniels came in, so I've known Conan For a long time.
Speaker 1
Some heavy hitters writers on that show, wow.
Speaker 2
Yeah. Rick Daniels
Speaker 1
from The Office and from, King of the Hill.
Speaker 2
Yeah, and Conan, and these guys, you know, there's just, you meet a lot of Ivy League guys. Like, you went to Arizona City College, right?
Speaker 1
I went to Devry, what was it you went to? Yeah,
Speaker 2
I went to, San Francisco State, the Gators.
Speaker 1
It was sort of like, Harvard or almost no name.
Speaker 2
Yeah.
Speaker 1
Because you get there and you're like, oh, you went to Harvard and you're dumb like me.
Speaker 2
And Conan wasn't like that. I mean, Conan doesn't wear, one thing, same with Kevin Nealon, Conan does not wear the fact that he's 6'6 on his sleeve. Like he's, there's no sense of him being a big guy. Some big guys are tall guys, like Greg Holtzman. You gotta tell, they're sort of carrying.
Speaker 1
Yeah. Nealon is so tall, too, it's embarrassing. I don't even like hanging out with tall people, for real. I hate it. I was with Barkley in Arizona cause Charles Barkley used to play there and we went out one
Speaker 2
day. Hey, Charles Barkley.
Speaker 1
It's terrible,
Speaker 2
terrible. Sorry, Frank Alejandro. And
Speaker 1
I go, it's too tall. I thought, hilarious guy, but I can't look, I look shrimpy and I don't need it.
Speaker 2
Well, I know what you mean. I mean, going on the Conan O'Brien show, when Conan would come out, he's standing up, then Andy Richter would stand up. People don't realize Andy is 6'4".
Speaker 1
Oh, really? Conan's 6'6".
Speaker 2
So I'm like, you know, I start singing the Munchkin song or whatever.
Speaker 1
I mean, I haven't put those little parakeet things I sit on top of it, cause I'm really high up.
Like a bird.
Speaker 2
Oh, you do? Oh, yeah, yeah. And then I sit
Speaker 1
and I go.
Speaker 2
That's on your haunches. If you get on your haunches.
Speaker 1
Yeah, I go as high as I can and then, and I sit on Apple Box. But yeah, Conan's gonna be great. He's a fun dude to talk to. He's easy. He knows what he's doing. He knows how to talk.
Speaker 2
Conan is obviously, he has a huge podcast. He's a great conversationalist. we have dinner with him all the time, pre-COVID.
Speaker 1
Remember COVID?
Speaker 2
I know.
Speaker 1
This podcast may cause COVID.
Speaker 2
Hey, that's the whole idea, you go, I am so busy. It's just cause of COVID, I guess I'm a pop out a little podcast gang.
Speaker 1
I know, you almost have to do it now, it's so sickening.
Speaker 2
You have to do it. I met a comedian about six months ago, I won't mention his name, but he didn't have a podcast. And I go, are you shitting me? You do not have a podcast and you're in show business?
Speaker 1
You know, Fallon's going to come on, by the way, just talking. Schneider,
Speaker 2
Fallon. It's
Speaker 1
going to be great. Fallon
Speaker 2
is the ultimate. You got to laugh at us. Fallon is my, yeah, he's.
Speaker 1
Oh, we're not doing Fallon yet, but.
Speaker 2
Conan. Okay. Conan has produced more funny stuff than almost anyone in the history of American comedy. If you look at all the Team Coco stuff. He, he kind of stayed fairly evergreen. He stayed out of the intense politicization of comedy. So everything he does is evergreen. And my, my wife and son are obsessed with his travel shows to the point.
He does
Speaker 1
that too?
Speaker 2
Yeah, he goes around the world. Oh, he went to Coney, goes to Cuba and stuff. Yeah. You have to
Speaker 1
be smart. I would not know what to do over there.
Speaker 2
They watch him over and over again and it's pretty cool.
Speaker 1
Well, here he is, Conan O'Brien.
Speaker 2
I want to welcome the two, comedians, entertainers, performers that I've had dinner with the most in the last, say, seven, eight years since I relocated to LA, Conan O'Brien and David Spade. That's
Speaker 3
a high honor. Thank you.
Speaker 2
Yeah, it was, a lot of it was tedious, I'll be honest. See, I'm going to do the backpedaling that Conan does so well. I really, really like you, but, you know, it got a little, little boring.
Speaker 3
There were times, there were gaps in the energy. Sometimes the energy would drop, and, you're very restless, David.
Speaker 1
Oh, me? I thought you were going to say Dana.
Speaker 3
No, you get up a lot. Dana's gotten a lot better. Dana, Dana used to be very hard to talk to. Kevin Nealon used to be hard to talk to, but I've been working on both of them, and we have... Really? I actually, for the first time about a month ago, made eye contact with Kevin Nealon. No. And it was a huge... It just was a... This is something I've been working on since 1988.
An except forward. Wow. Yeah, an except forward. David, you and I don't hang as much.
Speaker 1
No, but that's okay.
Speaker 3
I
Speaker 1
say
Speaker 2
nice, I say nice
Speaker 1
things about you all the time, which is weird. Our
Speaker 2
last dinner together, I think, was Ted Sarandos, that guy runs something, Rob, who else, us three, and that was it, right? It was us
Speaker 3
three, and Ted Sarandos joined us. Yes. he kept
Speaker 2
pitching me shows, I'm like, Ted, I'm trying to eat!
Speaker 1
Just pass the edamame, my God.
Speaker 3
God damn
Speaker 2
it!
Speaker 3
He kept saying, Dana, whatever you want, he at one point held up one of those giant checks, it was already signed, and he said, just fill in the amount, and Dana was like, I'm eating!
Speaker 1
Like a publisher's clearinghouse
Speaker 2
check.
Speaker 3
I'm John Lovitz! Oh, and then, we're at that dinner, and we run into, yes, we run into Lovitz, and I love it, because Lovitz always does, no matter who he's with, my favorite thing is he was once standing with this very attractive woman, and I was talking to him, and in front of the woman, he looked at her, and then looked at me and went, jealous.
Jealous?
Speaker 1
Jealous. Jealous is a top five.
Speaker 3
It's a top five love it's, but he can be standing with a hobo. He can be standing with a shoeless hobo, and he often is, and I'll be talking, I'll be like, oh, hey, John, how are you? And he'll go, is my friend, he's homeless. And I'll say, oh, well, that's, that's too bad, John, sorry for, and he'll look at the friend, and then look at me and go, jealous.
Like, no, no, I'm really not jealous, no. His
Speaker 2
big move is the, he gets new sunglasses or has cool sunglasses, and that sets you up, nice sunglasses, they come down, and he says,
Speaker 1
jealous.
Speaker 3
Get to know me. He wanted that to be his, after, after the liar,
He was desperate for a catchphrase, and, and he, he, no, he really was, he really, and so I know one, one of them was, he really wanted to say, so you should get to know me, get to know me, and would say, it's okay, but,
Speaker 2
and then he had,
Speaker 3
and then he had another one, do you remember it, Dana?
Speaker 2
Goodbye, everybody, goodbye. Yes.
Speaker 3
Goodbye, everybody,
Speaker 1
goodbye.
Speaker 2
But that was a good one.
Speaker 1
That was a pretty
Speaker 2
good one. The whole sketch was built around the guy saying, Goodbye, everybody, goodbye. It's really
Speaker 1
a nothing sketch just to keep getting to that.
Speaker 3
Yes, and he would, he wanted, he wanted another catchphrase, because I think he saw merchandise, and he wanted, he was thinking ahead, and he didn't care what sketch you pitched him as long as it got to, what's the catchphrase? Does it get to, get to know me, or goodbye, everybody, goodbye.
Speaker 1
By the way, Conan, have you been in those read-throughs where someone's jamming a catchphrase down your gullet, and it's not clicking for 13 pages, and everyone's dead silent? Yes, yeah,
Speaker 3
one of my favorite, I have Lots of Saturday Night Live memories. and, some are the ones that people, you know, most people think, oh my god, you were there when U2 played, you were there when, you know, iconic rock bands playing. Neil
Speaker 2
Young, Springsteen, Tom Waits.
Speaker 3
And I've told this to Neil Young, it was the best live performance I ever saw on Saturday, Saturday Night Live. Keep on rockin'
Speaker 2
in the free world? Keep on
Speaker 3
rockin' in the free world, and I've never seen anything like it. It was, he, he, he, It's very hard. Lorne always used to say that, TV is the worst way to experience rock music. It's just the
Speaker 1
worst.
Speaker 3
TV is... TV is the worst way to experience rock and roll. Don't
Speaker 1
tell our musical guys. The second worst
Speaker 2
way is radio.
Speaker 3
It's all
Speaker 2
corporate formats.
Speaker 3
And the third, the third worst way is in a, in live, in an intimate setting. No, Lorne, that's the best.
Speaker 1
And if you have a can
Speaker 2
with a string and it's to a neighbor, it, it, it's like really, really bad.
Speaker 3
Yeah, but, so anyway, he, he, he said, but that was... I don't know what Neil Young did, but he transfixed everybody. It was, it was great. Well, Neil Young
Speaker 2
garage band, that, that, that's what pops is. I, I, actually Simpson,
Speaker 1
anyway.
Speaker 3
Oh, the, oh, you were there for that.
Speaker 1
No, I wa, I think I was gone, but I couldn't think. We did have a lot of good bands. I mean, we had Nirvana, we had Pearl Jam.
Speaker 3
But, you know, people always expect that that would be the memory that you would remem, that you would think of most. Right. Eric Clapton. And I would think, yeah, because when you're watching them rehearse, you can stand in 8H, which I know looks big on TV, but it's much smaller. That's even
Speaker 1
cooler.
Speaker 3
And, and when you're standing there at rehearsal and you're watching the greatest musicians, of, of the 20th century perform right there, it's quite stunning. It's quite amazing. But I still think read-throughs. That, those are the memories that are with me the most because they contain, PTSD. You know,
the, the, the, the,
Speaker 1
the,
Speaker 3
the good and the bad. And so if you have a sketch that's killing at read-through, you're delighted, but I think they say negative impulses affect you more than positive ones. It's like gambling.
Speaker 1
Yeah,
Speaker 3
and also, yeah, exactly. And also, we all know you don't see the people that are laughing in the crowd. You notice the people that aren't laughing. and, you guys have never had that, but trust me, it's no fun to have a nice moment. Yeah, let me explain it to you. I'll, I'll draw it for you. Sitting
Speaker 2
there, Conan, for, for forty-five minutes, say you, you haven't, you're not reading anything, and you know it's coming, some are killing, some are bombing. It's just very hard to control your energy and your emotions, because all of a sudden, Lorne does, and in walks Conan, and then you got to be on. Well, that's you got, see,
Speaker 3
I was not a performer. I was just a writer, so, I did not have...
Speaker 2
Yeah, I was in tiny things,
Speaker 3
but, but mostly you guys were the ones that had to be on. So what, the first thing you have to do when you're a writer, and, and one of the things that's so nerve-wracking about read-through, you've been up for two days, you haven't had a shower, you're, you're completely whacked out, you've written this sketch, and you're, you, you desperately want it to work.
The first thing you have to do is get to the performers that are in the sketch and tell them how to do the thing you want them to do. You know, you have to tell them, obviously, I'm not going to tell you if it's a church lady, I don't have to say boo to you, but if... Be sarcastic.
Speaker 1
No, no, but... It's going close, you have to say, hey, I'm going to be with 43 other writers that are going to run up to you right now and say how to do their sketch. Yeah,
Speaker 3
exactly, but you also have to get to David and say, David, in this one, you're, you're, you're, you know, cockney, you're, but you're also kind of sarcastic. or, or Dana, I've got to get to Dana and I've got to tell him really quickly, Dana, the idea in this is that you get on an elevator with Sting, and this is kind of how you're doing it.
it's that kind of, oh, I recognize you. Okay,
Speaker 2
well, how was Harvard? Then I just walk away.
Speaker 3
Exactly. No, you were very nice. Some people were quite dismissive. Can I just say
Speaker 2
for a second that the time before read-through, it's like Grand Central Station. People are running around, people are trying to get the scripts together, and especially with a host, Conan, you writing for a host who's got 55 things they have to read. So you have just maybe, what, 25 seconds to give them kind of a hint sometimes? Yeah,
Speaker 3
and you have to get to them, and it's intimidating because sometimes they are intimidating people. It's George Steinbrenner. You know, it's a guy who fires people for a living, and he's hosting the show that week, and you have to run up and say, you're a ballerina, and in what you do, and he's just like, get the hell out of my way.
Speaker 1
By the way, what about read-through? Then they look at you, and you're across the table shaking your head going, you
Speaker 3
Yeah, exactly. Well, then, but my, my, my, the memories that haunt me are if you've got a sketch that all relies on one turn of phrase, and that's the moment where everyone's gonna start laughing, and then everything else is funny because of that moment.
Speaker 2
Right.
Speaker 3
It's, it's like you've lined up 800 dominoes. And what happens is you hit the first one, and it, it falls and it hits the second one, but then that one misses the third. That's the sketch. So you know, you're three pages in, and someone says, "Really? Because this restaurant sells octopus." That's supposed to be the thing that sets, and there's no laugh, and you know that everything else
Speaker 1
isn't,
Speaker 3
isn't going to work. You just lit the firecracker that's supposed to set off every other firecracker and every other missile, and it goes.
Speaker 1
And just end it with 17
Speaker 2
pages. You kind of overwrote it.
Speaker 1
17, the worst possible. You look
Speaker 3
ahead, and Lauren's reading the stage direction, and it's silent. And then it's like, you know, they all then march into the mines. They go downstairs. He repeats, this is an octopus, Thor. And then he starts to read faster and faster. Really
Speaker 2
fast and swallows the words, yeah. And
Speaker 3
he checks out. Everyone in the room hates you. Everybody hates you because you've consigned them to 17 minutes. Of an octopus sketch, and the fuse didn't light in the first page, and you're screwed.
Speaker 2
That's what I
Speaker 3
remember more than anything.
Speaker 1
Sweating. Well,
Speaker 2
I, I, I was lucky enough to be on the show long enough that toward the last couple seasons, I never wanted to peek at read-through, because one time Al, Al Franken said to me,
Speaker 1
hey,
Speaker 2
you peek, you peeked at read-through, you know, I did it all out at read-through, and I never got back to that. So then if you know it's on, if it's a George Senior or Churchley, then you can kind of cruise into it, not worry about it. We'll get it there, don't you worry. Bonnie, Bonnie Turner will do something.
Speaker 3
Yeah, that reminds me, that reminds me of something David told me once that I never forgot, which is, I was there for David's audition for Saturday Night Live, and I remember that night very clearly, because I was sitting at a table with Lorne, and we were watching different people come up, and Apparently, David, you were told, you were given advice by Dennis Miller, which to me sounds like terrible advice.
But Dennis, just before you went on, said, you know, just remember, you don't want to, like, you don't want to, you don't want to kill too hard at your audition. And I was, when I, you know, because. It
Speaker 1
throws a red flag.
Speaker 3
Because, yeah, and I was thinking, no, kill at your audition.
Speaker 1
Of course.
Speaker 3
Kill a
Speaker 2
bit, for sure, yeah.
Speaker 3
But what does that mean, don't kill? I would want to. I don't know what
Speaker 1
it was. It was, it was Spudly, because, you know, he was like my favorite comic, and then he was with. Brillstein, and they helped me get on this young comedian special, which Marcy Klein saw or whatever. Chana, by the way, I hired a truck to back up. I thought it'd be funny, and now it's not. There's beeping. so Marcy, everyone's there, I guess, and then Dennis comes up backstage, how you doing, spud? And I go, I don't know, obviously shitting my pants.
He goes, don't worry, man, you don't want to kill too hard, you know? It's a red flag, you know, some polished road hack. And I go, right, so what, so don't do good? And then he like walks away, and I'm like, then they're like, and three, two. And so I go on, I'm like, am I not supposed to, you know? So I don't do that great, I think we all remember.
It was, what, what the lesson was, I think, is
They're going to look at your writing, you don't even really, I don't, I didn't realize this for a long time until I watched comics and liked them, that I could tell if someone had game when I go, oh, I like the way that joke is structured. I like the words in that one. I like whatever. And, and it was a little offbeat. I didn't see it coming, or it was a bit of a surprise.
Even if it wouldn't work, I go, that guy's good or something. And I think that's what he meant and put it in the worst possible way, but.
He was like, don't kill. And I'm like, I know I want to kill. I got to, that's all you knew that would work. You do well, and then you get hired.
Speaker 2
I think if someone comes in, this may be different than killing or not killing, but completely formed. I think if things are a little fragmented and not fully formed, then Lorne and the staff, you know, which piece of clay we can play with, we'll develop it, you know, as opposed to being completely locked into your thing. Right.
Speaker 3
It gives them a place to, it gives them a place to go. No, I see what Dennis was trying to say, but if I was going out to, to audition, and the last thing I heard was don't kill too hard, I'd be confused. Like sabotage or something. You know, also, I always,
Speaker 1
but it wasn't.
Speaker 3
Dennis and I, subsequently, every time I bump into Dennis or talk to him, he's delightful, but back, back in the eighties, I think he, you know, he just had that kind of cha-cha way of going at people.
Speaker 2
Sammy Dennis Jr.
Speaker 3
Yeah, but it's almost, and so he, and I think for some reason I was, I remember I was Quiet at Saturday Night Live for a long time. I'd be funny around the writers, and then when the performers would, when the performers would come around, I'd get real quiet, or if Lauren's there, I'd just listen, and I, I didn't shoot my mouth off. I was, I was, but I remembered, and I, and for some reason, maybe, I don't know, Dennis, I just feel like there was a period of time where he just was thought, I don't know about this Conesy guy, you know? So, I remember once, I remember one time, he, I said something, and we were over by the craft service table that, that leads into 8H, where
the food is, and I'm standing there by the food, and I'm, I don't know, I'm like, I'm 23, 24-year-old string bean, and, Dennis said something, and I went, yeah, well, blah, blah, blah. I just said something, and he took it the wrong way. He thought that I had taken, that made it, that I had dissed him some way, and I'll never forget what he said.
He went, oh, so Conesy takes a shot at Den Den. And I'm like, what? She goes, it's Betty
Speaker 2
Davis now.
Speaker 3
Yeah, I know that. Cozy took a shot at Denton. Gonna be a
Speaker 2
rough, fasten your seatbelts.
Speaker 3
Fasten your seatbelts. Gonna be a bumpy ride for Coco in the next couple of months with Denton on his ass. And I just thought, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, I didn't, well, okay, the, you know, the guns have been drawn. We'll, we'll see how this plays out.
Speaker 2
Okay, Carol. Hey, Spudlings, don't go out as Dickie Pryor. No one expects Sam Kennison. Last, land a couple and get out, okay? That's all it's about. Don't kill too hard, cause they'll resent you. I'm going to a, a theater. He's always best to go to a Broadway show. D
Speaker 1
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Speaker 1
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Now, I like that I explained to the guy from Harvard what, Dennis meant. I feel bad about that now. Conan, thank you for letting
Speaker 2
me. Yeah,
Speaker 3
I just... I thought it was
Speaker 2
Yale. Conan, did you notice in read-throughs, like, cause I went to community college, San Francisco State, and once in a while it'd be a Jack Handy sketch or something, and I would mispronounce a word, and I would hear little pockets, Yale, Brown, Cornell, Harvard, just little giggles. Probably that didn't happen, but I definitely felt my lack of education.
Like, I can talk to you about, you know, the Third Reich or the, you know, French Revolution, and it does seem like people who are highly educated have a bigger palate.
Speaker 3
No, I think that's in your head. I really, I really do think that's in your head. Well, I think I'm as smart
Speaker 2
as them. He never talks to me about that,
Speaker 1
Conan. He talks to me about the dumb stuff so I can understand it.
Speaker 3
That's right. Well, you call it the third rich. You didn't understand.
Speaker 1
I know all about the third rich. That was the first Conan
Speaker 2
that I probably perceived once and didn't happen again.
Speaker 3
Well, that's the, yeah, that's the other thing too is, I, I, if I could change one thing about, you know, if I could change one thing, it would be that nobody knew where I went to college because you guys know me, I'm, I'm, I don't think that's where my Sense of humor comes from, I think I'm, and, and I think there were times when people were like, oh, well, you know, Harvard guy.
Speaker 2
Christ sakes. Christ sakes. I agree. I agree with you. Yeah,
Speaker 3
Harvard guy over here, and you'd think, well, okay, the, it's not Hogwarts, it's not a magical place, it's a school, and I met some really smart people there. I also met some pretty dumb people there.
Speaker 2
Well, I, I think it's because, you were president of the National Lampoon.
Speaker 3
Harvard, Harvard Lampoon, yeah.
Speaker 2
Harvard National Lampoon, and you were elected two years in a row. I saw some notes about that. So I think it wasn't just the Harvard, it was that that embedded it.
Speaker 3
Yeah, I was, you know. But I don't
Speaker 2
consider you wearing your intellect on your sleeve at all.
Speaker 3
Is that what you mean? No, I try, I do my best to, to hide it. It's, it's something. What about
Speaker 1
that sweatshirt that said, I'm the best of the best? Was that a gift? I thought that was,
Speaker 3
I thought that was ironic. What about that
Speaker 2
sweatshirt that they've got Mensa they used to wear?
Speaker 1
I took a Mensa test, by the way, because my stepdad thought I was so smart, and I got the results. He goes, you know what, this is stupid. He crumpled it up.
Speaker 3
I had I, you know what, I think the mistake I made is when I, when I showed up at Saturday Night Live, I was wearing, the mortarboard on your head that you wear at graduation. And I walked around with a tassel and a diploma. What the fuck's a
Speaker 1
mortarboard?
Speaker 3
That's the thing that you wear on your head at graduation. The flat
Speaker 1
thing?
Speaker 2
Yes. I didn't know it was called a mortarboard. Jesus Christ. You had a semester at Arizona State Community College. Fucking mortarboard
Speaker 1
diaries, you did go to Hogwarts. David,
Speaker 2
did you go to college at all, Mr. Spade?
Speaker 1
In my, you know what, Dana? I have full senior credit in anthropology. Yeah, I went to Scottsdale Community, which is basically high school plus, yeah, and the artichokes, and then I went to Arizona State. By the way, Scottsdale was like my warm-up for ASU, and I go, I'll just cruise through this. And then I was like, Wait, this is hard. Now I got to go to a fucking ASU after this? This is supposed to be the layup, and then I got to ASU, and I was in a fraternity, and I have to say, and all the fraternity guys get mad at me, but I just don't think fraternities are a good idea in general.
Speaker 2
It was
Speaker 1
90% hazing and pouring paprika on my head and spray painting on my
Speaker 2
beat dance. Also,
Speaker 3
David, you're a fragile flower. I think of them making you do a keg stand and drink six quarts of vodka, and I think you would die immediately. I think you would die the second they had you do anything. I can't believe you survived that. They will use you
Speaker 2
as a prop to beat up the captain of a football team.
Speaker 1
I know that Dana and Conan know I'm a fragile dandelion, and then I go, well, at least it's within my tight friend group, and then I realize, like, I come off the world like some fucking hard-ass athlete, but really the world just kind of knows I am. I sit funny on Ellen, they're like right away going, what's happening?
Speaker 2
On your haunches.
Speaker 1
Yeah, I sit on my knees. Yeah, you sit on On your knees. At the
Speaker 3
restaurant we were at, well, you, you were sitting on your knees a lot and, and you'd get up and you'd walk around. Stretch,
Speaker 2
stretch out. You
Speaker 3
were on a lot, you were doing a lot of cocaine at the restaurant. Can I
Speaker 2
ask you guys a question?
Speaker 3
Yeah.
Speaker 1
I had cocaine mixed with, the second booster. I did not do well with cocaine.
Speaker 2
I did it once. Oh, Dana,
Speaker 1
that's too bad. Then I burst
Speaker 2
into tears like a half hour later. Then I did it the second time, drove to the comedy club and said, they all hate me, all the other, everyone hates me and I drove back home. That was the second. I only did it twice.
Speaker 1
Yeah.
Speaker 3
I, I look at both of you and I'm going to include myself in this. I'm going to look at all three of us. Cause I never did it, and I always just knew I am not the personality type that needs to be artificially revved up.
Speaker 2
Yeah, that you want to, you need to calm down. I,
Speaker 3
I saw a doctor, yeah, I mean, you guys saw me at SNL, and I was always grinding my hands together, practically starting a fire with, with my knuckles, and twi- In the Conan
Speaker 2
show, you would, you would, or, you know, late night, you would ride a bicycle to get your,
Speaker 1
yeah,
Speaker 3
yeah, and I would grind, I would grind my hands together and grind my teeth and shatter them because I was so, uptight, and the last thing in the world, no one's ever said, you know what you need, man? You need some cocaine. No one's ever said that to me, and- Conan,
Speaker 1
just to, for sure, interrupt you, the, Sorry, we're new at this. But when I was in community college, this comedian I like gave me a few bumps, you know? I'm using street lingo right now.
Speaker 2
Yeah, yeah, he
Speaker 1
bumped me up a little bit. A little sniffy jiffy, a little power flower. And so I'd do it, and then I liked it. I never did it before stage, but I liked it, and then I thought he did it, it was cool. And I was a little bit of a Count Gacula there for a while, and then I got, when I, and then I slowed down in college. But when I got to SNL, the only time I should be doing it, cause I had to stay up all night, I never did it once.
And I thought, I always regret that. No, I'm kidding. But I always thought, wouldn't that, wouldn't that be the time to be like, cause I'd be like yawn, I, I, I would get myself, I'd make myself get up at nine thirty just because I thought it was so weird to stay up all night every night. I wasn't used to it. And I'm like, this is so weird to be in New York.
And I, I wanted some semblance of anything normal. And it was very hard to go in and like, I don't think people at home know, they always hear you write, you know, Tuesday night, all night. But I would, you're allowed to go in at noon and write. It just, no one really does it. And I would write. That
Speaker 3
is a completely messed up thing. And I've asked, I've interviewed, you know, current cast members and I'll say, do you really still, that thing where you come in on Tuesday and everyone stays up until Wednesday night, you don't still do that, do you? And they'll say, yeah, it's kind of still there. And there are all these rumors that It started out, that it started in the seventies, and obviously it hasn't changed
Speaker 2
at all.
Speaker 3
And people were doing cocaine. Now, the group that I came in with, you know, Greg Daniels and Bob Odenkirk and Robert Smigel, we were all like getting, we were all getting our cholesterol checked. You know, we weren't, we weren't, we weren't guys that were, hey, how do we score something? No, we weren't
Speaker 2
partying either. No,
Speaker 3
none of us, none of us were, and, and, and, you know, clearly, there are famous cast members that did, but for the most part, it was a very I remember going into Tom Davis's office once, and at like one o'clock in the afternoon, and he had a bottle, yeah, got a hilarious guy, a wonderfully sweet guy, but he had a bottle of red wine on his desk, and he was drinking red wine at like one o'clock in the afternoon, and I remember being scandalized, you know, and red wine is nothing, you know, and I was like, what? It was like,
Speaker 2
madman, if you know the reference, just have a little, Tom Collins or whatever. Yeah,
Speaker 3
exactly, but I don't, I don't, we were not those people, but we still stayed up for whatever it was, thirty-five hours in a row, because that was ingrained, it had been institutionalized in seventy-five. That
Speaker 2
meant you care, that means you're working hard. Schneider
Speaker 1
loved it. Schneider would stay up and eat where his boxers, and I'd go, that's enough. But let
Speaker 2
me, let me ask you a question, Conan, or do you have a story there, David? Sorry.
Speaker 1
No, just that we would write, and I would go home. Because I wanted to, and you know, Cohen, I don't think people know also when you're writing on a legal pad, you can't, the girls were like madmen, they were typing up four girls in a room. Remember Claire and everyone? Yep,
Speaker 3
sure.
Speaker 1
Type up
Speaker 2
and
Speaker 1
a sketch, and I didn't know how to write sketch format, so I'd write it out with, this guy says this, and do it as close as I could, and put a little stage direction. And then I'd go home, and then I'd finish it or something, and I'd have to drive a cab back to hand it in, then a cab back home to sleep two hours, then come back. It was such a weird process, but I couldn't email stuff in, that would've been fucking great.
And then they would do it for me, and sometimes they would do it a little wrong, you know, cause you want to go over it one more time, but you have to drive in to go over it again before it went in the packet for read-through. And sometimes a little teensy mistake like that would, like you said, screw everything up.
Speaker 2
Let me ask Conan a question, I just want, cause you were there as a writer. To me, as a cast member going through, I remember on Tuesday early evening, The writers are hanging out in the writers' room. A lot of food's being ordered, and a lot of talk about sports, anything but the, the task at hand.
Speaker 1
Anything but, you're right.
Speaker 3
And then there's just
Speaker 2
hours and hours of just subconscious work, I guess, and pressure, because sometimes I would leave as a baby at 3 a.m., and you guys would still be there leaning back in your chairs, picking on some, you know, tacos or whatever, and then I'd, I'd find out later they got done, but I mean, what, what, I mean, what did you think about that six hours Tuesday evening that was kind of...
Oh,
Speaker 3
those are the, you know, those are the dark times. I, I, I would get very, very... Like
Speaker 2
I got nothing, nothing's happening.
Speaker 3
I got nothing, and I, I shouldn't be doing this for a living, and I'm afra... Seriously, I, I, I, I would have some kind of, I would say at least
on any second, you know, not every week, every Tuesday night that I was writing, but I'd say at least fifty percent of them I'd have a profound collapse, mental collapse, because what happens is you hear people Everyone else has a good idea, and you hear Frank and laughing,
and you hear big gales of laughter coming from other rooms, and I remember very much, you know, sometimes, thinking, yeah, this isn't what I'm supposed to do, I don't know what I'm supposed to do,
and then you snap out of it, but, a lot of waiting for the commissary to open so you could get breakfast, and it would open at like seven o'clock in the morning, and that's when you could go and get, you know, a bagel with some bacon on it and drink a cup of coffee. Yeah, it was really, it was... But
Speaker 1
Conan, do you ever say like, I mean, in your head, like I used to think, I don't think of it then, but what are the chances you're going to think of a Bit every week, a sketch that everyone will talk about. It's just such an impossibility. Sometimes I would jump on with someone that had a good idea and they needed help, and I'll write it with you.
Just to get my name on something because I wanted to feel useful there, not get fired, but I would blank out. I'd also hear Smigel and Sandler cracking up in the office next to mine, you know, it was connected to mine. I'd be like, fuck, I'm so jealous, they're killing it.
Speaker 3
Sandler was a guy who most people when they show up, are somewhat nervous. and I remember, you know, I remember David, you like walking office to office and saying, hey guys, you know, what are you, what are you guys working on? And I remembered, I remembered very well, Chris Rock, cause he showed up when I was there. And when he would first He was very quiet and very
Speaker 1
sweet guy.
Speaker 3
Yeah, very sweet, very quiet, and not the Chris Rock that
Speaker 2
on stage that
Speaker 3
people see on stage, who is the most confident man in the world. He's kind of asking, what do you, I don't know, what are you guys working on? Yeah, I don't really know. I don't really know. and that was the energy people had. Sandler, the second he showed up, was just so happy and enthusiastic about everything. And he'd be like, oh, let's get milkshakes.
Let's get milkshakes. Yeah. You know, and he would be doing bits and just laughing his ass off. And I thought he's, he's so comfortable. He's kind of confident
Speaker 1
about it. Yeah. Yeah, he was
Speaker 3
so confident that he was, I think he was one of those guys who was like, I'm going to be a big star and let's get started. This is going to be fun.
Speaker 1
It's almost like it wasn't even a possibility that he wouldn't be because every, also everything was clicking so fast. Like people, Smigel, Downey, Me, you guys, we'd all laugh at what he's doing, and it was so different and off what I would think about in my own head that I was like, wow, that's cool. He's got this whole persona, and then he throw, they throw it into Iraqi Pete, or they throw it into some bit, you know, and you'd see pieces of it, and then you go, shit, they're buying it, they're buying, they're buying more and more, and he'd just go, I'm gonna write an update, I'm gonna write a song, I'm gonna write another update, and just keep going, and they were
working.
Speaker 2
But he did have a period where there was, I, I think he was inevitable and really confident, but he did have a period where he was, I, I don't, not sure if I remember it correctly, but I think at one point Lorne will kind of feel somewhat out. Dana, Adam, what, what do you, you think that's going to do? Cause when Adam first came out with the, it didn't always kill.
And I remember one time in the hallway near the makeup room, I had a office over there on 8H, and I came out in the hallway, and he was leaning back against the, and this was not normal Adam. He looked emotional and almost like he was going to cry
Speaker 3
because
Speaker 2
his sketch had gotten cut. And, as I remember it, I gave him a pep talk. I never forgot that. But, he, he did, he was 23 when he got on the show. But also
Speaker 3
remember, I don't think, people at the network weren't, I don't think, they weren't thrilled. and, and that's another thing. Yeah, what happens is that stuff, there's revisionist history, you know, what happens, you know, later on, now, Everybody loves Norm, but they really didn't. You know, he, they, they really, there was a lot of, there was a, yeah, he got fired and, and, and Adam, there were people at the network that really weren't supportive of Adam.
Didn't, didn't get
Speaker 2
him. Yeah.
Speaker 3
Yeah, and I think Lorne was probably get some pressure, like, what's with the Adam guy? And you think, it's just so funny how later on, to anyone listening right now, everything seems inevitable. Everything seems, you know, it's the way people read history. They read history and they think, well, of course, Franklin Roosevelt became president because he's Franklin Roosevelt.
And of course, he be, he was president like four times. No, it's not inevitable. It can go a million different ways. And at the time, there are a lot of people, you know, who are Later on, you know, I mean, I remember, Farley, I was there when he was waiting outside Lauren's office to get his interview, and Lauren had him waiting for like two days.
And I was, I was just talking to Farley and doing bits with him. And I, one point I took him around the, the, I took him around, 8H, and I was pretending that I was a big shot and saying like, and so there'd be a crane that was already going up, and I'd be like, Joe, get that crane up. And the crane would be going up anyway. And, I was goofing around with Farley, and he was, he was laughing so hard.
He was such a, immediately great, sweet guy. But, you know, I think he was, when he first came on, he was nervous, and I remembered it really turning around when, I think, Jim Downey wrote the Chippendale sketch, and suddenly it's, oh, he's...
Speaker 2
With Patrick Swayze. With Patrick
Speaker 3
Swayze, and it's this... That
Speaker 1
was one of the top ever Knowing right off the bat, like standing ten feet away going, this is like one for the books.
Speaker 3
Yeah, yeah, yeah, this is, this is, and you knew just, okay, this is, I want to be on the floor when that thing happens because, that's going to be a tsunami.
Speaker 2
To be a big guy like Chris was at that point, and he was so athletic and so physical, and to see a, a guy, his weight move like that, and so it, it just blew the roof off. You know, back to misunderstanding Sandler for a second, I remember Sandy Warnick, his manager at the time, and he, he said, he's such a good looking kid, I don't know why he does all that goofy stuff.
You know, so you're right. Things...
Speaker 1
He did have the girls right away. But
Speaker 3
you know what's interesting about, about Adam? Adam said this to me once. You mean
Speaker 1
they liked him.
Speaker 3
One of the things that, fascinated me...
Speaker 1
He pulled me aside, he said, Conan, hey, do ya wee.
Speaker 3
Oh, cha-cha-cha-cha.
Speaker 2
that means I like you, let's get lunch.
Speaker 3
It's so funny, cause he lives, right up the street, and he's... He would, he'd come by my, he comes by my house, and, you know, he'll lit, he'll shout outside the house, Conan! Conan! And...
Speaker 1
He's got the best yell voice, too.
Speaker 3
But I guess one of the things that I never, he said this to me, and it really fascinated me, I asked him, like, who his idol was at the time, and I thought it was gonna be a comedy person, and he looked at me and he said, James Caan. And I was like, James Caan, like James Caan, the, the, you know, godfather. Yeah. And then I saw it, like, which is Adam has that, he, he can channel that.
He has that, and, and you know from his dramatic roles, he can kill it. He can lock eyes with somebody. he can sell it. He can, he has that energy.
Speaker 1
he has a tough guy energy too. He has a tough
Speaker 3
guy energy. And
Speaker 2
he's,
Speaker 3
so he's doing all this stuff that like, I can kind of see what Sandy Warnick's talking about, which is he probably thought, here's this good looking kid with real acting chops. And why is he dressed like a baby going, you know, and, and it's,
But Adam knew what he was doing.
Speaker 2
I remember Adam when he was not, he'd not done a movie yet. He was starting to do well in the show. And I remember him saying, yeah, I love Smigel. I'm going to put him in all my movies. I remember thinking, oh, wow, all your movies. How many? Oh, about 70.
Speaker 1
But Conan, you were saying like when you see him in the hallway standing there, we've all been there where you go, you're newer. And everything hasn't clicked for him yet. And he's probably in his head going, what am I doing? Am I any good? Like, is this shit too weird? Am I as good as these guys?
Speaker 3
Everybody has that. I think, I think about this sometimes with Saturday Night Live today, which is I'm always grateful that I, that things happen to me when they happen to me.
you know, when you think about it, our staff, especially when I first showed up, the staff we were working with was really small, you know, by today's standards. It was, when I first showed up, it's, it's, there's, there's like, and I've seen group pictures of the staff, and it's Dana, Phil, you know, Kevin, Jan, Nora, Victoria. There's like, there's like seven of you, and, and, and John Lovitz, and you think, it really does look like the cast of Gilligan's Island, and that was the entire cast, and I think, in a way, everybody was in almost everything, because they had to be.
Speaker 2
Yeah, you were constantly in the show.
Speaker 3
And now, I'm, always, you know, Hearing about, okay, there's, you know, Cecily Strong, Bowen Yang, so you'd be like, great, great, I got it. But then you realize there's, there's 35 other people. and that with that many staff, I think it would be hard, I think it's maybe must be more challenging for the writers. And can you imagine being on that staff now, and thinking, how do I get on the air? And also they have guest stars now.
We never, we would do that once in a blue moon, but...
Speaker 2
Dana Aykroyd came in and did Bob Dole, and that was like a big thing. I would have been
Speaker 1
livid as, as a cast member. Just think, Cohen, when we were there, we were sort of overlapping with Dana and Dennis and Lovitz and, when we all came in. And it was pretty full then. And also Franken was available, you know, there's a lot of people that do stuff. And it's hard to,
I don't even know what to find. Well, no, it's
Speaker 3
hard, it's harder. It's hard to pop. And it's like, I think if you're playing on a basketball game and the, and there's fif, and there's thirty-five benches and twelve players on each bench, you know, your chances of getting in the game are, are, are, I would think be, be much tougher. So. You can't
Speaker 2
beat down the, the innate fear and terror and uncomfortableness of doing that show unless you get on air. It's very hard to get, because how do you try not to try? And that's, so it's, it took, it took me eighty shows, I think, to get out of my head, you know? Right.
Speaker 3
And I think that's why, and, and clearly they keep finding really great, talented people, but I would think it would be so much harder if you haven't found your foothold right away, if you haven't found your niche right away, like I would imagine it being I, I, I would feel for a cast member now because I think, man, that's a, that's a challenge to pop.
You
Speaker 1
have to have a clear niche. Like if we have, I was sort of sarcastic, you know, Chris was this, Adam was doing this. So at least you have that. Then you sort of go, oh, I'm not just a one trick pony. Anyway, long story short, I am. But at, at the time, I
Speaker 2
was, I was like, I can do
Speaker 1
other stuff. And then they go, okay, what? And I go, I don't know. But, it may be for the writers it might be easier because you have more people to cast, but you're, it's also hard in a new world to say, can you, can Dana play a girl? No, you can't do that. Or if you're Asian, if you're Korean, are you allowed to play Japanese? Like there's so many, there's a new world where Things are offensive, and on a show like SNL, are you still allowed to be goofy and do impressions? And they must have one more...
Speaker 2
There's stuff I, I, I was involved in that could never be on today. I don't even want to mention it, but it was, the, the, the sketch, at one point we had Candice Bergen, Bergen on, and she kind of talked about how it was, you know, maybe, maybe a little not politically correct. But do you guys think that, like, Saturday Night Live today, it's, it's easy to get into grumpy old man-itis, like, oh, we did it this way.
Because I remember running into Sid Caesar in an airport, and I could tell he was sort of bitter that it's not, you know, SNL's not that good, we did it better. Does, does art, is art always just built for its time? I mean, my father just hated the Beatles and then loved them later. It's just kind of an interesting idea of, like, is art always Andy Warhol in 1962 or whatever, Saturday Night Live is exactly where it's supposed to be culturally, or do you have any issues with it?
Speaker 3
I don't have, I don't, I made a promise to myself a long time ago. Not be happy judging it. To, well, I made a promise that, that there are things I'm going to get and things I'm not going to get, but that,
be happy. I'm very, I'm very happy that I got to do what I got to do at the time that I got to do it. And I make a real effort. There are some things I don't understand, or there'll be something that people really love that doesn't click with me, but I think for the most part, if Something's getting a lot of likes. if something's getting a lot of traction online and I look it up and it's something from, you know, a recent Saturday Night Live, I'll look it up and, you know, it's, it's, you know, Chris Redd doing Kanye, and I'll be like, oh, that's really funny.
That is, if something's getting traction, it's usually for a reason. And, and yes, there's a lot that's different about, that can be different about the show now, but I do very much try and remind myself that it's not worse or better, it's just different. It's just a completely different time. Well, Steve Higgins
Speaker 2
told me that, I don't know if, he just said that Lorne wrote the Constitution. This is his words. And then it sort of evolves. It's a living document, in a sense. And so today, it, it is what it is. But you're right, I think funny is still funny.
Speaker 3
You know what's so funny, though? And now, the thing now that I... Totally was not happening when I was there, was this business of writers dating movie stars and...
Yeah, where were you? And I just think about, wouldn't that be really funny if... I can picture me and Greg Daniels and Robert Smigel in 1989, if, With Candy Bergen. If I, you know, if I was walking around and I, you know, I...
Speaker 2
Yeah, it's amazing.
Speaker 3
I had Madonna on my arm, and I was like, guys, guys, I, you know, I, please, let me in the restaurant. Where, you know, and people were like, Conan, Conan, this way, Madonna, you know, and it's just like... It's so funny, and I'm picturing, you know...
Speaker 1
She's bragging about a cold opening you wrote.
Speaker 3
Yeah, yeah, exactly. And, and, and, and, you know, nerdy... And nerdy Greg Daniels, and he's got, you know, he's got, Melanie Griffith on his arm, and he's like, please, please, move aside, you know. I remember,
I, I, I think it was for the movie Sex, Lies, and Videotape. I think Andy McDowell was on the show. I heard of this one. She's so gorgeous, and it was my birthday, and I didn't even know how she knew, but I was back in my office grinding away, and all of a sudden the door opened, and she walked in with a cake. Grinding away? With, with, yeah, with, she walked in with a cake with candles on it and sang happy birthday, and like gave me a hug, and I, my soul left my body and never came back.
I'm soulless. I have, I've never had my, I've never, I've never had a soul in my body since that moment. We didn't do
Speaker 2
drugs, we didn't have women, we just were there all night. That's
Speaker 3
my racy story is that Andy McDowell very sweetly blew out the birthday candles on my cake, and, and, wasn't that a nice memory? I'm not, I, I wasn't sleeping with anyone famous. I, I wasn't, you know, I wasn't being hounded by the paparazzi. so that's a world, that's a way that stand-up life has changed where, you know, the, the third assistant director on the show is, is, is going out, you know, with, you know, Megan Thee Stallion.
But we had
Speaker 2
our work in front of us, and then we were, we were behind the facade, but it seems to me that fame is talent now. Like I, you can be critical or judgmental, this, this person's advocating fame or procuring fame, but it, it's its own talent, and it's its own power. I, I don't know, it's, but that would make, I mean, I don't want to judge it, it just seems like.
Speaker 3
I think you just did. Yeah,
Speaker 1
you know, about the new changes that you make and miss, miss a lot of shows, like Conan, you weren't allowed to miss shows, no one's allowed to miss anything.
Speaker 3
Yeah.
Speaker 1
This is a grumpy old man thing for sure, but I was jealous that I found out, you know, people would take huge chunks of time off. If they felt like it, they just said, let's do the movie or
Speaker 3
something. Well, that was one of the things that's kind of mind boggling now is the show starts in October of seventy five and immediately Chevy Chase becomes the biggest star in America. And like a year later, he says, well, it's either continue doing Saturday Night Live or make a movie. I guess I got to go make this movie. So goodbye, Saturday Night Live.
And you think, no, that's not what you, now it's a different world. Now it's go make your movie and then come back. you can have, you can, you can do both. And do
Speaker 2
commercials. It's incredible.
Speaker 3
Exactly. So, so I think there was a, there was clearly a different, the, I almost think the rules were different or people, people didn't.
Speaker 1
I couldn't do a Super Bowl commercial when I was two, three years in. They just said no. I didn't even know they could, but that was part of the deal.
Speaker 3
Were you offered one, or are you asked to do a Super Bowl commercial, and, and, and all the com- No, I had some good ideas for
Speaker 1
it. I had a good idea. Your
Speaker 2
agent called me funny
Speaker 1
if I was in one. No, I got a Diet Pepsi, and, and it was good money. Obviously, I was gonna say, I didn't know what you made when you started. I think I got nine hundred a week to write, and, and the Pepsi commercial, I think it was two hundred fifty grand, and then I just, it trickled back down to me. They say, that's not what we do, or something, and I'm like,
Speaker 2
what do we, what, you got a mouse in your pocket? We don't make money for working six hours.
Speaker 1
It was a, it was a real crusher, because I wasn't getting on much, I didn't even know I had a future there, and I thought, wow, at least I'll get one click off this, and, Luckily, I hung in there, and I mean, luckily I stayed and worked and ultimately made some money, but, but that was a real kick in the nuts.
Speaker 2
We didn't do it. I was offered a giant Taco Bell thing right as I came on. I was offered a giant
Speaker 1
taco once.
Speaker 2
And I asked Conan, should I do the Taco Bell commercial? I told him the number, and he said, absolutely not. I'll never forget that.
Speaker 1
Conan killed it?
Speaker 3
Yeah, I had that kind of power back then.
Speaker 2
Don't you love it when people say, this is what you said? I had a guy do stuff I said in 1979. That's never right. And I remember you said that you were going there, and then I remember, I was like, 45 years ago, you get to decide what I said?
Speaker 3
You know what's so funny? what happens once you become a known person is that other people add you into stories that you weren't in in the first place, because it makes it a better story. Funny. So I went back to a, I went back to a, I went back to a reunion once at my high school, and this guy there was like, hey, Conan, you know, remember, you know, back in the, you know,
Speaker 2
and
Speaker 3
he was like, we had some crazy times, and I was like, I, I was thinking, I don't even know who this guy is. And then, and then he said, hey, remember the time you and I broke into Stevens Market? We broke into Stevens Market and we stole all those beers, but the cops showed up, so we went out the back, and you went left and I went right, and I got nabbed, and you took the beers, you fucker, haha, but I didn't squeal on you.
And you know what? I didn't drink until I was like 28. I've never committed a crime in my life. I didn't break into a liquor store, you know, the, the, the. You know that story's on heavy rotation, too. No, no, and the thing is, what happens after a while is you get tired saying no. You did that with someone else, but it's been a lot of years and a lot of beers since then, and, and then.
Speaker 1
Years and beers. So
Speaker 3
you added,
Speaker 1
you added me
Speaker 3
in, and I started to think, gee, that. I don't know, it's made me read history differently. Like when I read a history book now and they say, oh, you know, Lincoln, I remember a firsthand account. I remember Lincoln once, I said to him, you know, something and he said, what's that? And he knocked me right on my ass. And then I stood up and I knocked him on his ass and he said, you're a better man than I.
And I think, I don't think any of that happened. I think you just added Abraham Lincoln to your story.
Speaker 2
I was at a restaurant early 1980s. I saw the guy doing that to Jimmy Stewart. And I, you could tell that Jimmy Stewart was getting really impatient. And remember that time, you know, in high school, we did this call, the same old thing. And Stewart stood up and said, I don't understand a fucking word you're saying.
Speaker 3
Is that true?
Speaker 2
No, I just did that so I could get to Stewart's swearing. Oh,
Speaker 3
come on. Yeah, that
Speaker 1
was a good one, a good scenario, though. I
Speaker 3
wanted to believe that was true. I wanted to
Speaker 2
believe it. I set you up. Yeah,
Speaker 3
yeah, yeah.
Speaker 1
By the way, by the way, Conan was nice to me when I got there. Conan, I have to make sure I tell everybody. No, Conan, I'm sure you can be a prick. I don't see it. Conan's a sensitive
Speaker 2
person.
Speaker 1
I was there, and Conan said, as a hazing, you know, this was right before Conan died, his hair red, he said, go out and give me some hair dye, and you, Sandler, and Schneider. And, by the way, Conan, did you ever, does Jack, this is a weird question, does Jack Handy ever collaborate with the other writers, or does he always wrote it by himself?
Speaker 3
Maybe collaborated somewhat, but Jack Handy was stunning, cause he could go off. Talk about nice guys, what a genius.
I always envied him because he didn't need anybody else, you know, and, and he would go in his room, nicest guy, and then, and then you'd hear like typing, and then he'd come out and he'd say, well, good night, everybody, and we'd say, all right, sucker, we're going to be here for another nine hours. And, and, you know, and, and the next morning, his sketch is the funniest thing.
It, his sketches killed, I would say, ninety-five percent of the time. And...
Speaker 1
It's, it was an unreal slugging percentage. I would be baffled because I'm already just a newer writer, learning how to write sketches, trying not to reek up read through. And then knowing the level I, you know, when I look back of all you guys who was so much quality there, and then seeing like a, a Jack Haney sketch, which just is another move, not like better or worse, just like so smart and twisty, and you go.
What is he talking about? And right, he was like a mad scientist. He'd go in there and no one would bump with it. You're not going to bump with this buggy sketch. He had this
Speaker 3
idea once, and to me it was always the simplicity of the idea. That would make me think, why didn't I think of that? But it's, but his ideas were so elegant and so different. I actually got to be in this sketch. I'm there in the background, and you can, if you blink, you'll miss me. But it's James Bond's, you know, he, James Bond always makes his way to the Dr., you know, whatever, Dr.
No's. Oh, James,
Speaker 2
yeah, it's a lair.
Speaker 3
It's a lair. He always gets to the lair and shows up. And the lair is always the most amazing thing you've ever seen. And the guy's like, welcome, Mr. Bond. Well, this is James Bond shows up at the lair, but the lair still has three months to go before they're done working on it. Construction crew there, yeah. And so there's a lot of construction going on, and, and, so Dr.
No is really pissed because he's like, Mr. Bond, you're, we're not done yet. And he was like, well, so sorry, Blofeld, or whatever, you know, whatever the evil guy's name is. So sorry, Blofeld, sorry to crash your party. He goes, well, well, let me show you. Now, Mr. Bond, if you were to be here four months from now, I'd have led you over to this, this is going to be a tank with sharks.
Now, right now, they're still setting the forms. The cement's coming in a week, and everything was, and over here, there's going to be a laser, and Bond, Bond, Bond's giving him, Bond's giving him shit, and, and I was, I thought, oh my god, of course, these layers have to be built, and Bond is always showing up six months after it's been finished, and it looks fantastic.
Speaker 1
Of course,
Speaker 3
he would show up. Wow, they're halfway through. And it was great. It was great. You guys
Speaker 2
obviously, like his runners that were big were Frozen, Frozen Caveman Lawyer with Phil,
Speaker 3
Chooch's
Speaker 1
the Cat.
Speaker 2
One of the weirder ones I remember, maybe you remember it, but it was something about people talking to aliens and they were high up on this thing and somehow the aliens only wanted to talk about box office receipts of current movies. And it went on and on. The one that I had with Christopher Walken that Jack, I believe it was Jack Handy wrote is we're, we're landing on Earth and the, every time the landing gear would come down, it would like kill a farmer or something.
So we would come out and we'd be like, we come in peace, you know, and they'd be like, killers, killers. And then Walken would always go, let's. Get out of here! And then we'd go back and then we would land again, it would kill a farmer, we'd come out, yeah, let's get out of here! And then suddenly Chris and I are in this little tight wooden structure like a spacecraft, his, his face is an inch from my face, just crying with laughter from, let's get out of here,
Speaker 3
let's get out of here!
Speaker 2
No! Okay,
Speaker 3
the, the, no, no, what I would, my question would be,
and you guys could answer this better than I could, which is why I'm asking you, which hosts, when you were there, really made an impression on you, either positively or negatively, because it's such a strange thing that someone's introduced to your life, they show up on Monday night, And by the time you get to the show party on Saturday, you've been through this intense experience with them, and then they get spit out.
And yeah, with hosts like, you know, with, with, with a host like an Alec Baldwin or a Tom Hanks or a Christopher Walken, you know they're coming back in a year, but so often you never see that person again. You know what I mean? Yeah,
Speaker 2
Steve Guttenberg, you know, I remember he had a good show, but I don't think he ever came back. I do think that the athletes, Michael Jordan, Wayne Gretzky were big, and the older movie stars, for me, this is back in first season, I think, it was a Jack Handy sketch. Robert Mitchum and I were in a sketch together, and neither of us knew what the sketch was about.
We were beekeepers or something. So, just be, and Charlton Heston. I mean, those were the more surreal ones. Well, also,
Speaker 3
yeah, I mean, the, the, to me, And this was true when I was doing the late night show. Anytime I got to interact with someone who had been on TV or the movies when I was a kid, that blew my mind. So if, you know, you know, I, I, I remember in the hallway
chatting with Mickey Rooney and, and Mickey Rooney, there was a, there was a garment rack there, you know, that you can hang, and Mickey Rooney was very short and he jumped up while he was talking to me and grabbed the bars of the garment rack and started doing chin-ups as he was talking to me and then swinging kind of like a monkey. And I was, and he's like, you know, and, and, and I, I remember telling my dad, yeah, I hung out today with Mickey Rooney.
And my dad Couldn't process it because my dad was born in 1929, so...
Speaker 2
And Mickey was huge when he was ten then. Yeah. Biggest star in the world. So when Mickey
Speaker 3
Rooney, when, when my dad's eleven, the biggest name in the world is Mickey, is Mickey Rooney. Yes. and, and there's no bigger star in the world. As he liked to remind us. So when I call my dad and to, that, oh yeah, I was hanging out with them and, but then I had to tell him, Mickey, I gotta go, we gotta start the show, and so I blew him off.
He just couldn't. He couldn't comprehend, why would Mickey Rooney talk to you, you know? I have the
Speaker 2
same thing, but go ahead, finish that. No, no, no,
Speaker 3
no, that, it's me throwing it to you guys saying, you guys got to meet and work with these people more closely than I did. I was a writer. Conan,
Speaker 1
I have one too where you were there, one of my rock stars was of my life was Bowie and then, you know, he was music with Tin Machine and I told Dana, but you were there during my first receptionist was a sketch I couldn't get on and then we asked, we sent it to Bowie to be himself and come in and then I don't know who he is, whatever the hilarious jokes are and then we sent it to him in a Boston hotel and then he, Marcy goes, Bowie, call David Bowie, he's looking for you.
I go, call David
Speaker 3
Bowie?
Speaker 1
You know those kind of things? I think it was on a yellow piece of paper and it was in my box when I walked into work and you pull it out and it says, David Bowie, here's his fake name, the NBC, you know that stuff you get when you get messages? And I, I was so sick, nervous and I called him and he picked up, gave the fake name, then he picked up and then he's like, oh, this is the funniest sketch, I'd love to be in it.
I go, thanks. He goes, but can I play your part?
Speaker 3
Oh.
Speaker 1
And I go, oh, the receptionist? He goes, that's the funny part. Oh, I mean, me playing myself is boring. I mean, you could play me and I'll play you, your part. And I go, I don't think I can do that. It was so weird. Oh, so you had to say no. Yeah, and then he was weird about it. And then he didn't like it and he goes, all right, well, I'll see you at the show.
Speaker 3
Wow.
Speaker 1
And I go, and he hung up. And then, like you were saying just about that week, first I get to meet an idol. I don't think I knew him. Maybe I knew him, I met him once or twice before. And then I, and then I come back and now here are the good nights. I see him and I know there was some friction. Now I know, now I met Bowie and there's friction.
Some stormy past. So then when he leaves Good Nights, he goes, hey, I saw, I didn't really get what was going on. That's like a running sketch. And you know, I, I'm sorry. I should have said
Speaker 3
that. Yes. My experiences with him were that he was such a gentleman. And so, and so I get that he didn't know that it was a runner, that you can't, you can't, you can't call Dana, you know, and say, I'll do George Bush and, and you be the guy who comes into the room with the sandwich.
Speaker 1
Right. And it was one of those lessons of like, first of all, don't give a host nothing. You know, there was things, you know, they'd say, what does the host do in this? And, you know, you got to give him something to do. They don't, they won't pick the sketch. If it's all you and they don't do anything, you know, that kind of thing. So that was a classic example.
He just goes, that's not fun for me. And I got it. It was all selfish. I wanted him to be my sketch and I wanted to score. Do
Speaker 2
you ever, you have regret or things you say and it would bother you for a while and then later on you realize it was nothing? Because when Sting was on the show, We were coming down the elevator at the end of the show, and I, I got, I was hyped up cause it was Sting, and I, I, we came out, and there were all the people waiting at the bottom of the elevator, like a big mob.
So I put my, stoop, I put my arm around Sting and said, ladies and gentlemen, Sting. And then he grabbed me and kind of went, you know, with, with anger. So for years I thought he was mad at me, you know, until I ran into him later, you know, it, it would go through my head sometime. The only other funny moment, well, go ahead, comment on that.
Did you ever have, did you ever have your moment? Was he thinking you
Speaker 1
were, he didn't want to bring it up like he's getting enough attention? I
Speaker 2
think it was obnoxious, you know, you're just, you get nervous around famous people, and you can say or do stupid things. Conan?
Speaker 1
yeah,
Speaker 3
I, I, I definitely, but the thing is, that's in your head, and you're talking about it all these years later, and Sting forgot about it seconds after it happened. And I've had,
after all those years of doing the late night shows,
Speaker 2
I've had, I've
Speaker 3
had, no, I've had people come up to me and say, hey, I owe you an apology.
Speaker 2
And then
Speaker 3
they'll apologize, and I, they'll say, you know, I, I wasn't really prepared, or I had a little too much to drink before I came on, and I know it was, and, and, or it's like, and they'll say, like, I know you were really mad, and I,
Speaker 1
and I don't think,
Speaker 3
I don't, A, I don't have any memory of it, and I don't think, no, I, you're, I, I, I'm not mad at you, and I haven't, I don't even know what you're talking about. And so, and then they're really relieved. They're, they're like, oh my god, but then also probably possibly insulted. Like,
Speaker 2
they carried it around in pain for decades, and you're like, never
Speaker 1
happened.
Speaker 2
Well, we've had therapy now, so we know that we're wounded clowns in some level.
yeah.
Speaker 3
Sure. No, I'm not buying that. I, I chose that moment to look out the window.
Speaker 1
Yeah, you really did. That was a good one. I'm looking at Sandler's
Speaker 3
home right now. Beautiful. Yeah, I,
Speaker 1
well,
Speaker 2
I, if you're a sensitive instrument, which is a good thing to be if you're a performer, an actor, a comedian, and then it infiltrates your normal life and you process people, but everyone's...
Speaker 3
Okay, well, here's a thing that I think, you could both relate to, which is people... Their assumption would be that,
if we make fun of somebody or we tell a joke at someone's expense, that we don't really care how they feel. And the truth is...
Speaker 1
Or we don't like them. Yeah,
Speaker 3
and the truth is, you know, with... Yes, there are people you can tell a joke about who you really despise, who are awful people, or impressions you can do of someone. But for the most part, and I think this includes both of you, I think most people would be surprised At how much we don't want to hurt someone's feelings and that when you hear back from somebody, like I know there was pressure on you, Dana, cause you did such a great Johnny Carson impression and people would think like, oh, you're killing with your Johnny Carson impression cause it was so perfect, but you're, you're hyper worried the whole time that it might upset Johnny or feel unflattering to him,
Speaker 2
right? And it, and it did and it felt bad because I, when I did it and when I sat in that character, and it's been reinforced by Tom Hanks and Martin Short on this podcast, like that was the most comfortable I've been doing a sketch on that show. I didn't care if it got laughs. I was so comfortable being that, the charming Johnny. So the gentleman joins us for what you, you folks are home or watching a television.
So I, he was fine for a while and I would still be on his highlight reel and I would see Johnny. And then there was one that affected And then I never went on the show the last two years. I was, so I knew that I was out and it was,
Speaker 1
that was, that
Speaker 2
was really, really, unfortunate. I didn't like that. And, and someone told me that he would walk down the hall at NBC in Burbank and say, they're making fun of me now, it's time to go.
Speaker 3
Just yell
Speaker 2
it out. So,
Speaker 3
felt bad about that. I felt, I heard a, this was from,
the great Rick Ludwin, terrific executive who, NBC executive who loved, you know, loved SNL, loved Late Night. That was what he was in charge of and, and, and really good guy. And, and also the person who pretty much was responsible for keeping Seinfeld on the air, when it was in trouble in its first season or two. And so, lovely guy who passed away about two, two years ago or three years ago.
And, anyway, I bring him up because he, Used to also work the Carson Show, and he remembers having to go and tell Johnny, go into Johnny's dressing room and tell him, you know, Johnny, I talked to you about okay, you know, well, there's just gonna be a sketch at Saturday Night Live, and I do need to give you a heads up that, and that he would have to tell him, and that, and that, and that Johnny would say, well, I, you know, don't particularly think it's funny, but that's their right, their, that's, that's their right to do that.
and then, he, you know, it's so funny because you forget, because we think of him as just being on top of the world from 1962 to, to, what is it, 1991, he's just on top of the world.
Speaker 2
Yeah.
Speaker 3
And what we for, ninety-two, what we forget is that he's constantly,
like any comedian or any star, he's constantly
Afraid and on alert that, that they're, they're coming after me now. And so I read, I read this interview with Johnny Carson from 1980, and it was in Rolling Stone magazine, and he's talking about, the interviewer keeps saying, well, what do you think of Belushi, and what do you think of Aykroyd, and keeps asking about Saturday Night Live.
And, and what did you think of Animal House, and what did you think of, you know, Chevy, you know, and, and Johnny, you realize has been hearing from a lot of young people or whatever, that that's what's the cool thing now. And he was the cool thing from sixty-two to up to seventy-five, and not that he still wasn't great and revered, but I thought, wait, in 1980, he's worried about, he's, and he's taken a couple of shots at us now, you know, and how he thinks that the humor really, he doesn't, he thinks it's,
It's a little, kind of obnoxious, and, and he doesn't quite see it, and, he's, it's not his favorite thing, and then you realize that, okay, then eight years later, ten years later, the show is,
Speaker 1
yeah, directly
Speaker 3
kind of having fun at his expense. I mean, I, I didn't think of it, I just always thought of at that time, Johnny Carson is so secure, what does he care? You know what I mean? And it's just funny and silly, and your impression was, I thought, I thought affectionate, you know? I, I thought you, you loved, you loved Johnny. I loved being in that.
I thought it was affectionate, but.
Speaker 1
Yeah.
Speaker 2
I, I do think that in show business. But I know that
Speaker 3
there was a, there was a, there was a sketch, I think. I think, there was a sketch that was written that made him a little... Someone wrote a sketch where Johnny... Yeah,
Speaker 1
yeah.
Speaker 3
Yeah, where Johnny's trying to be cool to, to keep up with Arsenio, and,
and, and it, the toughest, the roughest part was Phil was playing the sidekick, Ed McMahon, and he was saying things like, he literally was chuckling and going, ha, ha, ha, peaked in the seventies.
Speaker 2
Old reference, lost, younger reference.
Speaker 1
No, old reference, lost on younger viewers. Old
Speaker 3
reference, lost on younger viewers, and you think, wow, if I was, okay, if, if there was a hot new sketch show now, and there was a guy playing Conan, and I'm just completely
Out of it, and I'm not up on what's happening now, and I'm, you know, which would, and I'm old, because I've been on TV too long, I would, it would hurt my,
Speaker 1
I wouldn't even come in the next day. It would really hurt my
Speaker 3
feelings and probably be deserved on some level. So it's, it's, it's, you can't have it both ways. But
Speaker 2
I'm interested in this idea that every performer becomes a caricature of themselves. And you can look at someone sometime and just think, is that that person or is that a celebrity impressionist doing that person? And it happens to everyone, and you have to keep a sense of humor about it. Well, you're so self-deprecating, you're always ahead of, ahead of the...
Speaker 3
Well, no, but, but I think that it's one of the things The three of us have a pretty good vantage point on, which is we've been at all the different stages, and then what you want to, what I always wanted to be at the stage I'm at now is be gracious about and, and kind of intrigued and curious about the young people coming up, because, I'm five seconds away from someone ripping me a new asshole for being too old.
So just try, try, be gracious about all of it. Well, I remember
Speaker 2
Sammy Davis Jr. on television, out of the blue going, I'm not going to be competitive with Michael Jackson anymore. You know, and he was like almost sixty.
Speaker 1
Oh, Sammy Davis, yeah. But I had a good time with Conan, and Conan would be a really great guest. Guys,
Speaker 3
I love talking to you. I look forward to us, getting a meal. Yes. That would be really nice. That
Speaker 2
would be fun.
Speaker 1
Yeah. We
Speaker 3
don't need, we don't need Sarandos this time. We don't need a Netflix guy. No,
Speaker 1
he was fun. You know, he was just padding. We move on now.
Speaker 3
We move on. It's just the, it's just the three of us next time. That's it. No,
Speaker 1
we had a blast, but we could do with us, and, we'll fight to see who pays. Won't be me. Okay, thanks, Conan. Okay,
Speaker 3
I, I do love you guys, and thank you for having me on. It's nice to have you. Let's have dinner
Speaker 2
soon. Goodbye. Check in next week where our guest will be Tom Hanks.
Fly on the Wall has been a presentation of Cadence 13.
Speaker 1
Please listen, then rate, review, and follow all episodes.
Speaker 2
Executive produced by Dana Carvey and David Spade, Chris Corcoran of Cadence 13, and Charlie Finan of Brillstein Entertainment. Production and engineering led by Greg Holtzman, Richard Cook, Sabrina Regan, and Chris Basil of Cadence 13.